yazooflesh wrote..

But now we are relegated to apologizing for trying to maintain some kind of semblance in the world?

Hey...I'm bout ready to take my ball and go home.

We seem to be fighting a losing battle...

I think you might be on to something there, Yazoo. [rollseyes]

Gee, I hate to bring economics into the picture, but:

crap! see image below....

I know this is the wrong place for that, but your comment about the losing battle, well....
we ARE a done deal, and our time at the top has passed.
There will be more and more angst, IMO, amongst particularly the males as their basis of power is further threatened/usurped.
We see it in the death grip the ?fraudsters/government/elite/bankers? have right now as the old structure crumbles.
THAT, IMO, is what the end of age, Mayan calendar is all about.
We are in a shift of ages, and there will be much 'gnashing of teeth' in the process.

Back to the subject at hand.....

Sloonie, see GE appliance etc. through a. Google search, you' re commenting based on old info that is experiencing significant change. ...

Pika-steph

I can assure I wasn't baiting here just trying to understand.

What Americans do in their own country is their own business but when one sees the slaughter of innocent children at that school......one seeks to understand the causes and reasons why particularly as it really isn't an isolated case.

I was interested to try and understand the culture of the American people.

Ten years ago I stayed with American friends in the San Fernando valley and at the time I asked them if they had guns in the house.

The answer was yes.......the guy had a rifle which was a gift from his deceased father which he received when he turned 21 (20 years earlier). He had no ammo for it but had keep it as a keep sake from his Dad. He had never even fired it.

As you well know America and Australia have had close ties for many years.

Anyway I hope you guys can sort the situation out.

Can I leave you with this article.......and it's my last comment on the matter.

Cheers

Reuters) - The National Rifle Association, the powerful U.S. gun lobby group, on Friday called for armed guards at every U.S. school and rejected the notion that curbs on weapons would protect children in the wake of last week's Connecticut school massacre.
In a rare press briefing, NRA Chief Executive Wayne LaPierre gave an impassioned speech that blamed the media for glorifying violence and perpetuating the idea that tighter gun restrictions would reduce mass shootings.

"They perpetuate the dangerous notion that one more gun ban — or one more law imposed on peaceful, lawful people — will protect us where 20,000 others have failed," LaPierre said at the event at a hotel near the White House.

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun."

His approach was rejected by gun control activists who have revived demands for a ban on assault rifles and big ammunition clips after the Newtown, Connecticut killings, which followed a series of mass shootings at schools and public places.

New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg said the NRA offered "a paranoid, dystopian vision" of a more violent country. "While they promote armed guards, they continue to oppose the most basic and common sense steps we can take to save lives - not only in schools, but in our movie theaters, malls, and streets," he said in a statement.

LaPierre, twice interrupted by hecklers who were hustled out, suggested a range of ways to prevent violence besides the school guard program, including better treatment of mental illness and cracking down on gory video games and films.

The NRA had largely been silent since last Friday, when 20-year-old Adam Lanza used a high-powered rifle to shoot dead 20 young children and six adults at close range at the Sandy Hook elementary school.

The massacre of so many children provoked national outrage that some see as marking a tipping point for sweeping federal legislation to restrict weapons and ammunition and a law requiring background checks on buyers before all gun purchases.

President Barack Obama has formed an interagency group led by his cabinet members to come up with specific proposals by January that could include legislation and executive action.

ARMING SCHOOLS

LaPierre, whose organization counts 4 million people as its members, said the United States should focus on quick action that would better arm schools.

He laid out a plan for a "National School Shield" and said former U.S. congressman Asa Hutchinson from Arkansas would head up the NRA's effort to develop a model security program for schools.

"I call on Congress today to act immediately, to appropriate whatever is necessary to put armed police officers in every school — and to do it now, to make sure that blanket of safety is in place when our children return to school in January," LaPierre said.

There are now about 10,000 armed guards in U.S. schools, most of them in middle and high schools. There are about 130,000 schools in the country.

Shooting deaths are common in the United States, where the right to own a gun is included in the Constitution.

Soon after the NRA's press briefing, news spread of another multiple shooting in Pennsylvania. The Altoona Mirror newspaper reported that four people including the shooter were killed and three police officers were wounded in Frankstown Township.

Hutchinson and the NRA officials took no questions after making statements at the 30-minute press event, which was interrupted twice by shouting protesters.

In Washington, some Democratic lawmakers who had not supported gun control said this week they were reconsidering. One, U.S. Representative John Yarmuth of Kentucky, apologized for his earlier silence on the issue.

On Friday, Yarmuth blasted the NRA and said it does not represent the views of its members. "Every American has the right to be safe from guns without carrying a gun. The only meaningful contribution the NRA made today was to the gun manufacturers in the form of free advertising,' he said.

Democratic lawmakers have pledged to reintroduce early next year a measure to reinstate a 1994 assault weapons ban that expired in 2004, among other reforms.

But there was no guarantee that any laws would change. Only one Republican, outgoing Senator Scott Brown, a moderate from Massachusetts who said he backed the assault weapons ban, has said he would support any tightening of gun regulations.

Medea Benjamin, co-director of the peace group Code Pink, who was one of the protesters escorted from the news conference, criticized the NRA and legislators. "If teachers can stand up to gunmen, Congress can stand up to the NRA," she said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/2....

Look, facts just are.

Wayne is right -- if there's an ******* with a gun your two options are shoot him or die.

A bad guy with a gun is only stopped by a good guy with a gun. Since you can't prevent the bad guy from getting a gun your choice is to be a victim or offer resistance.

You can wish it was otherwise, but you can't make it otherwise.

Tj98 wrote..

Sloonie, see GE appliance etc. through a. Google search, you' re commenting based on old info that is experiencing significant change. ...

Not sure I get you, Tj....the info is through 2011. The trend is intact, and though there may be some increase in some areas, I don't see us catching up to the kind of growth we are seeing in the BRICs...
Am I missing something?

So sad, so apparently school teachers should continue standing up to gunmen by cowering over their students while everyone is shot... And now Medea Benjamin wants congress to stand up to the NRA in the same way that these teachers "stood up" to the gunmen, while they were in reality defenseless and on the ground. I'm envisioning Congressmen cowering in corners of locked rooms while the bad guys brutalize the joint... So hard to imagine... But reminds me of how congress handled the banksters...

Sloonie I have not had the time to dig into this yet, but the anecdotal and reliable "print" evidence is significant-at least to me. :) Manufacturing is returning to the US on a scale that is at least gaining notice, so GDP growth by nation may be changing.... :).

Gotcha. Yes, it is increasing, but I think the baton has already been handed over,
Anyhow, this thread was another gun discussion, and I digressed, so .....

Here's a 14 year old "good guy" with a gun - anyone hear about this in the MSM? didn't think so:

http://www.federaljack.com/?p=178564

Happened on the 19th...

Quote:

Wayne is right -- if there's an ******* with a gun your two options are shoot him or die.

Ordinary teachers are not trained to respond against violent assaults. Without such training, I suspect the ordinary armed teacher would be a victim whether the opponent's weapon is a long gun, a handgun, a knife or a club. Firing at paper targets isn't enough.

Training should be recent to be effective. My martial arts days are long behind me, but I studied ju-jitsu and defended myself against knife, handgun, chain as well as hand/foot strikes. Tournaments are as real as I got in using the training.

If the safety of students against deranged assailants is to be properly addressed, then perhaps martial arts training is needed for P/E and more teachers need to take on martial arts instruction. I would trust an armed martial arts instructor to defend my child a lot more than an English instructor.

in my experience, a martial art i developed while in the marines called "shick-shack-pow" is the most effective at deterring handgun assaults.

:-) sorry, just trying to lighten the mood a tad.

r8r

gee check out the msm response to NRA. what did they expect ? the nra become advocates of a gun ban ?

You know, not too long ago every boy had a bb gun and took target practice on bottles and cans. We learned to respect guns, bc even getting shot by a bb hurts. My neighbor did not like me and shot me one day when I was riding my bike. And no we did not get the cops involved.. instead my dad talked to his. We learned that if we killed a sentient being without cause, it makes us hurt; one day I killed a squirrel with my Crossman 760, just for kicks. He fell down from the tree 10 feet from me and cried and writhed while bleeding out. I threw my gun down, buried him and felt like crap all day, with my conscience saying what did you do that for ? Never killed an innocent creature since. I can support killing for food, and that teaches young folks lessons too.. plus none of us would be here if we never killed for food over the last milleniums. So part of the solution is teaching kids about guns and life early on, not banning guns.


http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/....

M&N, I had about the same experience with the same BB gun. I had EXACTLY the same reaction also. I have no problem hunting for food but needless killing of anything makes no sense.

yeh duc that crossman was 'da bomb" back then. Accurate and cool looking.
I think there were even air bb pistols then but I never had one. I'm sure they are illegal in NJ now.

We learned about guns with whole-soul involvement, whereas kids today just killing things on video games do not experience guilt or actually see a life slip away. They become desensitized and God help us if big pharma has their way and puts more kids unnecessarily on psyche meds. There are so many other cool things to do on the computer, such as driving simulators or jet plane/ helicopter flight. These would be fun for me if I were a kid.

Quote:

I can assure I wasn't baiting here just trying to understand.

Yeah, i got that.

Quote:

Ordinary teachers are not trained to respond against violent assaults. Without such training, I suspect the ordinary armed teacher would be a victim whether the opponent's weapon is a long gun, a handgun, a knife or a club. Firing at paper targets isn't enough.

really? I was just thinking of handing some ARs out to teachers after Christmas Break.

Music and Duc - Count me in on that experience too. Just as bad was the fact that my dad had already had that talk with me and was (and still IS) an enormous animal-lover. Not only was my heart breaking for the squirrel, I was utterly horrified at the idea my father would be so angry and disappointed at me. Even thinking about it makes my heart hurt. After that our yard became a home for wayward squirrels....and birds...I was feeding them all.

This was an enormous lesson for me. Not that I wish that sort of trauma on kids, but I feel like that sort of lesson in morality is what is missing from kids' lives today because of this stupid and asinine fear of guns.

To this day, I wonder how I'm going to do if I ever have to shoot one of the little guys to eat and survive.

The stories from musicandnature & Pika reminds me of the Andy Griffith episode back in '63 "Opie the Birdman". Pretty much the same story, and I think this would be the normal reaction any child would have, if there is any empathy at all in them. I'm sure most of you remember this episode, but it should be shown to everyone involved in this debate. It is just as relevant today as it was nearly 50 years ago.

http://www.avclub.com/articles/the-andy-....

"Opie the Birdman" Complete Episode:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2e-U95JVV....

round, that was little before my time but I like some of those old-time shows, even the Waltons at times.
any other menz here have the 'nads to admit they watched the Waltons ? lol.

steph, yep I still remember the incident pretty clearly, after 38 years no less. pretty crazy. As you can tell by my moniker I am a lover of nature and animals too. Have not had to kill one for food..yet, but I do like venison.

I watched a movie over the summer where some sick father forced his kid to kill a foraging rabbit just for his own blood-lust. The kid grew and became a father too, then the older man forced his young grandson to do the same. The son then snapped and killed his dad. It was a rather odd movie, 'prolly a psycho-murder flick, but the title escapes me.

I've killed animals for food and I've also killed pests. You feel remorse for the squirrel because they're not typically pests, and because you were way under gunned by choosing a BB gun.

Even if I'm shooting a varmint/pest I make sure it's swift. Nothing deserves to suffer

First, Pier Morgan is a jackass. Craplow and he were on the Craplow show yesterday, bashing the NRA. Bet if you check Morgans Geneology, you will find a connection he wouldn't want public. William F. Buckley spoke in that educated English nonsense and he was part of an evil, warmonger, formerly socialist or communist group that posed as free enterprise, save the world conservatives. There are 2 kinds of conservatives, what were formerly known as economic and social liberals and those that believe we should be ruled from above. All the liberals that propose government control are Buckley conservatives. The USSR was a group of Buckley conservatives.

I haven't been on this subject much, but I have seen some figures cited. One is the gun murder rate in England as opposed to the US. What about the non gun murder rate? What about the texting while driving murder rate? What about the I'm going to blow your brains out or ram your ass, if you make me miss the next light because your texting at the red light murder rate? Venture the number of kids killed by texters is many times greater than the number of innocent kids killed by guns in a malicious manner. BAN TEXTING CELL PHONES?

What kind of protest would there be if they decided cell phones were dangerous and decided to ban them? I'm just talking about deaths. How many billions in damage done? How many people maimed and not killed? Bet the numbers are in the tens of thousands.

Years ago, I used to run into this Limey when I was out drinking. He told me once that if you wanted a gun in England, you had to have a license, keep the gun unloaded and the ammunition in another location, like in another room. One morning he heard this horrible noise and found a guy hacking down his door with an axe. He grabbed his gun and loaded it and threw down on the guy, who left in a very prompt manner. He was told by the cops that he had better be glad he didn't shoot the guy. He responded that not as glad as the guy he ran off.

Out of those statistics, how many of those murders are justfiable homocide? If you include gang members shooting members of other gangs opposing them, I bet it is close to 1/3. If not for guns, what would be the favored method of battle between gangs? Bombs? Fire? Poison? In fact, how many murders are there by poison that are not detected? How many are cops killing people threatening them.

Jstanley posted the real statistics. At current rates, it would take 3000 years to kill as many people as the Socialist heros, Mao and Stalin did each. State sanctioned murder is the type we should all worry about.

If there is an idea to put an armed guard in schools, why not hire some of these policemen, who retire at 50 and draw pensions to be assistant principals? There, you would have a trained gunman, who had experience in using a gun and have a partcipating member of the faculty. It isn't rocket science and there are administrative police officers that would love the job. A massive pool at that. He could also act as the school narc and not die early sitting on his ass retired at 50 or so.

Flaps - Yes. Undergunned and being very careless. But most importantly, as Karl just laid out in his newest Ticker, I had not yet experienced death close up and personal. Not to mention, I had had no intention of eating that squirrel. I was about 8 years old. Up until then, my experience with killing and death had been 'seen' on TV and in my own imagination while playing Cowboys & Indians in the back yard. My squirrel experience changed everything.

Now, as an adult, I've killed purposely and specifically to eat. I didn't HAVE to, because I can go to the store like anyone else. However, I love venison and I was raised with people who hunt. My first hunting experience wasn't much after my squirrel encounter. It prepared me. It made me grateful. It made me fully aware of the power I can wield even though I stand only 5' tall and weigh about 110 lbs. Take that power away from me and I am not just defenseless against all who are bigger than me, but I severely handicap my ability to EAT without the assistance of others....whether those others take the form of just being bigger than me or whether they take the form of being a grocery store matters little. I'm less independent and less free and much, much more vulnerable. Essentially, I become the squirrel.

I posted the following as a response to a FB "friend's" incoherent gun rant. I pointed out the fact that AR's & AK's were a subset of rifles. Almost, but didn't, mention that he was more than twice as likely to be beaten to death than die at the hands of an evil rifle. Let the shrieking begin.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cri....

Libs HATE facts. LOL.

The NRA used to stand by private gun ownership rights. Now they are advocating statist gun ownership. It has become quite transparent now...they have sold out.