Honest Voices Begin To Appear (CT)
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2012-12-17 09:30
by Karl Denninger
in 2ndAmendment
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Honest Voices Begin To Appear (CT)
 

Day #3 dawns and the fear-mongers are still out demanding gun bans.  Howard Dean was on CNBS this morning screaming about it once again, while others were talking about "technology solutions" (such as fingerprint interlocks on firearms.)

All are missing the point.

The point is mental illness.

The second, and related, point is this: what has changed in the last 30 years -- and most-notably, in the last ten?

Mental illness is nothing new.  Neither is homicide.  Let's deal first with homicide.

About 17,000 people were murdered in 2009, according to the CDC.  That's 46 people, more or less, every single day, or more than one Newtown daily.

The ugly underbelly of this reality is that our drug war kills the majority of the homicide victims every year, when you get analytical about it.  We deny people who transact in certain things access to the courts to settle their disputes and so they turn to violence, because the dispute doesn't go away -- only the lawful means to settle it.  And we as a people don't give a damn about it in the general sense because (1) those "evil drug people" in some way "deserved it" and (2) they're black.

Go ahead and argue otherwise if you'd like, but that's what the statistics tell us -- more people die every day as a direct and indirect consequence of the drug war than were killed last week in Newtown, and most of the victims and perpetrators are young black men.

It gets worse.  Our government not only indirectly is responsible for this due to its prosecution of that drug war in some cases it's directly responsible for arming the drug lords.  The dystopia and ridiculous nature of a government proclaiming that "we must do something about guns" while it in fact illegally armed Mexican drug lords should make your head explode.

We don't do that because this isn't really about either homicide or guns.  It only becomes about them when our "leaders" are able to seize upon the right people who get killed -- the "right" people being the most cute and cuddly among Americans.  Young black men need not apply.

Mayor Bloomberg screamed once again over the weekend about the nearly 50,000 people who will (on present trajectories) be murdered over the next four years, but he, like Obama, is dancing in the blood of children. 

The Government could stop more than half of the murders were it to demand that we cut the crap with the drug war and thus give a damn about young black men who are both the overwhelming perpetrators and victims of these crimes.

The fact is that Mayor Bloomberg, President Obama, David Tepper (who is as I write this on CNBC) and others screaming about this issue don't give a good damn about the real causes of homicide in this nation and never have. 

All they're really interested in is scoring political points -- nothing more or less.

It is especially outrageous to hear Obama, who is black, pontificate on this point.

When it comes to mass-shootings, however, the issue is different. 

There the issue -- and the answer -- lies in mental illness. 

What we need to talk about is this:

What has changed over the last 30 years?

Do realize that being crazy isn't new.  And today, with the NICS / "Brady Law" and similar, guns are far more restricted than they were 30 years or more ago.  It was not that long ago that you could buy a gun out of the Sears Catalog and have it mailed to your home!  The Gun Control Act of 1968 ended that, but there were lots of crazy people in 1968.

What has changed?

A few things, and if we want to have a real impact on the odds of another Newtown happening we need to address them.  We need to cut the crap and talk about what has actually changed, what we, the people, have done to contribute to potentiating violence among the crazy, and what we're going to do to change those things.

We must first accept there is no restriction on the devices that can kill if someone is willing to commit murder without remorse.  The potential selection of devices include cars, SUVs, airplanes, gasoline, common household chemicals including bleach and drain cleaner, matches, knives and... of course... guns.  In the instant case the assailant murdered his mother to acquire the guns after, it is reported, he tried to buy one legally and was told he'd have to wait 2 weeks. 

But he wanted to murder now, not in 2 weeks, so he began his count of murders with his mom.

We can up-armor our schools to try to defend against this, but do you want your kids to go to prison every morning, or to school?  Whether you send your kids to school in a public or private educational institution, or if you homeschool, do you want them -- and if you homeschool you -- to be in a place that looks like the inside of a jail?  Is that acceptable to you?  What are you teaching your kids -- that every gathering of people, whether it be for a football game or simply to play out on the playground, must be behind a razor-wire-topped solid barricade lest some nutjob murder everyone there? 

Is that an acceptable lesson to teach your children?  I went utterly ballistic when the first lesson my daughter was taught was socialism on her first day of Kindergarten -- she was told to turn over the copious set of supplies she had brought to school to a big pile so "everyone who needed a pencil could have one.

From each according to his ability, to each according their need -- KARL MARX

For five year olds?  Bull**** said I.

If you want to live in that world -- or one where your kids are brought up to consider an education congruent with being in the gulag -- then you're free to do so.

I refuse and if you consent I assert that you are crazy.

I support people carrying concealed -- including teachers and staff who are willing to and want to -- because unlike many I accept that no matter what we do we cannot have perfect defenses and that the last line of defense when someone has decided to commit murder is the ability to stop the assault.  It's not a perfect line of defense but at that instant in time it's either that or nothing, and I believe that a fighting chance at life is preferable to certain death.

But let's leave "last resorts" aside and again return to the salient question:

What has changed?

Are there more homicidal maniacs than there were 30 years ago? 

Maybe.

If there are, did we create them? 

Are we Frankenstein's father?

That's uncomfortable to contemplate, isn't it?

Well, we better contemplate it, because the answer is probably "yes" -- twice.

Are we creating some of the mania with our media affliction -- all the violence we see every day, fantasy or otherwise?  Maybe.  But you're reading missives from a guy who grew up watching someone blow up, shoot, or otherwise destroy someone else, on average, every 30 seconds on TeeVee when I was a kid.  Bugs Bunny and The Roadrunner anyone?  Then we went outside and played Cowboys and Indians, and most of the time the Indians were the ones getting shot.  When we got a bit older we graduated to shooting at each other with bottle rockets fired out of mailing tubes, using trash can lids as shields.  I had a Daisy lever-action BB gun that my grandfather gave me that he retrieved from the rafters in his basement, then a Crossman 760 BB/pellet rifle.  My basement was riddled with punched paper.

But none of us ever seriously contemplated grabbing a real gun and murdering someone (or a lot of someones), never mind that I knew where an old (and presumably working) revolver was (in my Aunt Marg's dresser "secret compartment.")  If I ever really wanted to do it, I had access to what was necessary to do it. 

From about the age of 10 onward -- and I never told an adult that I knew where that gun was.

But I wasn't stuffed full of drugs. 

Today, far too many of our kids are, and the correlation is clear.

Correlation doesn't show causation but it damn well ought to make you sit up and take notice.  Especially when the notice comes in the form of a label on the bottle itself. 

And in this case it does.

Simply put I assert that we need to stop drugging kids, except in extreme cases, and in those extreme cases we need to do it under strict supervision.

What is strict supervision?  It's not what we're doing now.  And if you think this is some sort of rant, well, how about if you argue with the label instead of with me?

Is that clear enough?  How different, incidentally, is suicide from homicide? 

The only difference is the target of the act, not the act itself.

Who, by and large, has committed these acts of mass-violence? 

Think about it. 

We do not (yet) know if the alleged perpetrator of this specific assault was on one or more drugs in this category, but we do know that historically this has been the case for those who have gone nuts and committed these sorts of offenses.

If I start giving away cans of gasoline to people who are known to be firebugs, should I be surprised when some of them are unable to resist the temptation to use them to commit arson instead of mowing their lawn?

Mental illness is serious.  But it's also not new.

What is new is drugging everyone who comes into a doctor's office with anything that they can prescribe a pill for, especially when it comes to young people.  We substitute doping kids for parenting, we pretend that we can "integrate" or "mainstream" kids who shouldn't be in classrooms with everyone else (for their good as well as to prevent them from disrupting the education of everyone else who is there to learn) and at the first sign of trouble we reach for the pill bottle and then expect a teen or young adult to self-report symptoms that by their nature will mark the person as nuts, and they know it.

I can't prove that these drugs and their prevalence in children, adolescents and young adults are the causative factor in these events.  But I have far more correlative evidence that they are in fact implicated than anyone who wants to ban guns ever will that firearms are "the cause", or that banning any particular subset of them will result in any meaningful change.

So how about this for a start:

  • Immediate revocation of prescriptions for all psychotropic substances, including but not limited to SSRIs, outside of psychiatric practice for anyone under the age of 25.  If there is a legitimate need for these drugs in youth, adolescents and young adults then confine their use to supervision under the care of a licensed psychiatrist.

  • Where such drugs are prescribed under psychiatric care insist on continual professional monitoring on a schedule of no less than once every two weeks.  Simply put we know these drugs can potentiate dangerous shifts in mental state.  There is only one way to monitor for that, and that's externally.  Reliance on someone who is mentally compromised (which is why you prescribed the drug in the first place!) to initiate contact in the event of trouble is ridiculous.

  • Change the law.  If you're under psychiatric care involving medication that has a black-box warning then during that time you should be inhibited from purchasing or owning firearms.  This won't stop someone from acquiring them via illegal means (e.g. murdering his mother) but it will stop him from buying them in a gun store.  At the same time this is a shift in our current policy -- currently such a disability is permanent and as such we do not impose disability where we arguably should.  That's antiquated and ridiculous, especially when the disability is drug-induced and the drug in question requires a prescription. While this particular change would not have prevented the latest shooting it might have prevented some of the others.

There's an editorial in the WSJ that echoes much of this today that is, in my view, worth reading (subscription required.)  Perhaps -- just perhaps -- rational voices are appearing to counter the ghoulish grave-dancing that Obama, Bloomberg and a few others have been committing over the last few days.

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Tesla
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Heh - see my post on the prior CT Ticker. Peter Breggin has made this same case for years and years. Handing a "happy pill" to any person is a prescription for a bigger problem than the one you think you have.

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Kochevnik
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What do ALL these things have in common - the utterly WEAK and INEFFECTUAL capabilities of the institutions we have created to have power over our lives since WW2.

They are all collapsing bit by bit by bit.

Look at the CT shooting - there is NO response that the top institutional leader can make that will not make either the situation worse, OR to enrage a large portion of the population. It's like that War Games movie scene - EVERY move is the wrong one.

Go read the NEIL HOWE thread in FedUp for the big picture view of what we are into.

http://tickerforum.org/akcs-www?post=214....

This is all classic Fourth Turning stuff.


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Obseedian
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WSJ article seems to be available without subscription.

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Grumpygirl
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As someone who has worked in community mental health administration for almost 13 years, thank you for this insightful and sensible essay, Karl.

"Strict Supervision" requires the involvement of mental health professionals other than the prescribing doctors, and that's why I've always believed that one's family doctor is ill-equipped to be taking the responsibility for prescribing these meds. Where I work, the clinics that treat the folks with the severe & persistent mental health disorders (schizophrenia, severe bipolar disorder, etc.) now have primary care doctors working and seeing our clients for their basic health needs - on site. This has been an amazing and positive change. If the PCP wants to consult with the psychiatrist about the meds the patient is taking, all he has to do is walk down the hallway and poke his head into the other guy's office. When someone is on a complex mix of medications, there are regular staffing meetings about this client that involve the prescribers and the other mental health professionals that work with the client. We're seeing fewer medication complications, fewer clients going off their meds and "off the rails", and less need for hospitalization. Even the clients have said they like it better. I certainly don't think this setup is necessary for every single person taking psych meds, but I've come to the conclusion that this is the best way for folks with severe illness.

Not cheap under the current healthcare system, though.
Azengrcat
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How about the liability of the patients action going back to the prescriber? That would probably slow down the speed at which these drugs are distributed. The doctor would have to use some critical thinking to make sure the patient has the proper support system in place patient does not land him with huge lawsuits and/or in jail.
Al44
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My wife sent this to me in an email. Don't know if it is true or not, but does point to the real problem.

Written by Liza Long, republished from The Blue Review

Friday’s horrific national tragedy -- the murder of 20 children and six adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut -- has ignited a new discussion on violence in America. In kitchens and coffee shops across the country, we tearfully debate the many faces of violence in America: gun culture, media violence, lack of mental health services, overt and covert wars abroad, religion, politics and the way we raise our children. Liza Long, a writer based in Boise, says it’s easy to talk about guns. But it’s time to talk about mental illness.

While every family's story of mental illness is different, and we may never know the whole of the Lanza's story, tales like this one need to be heard -- and families who live them deserve our help.

Three days before 20 year-old Adam Lanza killed his mother, then opened fire on a classroom full of Connecticut kindergartners, my 13-year old son Michael (name changed) missed his bus because he was wearing the wrong color pants.

“I can wear these pants,” he said, his tone increasingly belligerent, the black-hole pupils of his eyes swallowing the blue irises.

“They are navy blue,” I told him. “Your school’s dress code says black or khaki pants only.”

“They told me I could wear these,” he insisted. “You’re a stupid bitch. I can wear whatever pants I want to. This is America. I have rights!”

“You can’t wear whatever pants you want to,” I said, my tone affable, reasonable. “And you definitely cannot call me a stupid bitch. You’re grounded from electronics for the rest of the day. Now get in the car, and I will take you to school.”

I live with a son who is mentally ill. I love my son. But he terrifies me.

A few weeks ago, Michael pulled a knife and threatened to kill me and then himself after I asked him to return his overdue library books. His 7 and 9 year old siblings knew the safety plan -- they ran to the car and locked the doors before I even asked them to. I managed to get the knife from Michael, then methodically collected all the sharp objects in the house into a single Tupperware container that now travels with me. Through it all, he continued to scream insults at me and threaten to kill or hurt me.

That conflict ended with three burly police officers and a paramedic wrestling my son onto a gurney for an expensive ambulance ride to the local emergency room. The mental hospital didn’t have any beds that day, and Michael calmed down nicely in the ER, so they sent us home with a prescription for Zyprexa and a follow-up visit with a local pediatric psychiatrist.

We still don’t know what’s wrong with Michael. Autism spectrum, ADHD, Oppositional Defiant or Intermittent Explosive Disorder have all been tossed around at various meetings with probation officers and social workers and counselors and teachers and school administrators. He’s been on a slew of antipsychotic and mood altering pharmaceuticals, a Russian novel of behavioral plans. Nothing seems to work.

At the start of seventh grade, Michael was accepted to an accelerated program for highly gifted math and science students. His IQ is off the charts. When he’s in a good mood, he will gladly bend your ear on subjects ranging from Greek mythology to the differences between Einsteinian and Newtonian physics to Doctor Who. He’s in a good mood most of the time. But when he’s not, watch out. And it’s impossible to predict what will set him off.

Several weeks into his new junior high school, Michael began exhibiting increasingly odd and threatening behaviors at school. We decided to transfer him to the district’s most restrictive behavioral program, a contained school environment where children who can’t function in normal classrooms can access their right to free public babysitting from 7:30-1:50 Monday through Friday until they turn 18.

The morning of the pants incident, Michael continued to argue with me on the drive. He would occasionally apologize and seem remorseful. Right before we turned into his school parking lot, he said, “Look, Mom, I’m really sorry. Can I have video games back today?”

“No way,” I told him. “You cannot act the way you acted this morning and think you can get your electronic privileges back that quickly.”

His face turned cold, and his eyes were full of calculated rage. “Then I’m going to kill myself,” he said. “I’m going to jump out of this car right now and kill myself.”

That was it. After the knife incident, I told him that if he ever said those words again, I would take him straight to the mental hospital, no ifs, ands, or buts. I did not respond, except to pull the car into the opposite lane, turning left instead of right.
“Where are you taking me?” he said, suddenly worried. “Where are we going?”

“You know where we are going,” I replied.

“No! You can’t do that to me! You’re sending me to hell! You’re sending me straight to hell!”

I pulled up in front of the hospital, frantically waiving for one of the clinicians who happened to be standing outside. “Call the police,” I said. “Hurry.”

Michael was in a full-blown fit by then, screaming and hitting. I hugged him close so he couldn’t escape from the car. He bit me several times and repeatedly jabbed his elbows into my rib cage. I’m still stronger than he is, but I won’t be for much longer.
The police came quickly and carried my son screaming and kicking into the bowels of the hospital. I started to shake, and tears filled my eyes as I filled out the paperwork -- “Were there any difficulties with… at what age did your child… were there any problems with.. has your child ever experienced.. does your child have…”

At least we have health insurance now. I recently accepted a position with a local college, giving up my freelance career because when you have a kid like this, you need benefits. You’ll do anything for benefits. No individual insurance plan will cover this kind of thing.

For days, my son insisted that I was lying -- that I made the whole thing up so that I could get rid of him. The first day, when I called to check up on him, he said, “I hate you. And I’m going to get my revenge as soon as I get out of here.”

By day three, he was my calm, sweet boy again, all apologies and promises to get better. I’ve heard those promises for years. I don’t believe them anymore.

On the intake form, under the question, “What are your expectations for treatment?” I wrote, “I need help.”

And I do. This problem is too big for me to handle on my own. Sometimes there are no good options. So you just pray for grace and trust that in hindsight, it will all make sense.

I am sharing this story because I am Adam Lanza’s mother. I am Dylan Klebold’s and Eric Harris’s mother. I am James Holmes’s mother. I am Jared Loughner’s mother. I am Seung-Hui Cho’s mother. And these boys—and their mothers—need help. In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it’s easy to talk about guns. But it’s time to talk about mental illness.

According to Mother Jones, since 1982, 61 mass murders involving firearms have occurred throughout the country. Of these, 43 of the killers were white males, and only one was a woman. Mother Jones focused on whether the killers obtained their guns legally (most did). But this highly visible sign of mental illness should lead us to consider how many people in the U.S. live in fear, like I do.

When I asked my son’s social worker about my options, he said that the only thing I could do was to get Michael charged with a crime. “If he’s back in the system, they’ll create a paper trail,” he said. “That’s the only way you’re ever going to get anything done. No one will pay attention to you unless you’ve got charges.”

I don’t believe my son belongs in jail. The chaotic environment exacerbates Michael’s sensitivity to sensory stimuli and doesn’t deal with the underlying pathology. But it seems like the United States is using prison as the solution of choice for mentally ill people. According to Human Rights Watch, the number of mentally ill inmates in U.S. prisons quadrupled from 2000 to 2006, and it continues to rise -- in fact, the rate of inmate mental illness is five times greater (56 percent) than in the non-incarcerated population.

With state-run treatment centers and hospitals shuttered, prison is now the last resort for the mentally ill -- Rikers Island, the LA County Jail and Cook County Jail in Illinois housed the nation’s largest treatment centers in 2011.

No one wants to send a 13-year old genius who loves Harry Potter and his snuggle animal collection to jail. But our society, with its stigma on mental illness and its broken healthcare system, does not provide us with other options. Then another tortured soul shoots up a fast food restaurant. A mall. A kindergarten classroom. And we wring our hands and say, “Something must be done.”

I agree that something must be done. It’s time for a meaningful, nation-wide conversation about mental health. That’s the only way our nation can ever truly heal.

God help me. God help Michael. God help us all.
Ricka01
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"Honest Voices Begin to Appear" Unfortunately, not on CNN this morning - they were advocating heavily for banning "assault weapons," and against arming responsible adults in schools.
Genesis
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Al: Read previous entries in that blog. Your eyes will pop wide open.

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Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
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Tchoup
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Its the SAD. (Standard American Diet).

We keep subsidizing corn/soy/hfcs crap, americans keep eating it, americans will keep getting sick, both corporeally and mentally. Feed your body crap, your brain will literally rot. Pretty simple.

This book is pretty good:

http://www.ultramind.com/preview.php

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Bagbalm
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There was a school shooting in California about 1989 - where somebody shot up a bunch of Asian kids. It was obviously a hate crime.
This precipitated a no guns in schools law that only lasted a few years before being struck down by the courts.
The law was then rewritten to get past the courts and about 1994-1996 (going from memory here) schools as gun free zones became the effective national law because if you didn't do that the Feds cut off your tax dollars coming back to your school system.
All the current series of massacres have been since this.
So they two go hand in hand - drugged people and wide open targets.
Noodleman
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You're just killin' me with your common sense on this topic, Karl. Not one Congress clown can come up with the common causes and solutions (at least minimizations) to these massacres and you pump them out like a laundry list.

Have you ever watch the violence in American cartoons? Atrocious. Thinking back on the violence I watched on Saturday morning cartoons it's a wonder I turned out halfway normal. I used to love the 3 Stooges (still do) but watch how Moe used to hammer Curly and Larry for screwing up. He took a hammer and used the nail puller to grab Curly by the nostrils and drag him across the room! heh. Or literally smack him on top of the head with the hammer butt! heh.

I didn't realize how sick all this crap was until one morning I was watching cartoons on an East German television station from West Germany in the 70's. It showed little chirping birdies and little squirrels singing songs to one another. No violence in their cartoons. None. And that's back when communism ruled!

So maybe it's time for Obama to stop feigning tears and throwing chunks of red meat into the shark pool w/regard to gun control and instead call for a ban of violence in American cartoons. But that would never happen because the entertainment lobby would go ape**** and the lobbyist money would ******** dry up!!!!

This is an obvious push to disarm the American peasants. Like declawing a cat then throwing him into the alley at night to fend off the alleycats.

A very frightening period in the lives of we Americans!

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"Ammunition beats persuasion when you are looking for freedom." Will Rogers, 4 Nov 1879 - 15 Aug 1935

Downrange
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Thanks for your leadership here in TF through this event and its aftermath, Karl.

You are spot-on.

We need to BOYCOTT Rupert Murdoch, btw... That statist ******* is using HIS bully pulpit to promulgate the message of fear-based concession of all remaining rights to a glorified super-state. I am finding the need to ACTIVELY confront that message where I encounter it. I think the only way we get through this without civil war is to wage that war now in people's hearts and minds. If they don't get it, or even if just enough persist in "supporting" people like Murdoch, we are going to be really in the ****. We may be anyway. Thanks for trying.

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"If this is how the state treats its law-abiding citizens, it doesn't deserve to have any" A. Solzhenitzen
Analog
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Quote:
Have you ever watch the violence in American cartoons? Atrocious. Thinking back on the violence I watched on Saturday morning cartoons it's a wonder I turned out halfway normal


yep, every super-hero from Mighty Mouse to Xena invokes superhuman power to vanquish his tormentors.
The message is that at some threshold it's okay to explode with ultra-violence.
Why do some really act it out? I dont know.

Personally i think the seeds of rage are planted very early
and modern entertainment nourishes those that germinate.

Blake's "My Poison Tree" hints at the toxicity of repressed rage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Poison_Tr....



old jim
Docj
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I second Noodleman, Karl. You are absolutely spot-on with these posts.

One perhaps slight omission however, is the impact that the Community Mental Health Act (CMHA) of 1963 had on emptying the "loony-bins" of people who, honestly, have no business being out in society (as they are a danger to others and themselves).

Once someone has decided that killing their mother, then taking-out a couple of classrooms of 6 YEAR OLDS and then eating a bullet themselves is a reasonable way to conduct their affairs there ain't a tinker's damn that some "law" or other is going to stop them. The key is to get to those people long, long before they can actually hurt someone.

But we're not allowed to do that now, until after they've already hurt someone.

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The preservation of liberty depends upon the intellectual and moral character of the people. As long as knowledge and virtue are diffused generally among the body of a nation it is impossible they should be enslaved. - John Adams
Ckaminski
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Quote:
I went utterly ballistic when the first lesson my daughter was taught was socialism on her first day of Kindergarten -- she was told to turn over the copious set of supplies she had brought to school to a big pile so "everyone who needed a pencil could have one."


It was over 30 years ago (1981), but I remember my first day of kindergarten, when my teacher (who I otherwise adored) - took half my cookies to give to a kid who's mom didn't pack them a lunch.

I learned the unfairness of socialism early, and I'm afraid it's made me a very uncompromising person in the face of it.
Winstonsmith2009
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I think there's more to it than medication effects, specifically the clusters.

Go here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ram....

and sort by year. Then look at 2004, seven incidents involving 114 kids, all in China. It would interesting to tie that cluster into some cause, but finding info about China in 2004 on-line in English might be tough.
Genesis
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Docj, the thing is that we keep seeing the statistics on this -- it's young adults and adolescents that commit these crimes.

I'd be with you on the nuthouses being responsible if we saw 40 year old crazies shooting up schools and shopping malls, but we don't.

Think about it.

It's a particular subset -- the particular subset that is associated with those black-label warnings. And those people are largely -- if not exclusively -- on those drugs.

The correlation is STRIKING and impossible to ignore.

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Winstonsmith2009
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"it's young adults and adolescents that commit these crimes"

And right around the age when the worst symptoms from a physiological disorder would begin to peak.

In China, though, it's all adults. There's another China-only cluster in that list above in 2010.

And in that list you can see that other industrialized nations are hardly represented at all. The vast majority of incidents involve adults in China and younger persons (not all minors by any means) in the US.

Age of US school rampage shooting perps since 1984:

11 *
13 *
15 **
16 *
17 *
18 *
20 *
23 *
27 *
32 *
43 *
55 *

Reason: Added age data
Docj
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Karl, I agree. And I'm very sensitive to this as the parent of an autistic teen myself. Doctors have been pushing meds on us (and him) since Day One - the only one we agreed to, and only then with great hesitation, was a "relatively" mild medication to control his sub-clinical seizures. As soon as his seizing went away we insisted he go off the meds - and we fought tooth and nail with his doctors about it for, literally, the better part of a year. Thankfully he's been off for 4-years without a hiccup.

So I'm totally with you on the drugs angle. But I also believe there needs to be some facility, somewhere, to provide help, support and care for parents of kids who are, honestly, far beyond my son's level of disability. Unfortunately, that's only going to get worse under Obamacare, not better.

Cheers -

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The preservation of liberty depends upon the intellectual and moral character of the people. As long as knowledge and virtue are diffused generally among the body of a nation it is impossible they should be enslaved. - John Adams
Jata1
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A1- that story brought tears to my eyes. I had a son who was troubled and I know the difficulties of the system. My son did not make it, he died at 18. The helpless feeling is overwhelming and I too was told the best way to solve the issue was have him arrested while commiting a crime. The very thing I was trying to prevent. It's over 20 years ago now for me and not a day goes by that I do not feel the guilt over a life lost way too young. And sadly 20 years later there is still nowhere for people to turn for help.
4geez
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"You’re grounded from electronics for the rest of the day."

And this woman wonders why she has a PROBLEM? As a parent of six children, one of them a teenage boy, none of them have EVER called me a stupid bitch. And if they did, I promise the world they will get more than an electronic grounding for a day.

And after that, their dad would have round two with them.

So adding to the psycho meds, you have --and I can feel the flames coming -- BAD PARENTING.
Pika-steph
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Agree entirely. Unfortunately, our government is more interesting in restricting the use and availability of Sudafed. smiley


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Blurtman
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Mental illness is not an objective diagnosis. All too frequently, behaviours, such as homosexulatiy, that society dissaproves of become defined as "mental illnes."

Look at how many kids have been diagnosed as mentally ill requiring medication in the last decade.

There are only a few possibilities to explain this:

1.) The incidence of mental illness is indeed increasing

2.) The definition of mental illness has expanded to included previously defined normal behaviours.

We would hope that Lanza and anyone that would perform such despicable acts was mentally ill, so that we would have an explanation of how anybody could do this. But what if they aren't?

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Genesis
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It doesn't matter if he was mentally ill.

What matters, in the context of trying to prevent it from happening again, is if he fits the pattern of being young, relatively unsupervised medically, and on these drugs.

Lots of people are nuts but not dangerous. In fact, most people who are nuts are not dangerous. It is only a very small subset of crazy people who are dangerous to others.

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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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