Solutions For CT: There Are Some
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2012-12-16 14:02
by Karl Denninger
in 2ndAmendment
Ignore this thread
Solutions For CT: There Are Some
 

But they're not what people are promoting, especially those who are always looking for a way to shove you in the hole -- right after they remove your ability to resist.

And let's not kid ourselves -- that's exactly what happened in Connecticut.  The teachers and staff in that school had no lawful means to resist, because they accepted (and probably even supported) the fallacious argument that laws (paper) stop bullets.  They learned, too late, that this argument is and always has been false.

A murderous thug, enabled by foolish reliance on pieces of paper, shoved them in the hole.

If you believe that "gun control" (of any sort) will stop these events you're suffering from a severe case of logical fallacy -- or delusion.  The worst mass-murder in a school wasn't committed by Adam Lanza.  That distinction belongs to former school board treasurer Andrew Kehoe, who got*****ed off about a property tax levy and detonated three bombs in Bath Township, Michigan, killing 38 elementary school children, two teachers, a handful of other adults and himself.  Nearly 60 were injured.

That murderer also killed his wife and set his farm buildings on fire just before he set off the bombs. 

Believe it or not, Bath Township got off light.  There were over 500lbs of additional explosives planted in the buildings that failed to go off; he intended to destroy the entire school and presumably kill everyone inside, but the second device failed to explode.

Nor do you need a gun to commit mass-murder in general.  One of the worst mass-murder events in US history was committed in 1990 with a gallon of gasoline; Julio Gonzalez, who was later convicted of arson and murder, spread gasoline on the entrance to the club and set it ablaze.  87 people died.  Not only did the gasoline cost far less than a gun, it is much easier to obtain.  Do you recall any hue and cry for the banning of gasoline, or even for gasoline-powered weed-eaters and lawn-mowers (or, for that matter, portable generators) -- the predicate items that for sane people compel them to buy and use a portable gas can, and thus make portable gas cans available to homicidal maniacs?

Next, let's talk about the school once again, because here we see an over-reliance on half-measures and "feel good" ideation as well.  The school locked the doors and required a buzzer to enter, which sounds reasonable.  The problem is that they didn't armor the glass in the immediate vicinity of the door, making possible a trivial forced entry.  A person intent on homicide doesn't care if he breaks a window (a petty crime) first.  You can't reasonably replace all windows with shatter-proof panes (e.g. wired-mesh glass that can be shot through but will not break in a fashion that allows entry) but you can do so for that glass in an entry door or in its immediate vicinity, and you can for small windows in and immediately in the vicinity of classroom doors.  You can also equip classroom doors with cylinder deadbolt locks that require a key from the outside to open, but can be operated without a key from the inside.  These enhancements, which are pretty inexpensive, would have thwarted the shooter's forced entry into the school and if he gained entry to the building would have prevented his entry into the classrooms.  There are reports that teachers had to use file cabinets and their bodies to barricade the doors; one was shot and injured doing so.  That's outrageous when a quality deadbolt-equipped door and metal frame bolted to the structure of the building costs only a few hundred dollars. 

I want to know who was behind the changes made to "secure" this school and what sort of analytical process was undertaken, whether it was debated in the open at a school board meeting, whether the public was involved, and whether the public was invited to think about and comment on the path undertaken and its expense.  Again, while hindsight is always 20/20 if the fact that a plate window was in the immediate vicinity of a "locked" door was not looked at as a security problem then I question both the people and the process involved in "hardening" this installation.

Next, let's talk about the adults in the school.  We already require training on sexual assault, child abuse and similar issues for school teachers and administrators.  Why do we omit self-defense from this list, when our teachers and administrators claim the right of in loco parentis during school hours for our children? 

That omission is asinine.

No, not all teachers will want or be comfortable with the responsibility for defense of the children in their care during class hours.  So what?  Not all parents are comfortable with that responsibility either!  Witness the myriad parents who right here and now are screaming for symbolic acts that the above two events document will not insure their child's safety.

But there are also teachers who are comfortable with these duties and responsibility.  Indeed, at least one teacher at this school died while covering her students with her body, the only means of defense she had available to her.  There are also parents who believe in the same, and who take such a responsibility seriously.  To those who don't or are on the fence, let me ask you a simple question:

Let us assume you are in the school when Adam Lanza enters and begins to shoot children.  You see him murder a child in cold blood.  He has his back turned to you and beyond him is a solid concrete-block wall -- no innocent children or adults.  On the table next to you, within arms reach, appears a loaded gun.  You have 2 seconds to decide before Adam kills another child: Will you shoot Adam Lanza and stop his assault or not?

I assume that every sane adult who has any sort of respect for and love of human life, whether a parent or not, would shoot Adam Lanza under these circumstances as many times as were necessary to terminate his assault. 

I know I would do so.

So why, given that the school took what it thought were reasonable precautions but which turned out to be inadequate in the harsh 20/20 hindsight of the next morning, would anyone of similarly sane mind not demand that every employee of said school district, who already must pass a background check in order to be employed at the school since they are in close contact with children, should have the ability to acquire the training and then ability to carry the only device known to man capable of stopping a murderer like Adam Lanza? 

That is, why do you insist that the only device known effective to terminate such an assault be available only to murderous thugs inside and around a school, and not to those who respect and revere both life itself but also the children inside?

There is no logical argument one can raise against this.  Front Sight, a well-known firearms training company, is offering free training for up to three staff members from each school, college or university in the wake of this tragedy.  They're right, and the detractors are wrong, purely and simply on the facts.

I understand full well that there are many "pretty snowflakes" who will recoil in horror at this suggestion.  It is time for all of those "snowflakes" to wake the hell up for there is in fact evil in this world, and plenty of it.  A murderous thug does not care about the law, he does not care if it's illegal to acquire one or more guns, and in the particular case at issue the assailant murdered his mother in order to get the guns he used after he was told he would have to wait 2 weeks to buy one at a store.

If you do not understand that the only deterrent that such a murderous bastard understands is the threat of deadly force used lawfully to defend the intended victims then you're not very bright.  And if you do understand this and argue for removing the only tools that are effective from such defenders anyway then you're a sick and corrupt bastard that has no just role in public policy -- or anywhere else in the public square opining on this matter.

You are free to cower in the corner and die sniveling if you wish but I not only refuse I will support others defending your children even if you, who should, will not.

You can claim this change in the law and policy would be ineffective if you wish but in point of fact Israel, in the 1970s, faced a rash of terrorist attacks on their schools.  Israel also heard people screaming for more gun control, as we do today.  Their government analyzed the problem and decided to do the opposite and as I am advocating here -- they trained and armed their teachers instead. 

What happened?

School shootings ceased as schools were no longer "soft" targets full of people who could not shoot back.

Come to this debate armed with facts.

Never mind what I pointed out yesterday -- in Oregon the recent mall shooter had his "gun free mall zone" concept disrupted by a CCW holder -- and rather than continue his murderous rampage he elected to kill himself.

Therefore all school teachers, administrators and staff should be offered such training and CCW permits should they so choose, and this change in law and policy, including the formal revocation of "Gun Free School Zones" should be widely publicized so that criminal thugs become aware that the day of the "free fire" zone at schools across our land has ended.

Finally, on the subject of guns and violent crime you should look at the study out of Harvard (a notoriously liberal school which you would expect to support strong gun control) which recently was published, that found, among other things:

The results discussed earlier contradict those expectations. On the one hand, despite constant and substantially increasing gun ownership, the United States saw progressive and dramatic reductions in criminal violence in the 1990s. On the other hand, the same time period in the United Kingdom saw a constant and dramatic increase in violent crime to which England’s response was ever-more drastic gun control including, eventually, banning and confiscating all handguns and many types of long guns.22 Nevertheless, criminal violence rampantly increased so that by 2000 England surpassed the United States to become one of the developed world’s most violence-ridden nations.

....

A fact that should be of greater concern—but which the study fails to mention—is that per capita murder overall is only half as frequent in the United States as in several other nations where gun murder is rarer, but murder by strangling, stabbing, or beating is much more frequent. 47

Oh darn, those pesky facts intrude once again.

There is another side of this event, however, that we must address at the same time -- mental illness.  Put simply, we deal with it in this nation very poorly and in far too many cases we do so by reaching for the pill bottle without due regard for what should come with that act.

There are plenty of kids who are*****ed off for damn good reason, just as there are many adults who are*****ed off for damn good cause.  Anger is a useful emotion and not to be trifled with, simply dismissed, or worse, drugged away.  Appropriately focused and used, it can drive one to change their surroundings and remove severe negative influences from one's life.  In short it can lift one from failure to success.  Inappropriately used, however, it can be extremely destructive.

But then there are those who are psychopaths -- or sociopaths, if you prefer.  Many of these people are attracted to positions of power and are very good at acquiring it through beguilement of various forms; once in those positions of power they then abuse that power as they have no emotional connection to the world around them or the intentional damage they inflict on the people beneath them.

If you believe this is a crazy assertion you might want to look at the fact that this has actually been studied, and over-representation at higher levels of power is quite stunning. 

This likely speaks to much of our lack of policy response; after all, were you in charge of the levers of power in government would you advocate for a set of policy prescriptions, assuming you are highly intelligent, that has a decent probability of leading to the loss of your own power?

Of course not.

Now look at the people who are supposedly "well-respected" but arguing for strict gun control or outright bans, despite the fact that many of them enjoy either their own arms for protection or have armed guards at their disposal, including Mayor Bloomberg, Nancy Pelosi, Barack Obama and many others.  How many of those people display psychopathic traits such as not caring about the impact of their policies on the common man -- doubling of gasoline prices, rampant increases in the cost of medical care, bread, milk, cheese, meats.  Unemployment.  Outrageous levels of offshoring of production and monopoly-style protections for those industries that ladle the cost of their operations on Americans. 

Oh, you say, this is an invalid comparison?  The hell it is.  The fact is that psychopathic behavior lies along a vector; that is, it is not a simple "yes" or "no" but rather extends at one extreme from someone willing to murder his own mother to acquire weapons and at the other end includes people willing to **** over the public to make a buck in one form or another, such as by knowingly selling them worthless mortgage bonds, or to do so for the purpose of accumulation of personal power and protection, such as Mayor Bloomberg who pontificates on gun control while employing armed guards himself.

As a nation we must confront all of this psychotic and psychopathic behavior and those who engage in it, including especially those in our organs of power who use beguilement to seduce us with promises that they know damn well cannot be kept.  These people shove in the hole many times the number of bodies that a mass-murderer manages to dispatch before he meets his demise, as each of those deaths takes place much more slowly and in a more-diffuse way.  In addition the lives destroyed and despair inflicted by such policies are not counted at all.

Finally, a not-insignificant part of the responsibility for these assaults rest in our pharmaceutical industry.  Many of the drugs commonly prescribed for various psychiatric and psychological "disorders" are known and in fact labeled as having the potential to cause homicidal and suicidal ideation.  The two are close cousins. 

How is it that such a substance can be administered in a setting where only self-reporting by the person suffering the ideation is available as a flagging mechanism?

C'mon folks -- you're brighter than that.

This is not to say that such drugs don't have their place.  They most-certainly do.  But shouldn't we be talking about whether such a prescription should come only under close clinical scrutiny by licensed psychiatrists, not primary-care physicians without specialized training?  And should we not insist on legal liability for those writing such scripts to perform clinically-validated supervision on the efficacy and side effects of such drugs?

And let's not kid ourselves -- Paxil, Zoloft, Prozac, Cymbalta and many more carry a "black label" suicide warning.  The correlation between mass-murdering bastards and their use of these drugs is striking -- and deeply troubling.

Yes, this means that there would be much more court-ordered supervision.  People would be declared incompetent, temporarily or otherwise.  And liability would come -- as it should -- for those pill-pushers who fail to monitor their patients in a proactive, competent and continual manner when and after prescribing these substances if and when those whom they take under their care undertake violent acts that are not only reasonably foreseeable they are warned about directly on the label of the bottle!

Given the clear record of correlation between the recent mass-murderers and these drugs I think we're long beyond the point where such a requirement should be imposed.  We have turned ordinary grief and anger, useful emotions that all humans (other than psychotics who have no such emotions) undergo from time to time, into an excuse to hand out a pill -- but in many cases those pills are worse than the cause for their prescription!

At the same time this leads us to be ridiculously and culpably lax in the monitoring that must be applied to legitimate uses for these drugs.

The pharmaceutical industry will no doubt excoriate any such suggestion, since it is part and parcel of development of such drugs that many prescriptions must be written in order to make their development "worth it."  That is, wide appeal and use, and therefore lax supervision, is essential to the existing pharmaceutical model.

But when it comes to psychotropic medication this is not only unacceptable it is grossly irresponsible and must end here and now.

Finally, we must accept that there is evil in the world.  We can prevent some of these events and mitigate others, but we cannot stop them all.  Removing the "soft target" attraction may not prevent every such assault but it will increase the odds that the attempt will be thwarted or the harm minimized, as occurred in Oregon.  Imposing requirements for both proactive clinical monitoring of persons on psychotropic drugs and attaching liability to clinicians who do not appropriately monitor their patients will force an examination of whether the treatment modalities and claimed "disorders" we shove pills at are in fact justified or whether we're creating a cure that in many cases is worse than the disease.

And finally, we must confront the fact that many of those who hold the levers of power are in fact low-level functional psychopaths themselves, and it is their grasp for power, influence and control that at many levels is inhibiting the application of logical debate and fact-finding to incidents like this, as they choose instead to protect themselves and their power while increasing the harm done to society as a whole.

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Had_enough
Posts: 11
Incept: 2011-10-17

Oregon
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Thank you for laying out such a logical and coherent argument, Karl. It helps me make the point to those who need to hear it as I'm not as articulate as you.
Poorsaver
Posts: 365
Incept: 2008-05-20

Sunshine Tax State
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This follow up post to yesterday's are two of your best Karl.

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"I'm going to need a hacksaw"----Jack Bauer
"You can get killed walking your doggie!"----Vincent Hanna
Winstonsmith2009
Posts: 1060
Incept: 2009-08-05

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Unfortunately, all of the remedies you list other than the secure classroom doors which I'd also suggested rely on reasoned thought to overcome emotional hysteria, the lack of which is the same reason our various national problems aren't being and won't be fixed by voters. The statistic that in the US one is more likely to kill oneself than to be violently killed by someone else also carries no weight because emotion overcomes reason.

I suspect that secure doors for classrooms would be a politically correct campaign that could easily succeed since the analogy of armored doors for passenger aircraft could be used. The ideal armed teachers solution probably won't.
Andysvw
Posts: 1721
Incept: 2010-06-26
Green
Tujunga Ca
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Man I wish I could write that well. Thats the most Grown up thought I have heard in a long time.
Kalez
Posts: 6
Incept: 2011-10-26

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Karl

Just a reference for ya for further use in articles; some places are trying the guns in the schools here[TX].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrold_Ind....

'Packing for school: Guns on campus one year later'
http://www.reporternews.com/news/2009/au....
Musicandnature
Posts: 1949
Incept: 2007-12-05
Gold
NJ
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another ticker well-seasoned with wisdom and basically irrefutable logic.

My relief pharmacist had the opposite view of me and you today- instead we should go the way of Japan and make gun ownership almost totally forbidden.
yeh that will work. not. I'm sure the criminals would love it though.

You know what's crazy also ? big pharma is now pushing some anti-depressants for nerve-pain reduction. As you say, these drugs have their place but they are getting over-prescribed and often cause more harm than help. I deliver meds to a 94 yo lady who lost her husband and they put her on anti-d and alprazolam.
She is a worse basket case bc of rebound anxiety which is worse than what she began with. In the not-too-distant past, we would discuss our pain with siblings, children or a pastor/priest. Now its give-em-a-drug for everything.

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Since it costs a lot to win, and even more to lose, You and me bound to spend some time wonder'n what to choose. Goes to show, you don't ever know, watch each card you play and play it slow...Wait until that deal come round, don't you let that deal go down, no no. Garcia/Hunter.

Zonkerharris
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Oregon
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WIthout a doubt, the most sensible piece on this matter that I've read this weekend.
Winstonsmith2009
Posts: 1060
Incept: 2009-08-05

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What amazes me after scanning these and other suggested fixes to school security I've found online is the cost issues always mentioned. If people are so freaked out by, as i have pointed out previously, a very tragic but statistically rare event like a school mass shooting, then they should put up or shut up when it comes to funding the minimal fix required to prevent mass casualties by skipping, what, ONE $50 video game for their kid this Christmas. Instead, they rant about the banning of guns, a SEEMINGLY zero cost solution for them, but one that would be ineffective in itself without gun confiscation since there are already so many guns in circulation in the US. Meanwhile, as previously pointed out by Karl, they install HDTVs in schools that they hardly use.

Low-Cost Security Measures for School Facilities

http://www.ncef.org/pubs/low_cost_measur....

Door Locking Options in Schools

www.ncef.org/pubs/door_locks.pdf

What are Columbine Locks?

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-columbi....

Experts say internal locks on classroom doors could save lives

http://www.wmctv.com/story/6855936/exper....
Winstonsmith2009
Posts: 1060
Incept: 2009-08-05

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From my ~15 minutes of research:

1. Replace any tempered glass in classroom doors with laminated glass or polycarbinate glazing material.
2. Install "Columbine locks" on every classroom door.

Total cost per classroom door including installation (cost may be slightly dated) - $300. Cost per student assuming 30-student classes - one time $10 cost.

One more to add that I just read about here in conjunction with a school that has done the above:

http://belmont-ca.patch.com/articles/boa....

"In addition, Tashjian said schools have special shades on classroom windows."

Additional cost unknown to me, but it gives me the idea to suggest that those type of shades should also be used on classroom door windows, too. If they're ballistic types, they could easily be more costly than the $300 for the door glass and lock fix. However, even conventional shades to obstruct vision into the classroom would be well worthwhile.

Reason: Added shades
Noodleman
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Holy crap. You make way, way too much sense, Karl. Expressing common sense like that is looked down upon by all the hand-wringers and oligarchs who strike while the emotional iron's hot to impose their draconian will upon the masses. I predict sometime this next week there is going to be talk in Congress about new gun control legislation. In fact, I would bet on it. A convicted pryomaniac can buy all the gasoline that he wants to. But dammit - let's keep the guns out of his hands! HAH! In all my years I have never ever witnessed so much stinkin' thinkin' in this nation of ours. And it is beginning to frighten me.

The only part of your narrative that I would question is about the psychotropic meds. I have known several people who were on the verge of suicide that SSRI's pulled out of the funk and got their lives back on track. Now I agree that these meds can be overprescribed - mostly because the family doc does not have the time to examine the pysche of his patients. He only has 15 minutes to give them during the visit. So he gives them a pill. And I agree that some mental illness is misdiagnosed too. But many lives are saved with psychotropics. And many schizophrenics live halfway normal lives while on anti-psychotics who would otherwise be chained to beds. Some people (a small percent according to the package inserts) can experience suicidal thoughts after starting SSRI's - but responsible prescribers tell them this at the onset and tell them to stop taking the meds and call the office immediately should such thoughts occur. I come back to the example of the guy who shot Congresswoman Goffords. Crazy as a loon. He fell through the cracks even though all the warning signs were there. He was NOT on medication. No treatment whatsoever. We saw what happened. How many others would act out similarly if those medications were non-existent or unavilable? My opinion.

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"Ammunition beats persuasion when you are looking for freedom." Will Rogers, 4 Nov 1879 - 15 Aug 1935

Truthseeker
Posts: 8474
Incept: 2007-10-07
Silver A True American Patriot!
NorCal
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Your comments regarding the pharmaceuticals involved are particularly astute. ANY lay person has enough published documentation to make the very connections you have made. I cannot imagine this discussion being shunted aside as it has (or argued about, for crying out loud.)

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"...But people better realize that the worst-case scenario could actually happen.9/11 happened. This can happen. An economic 9/11, the likes of which we've never seen." Gerald Celente
Marvinmartian
Posts: 746
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Green
Pasadena, CA
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None of the measures you propose would appeal to nannystate bureaucrats determined to scare people to death to reinforce the power of the state.

As long as the nannystate bureaucrats are also in cahoots with the media, we will see more cries to treat the vast majority of the population as potential mass murderers.
Drkshapiro
Posts: 630
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Gold
Southern CA
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Karl
This piece is good and I'm sure many are wishing that someone had the means to stop the shooting by taking out the one doing the killing. Maybe even with something non-lethal.

On the monitoring--there is not, at present, the trained personnel to monitor psych meds. Even the VA is training vets to monitor other vets in a rushed training program; of course trained vets in this setting are preferable, but they can't hire non-vets.

In non VA settings one waits months in most places to be seen for psych eval. This is similar to what is going to happen with primary care as more get insured; you can't mandate something if you don't have the structure on place. The market can eventually meet primary care needs, but monitoring mental health is more complex.

We need to stop relying on drugs except in extreme cases. Considering the extreme small benefit, if any, from the drugs you mention, provides further rationale. As mentioned above, several antidepressants have multiple indications, and the primary additional use is for neuropathic pain. Most is caused by high blood glucose long-term, so the answer to that is not drugs, but rather to can refined carbs and move.

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Honesty may be the best policy, but it’s important to remember that apparently, by elimination, dishonesty is the second-best policy. --G Carlin
Londoncat
Posts: 29
Incept: 2012-03-02
Green
Kansas
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The City of Kansas City just spent $100 Million on a 2 mile street car project - yep $100 Million for a two mile light rail track that I predict almost NOBODY will use because 1) in is in an area with few residents, 2) everyone in KC already relies on cars for transportation, and 3) parking is plentiful in the downtown area.

Just adding the Columbine deadbolt locks to 3,000 doors would have cost the district $600,000. Give the KC school district $100 Million, and I'm pretty sure they could make for a pretty safe school environment.

Had_enough
Posts: 11
Incept: 2011-10-17

Oregon
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Karl,
I felt your commentary was so logical and well reasoned that it needed to be seen at the top. Ergo, I sent the link to the White House. I don't know how far up the food chain it will get, but "if you don't knock on the door, nobody answers". I'm going to send it to my congressional representatives next. We need to counter the anti-gun hysteria currently being bandied about.
Duc888
Posts: 7368
Incept: 2008-11-06
Gold
CT, the UNconstitution State
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...plenty of money for Apple computers and Ipads....but the State sure cheeses out on low buck security measures. Follow the money.

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...burp
Winstonsmith2009
Posts: 1060
Incept: 2009-08-05

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Here we go again. Tragic but statistically insignificant incidents used to frighten the herd into a complete non-solution:

Top Democrat will seek new gun law in next Congress

http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/....

California Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D, said she intended to introduce a gun control bill on the first day of the next Congress. Paired with a twin version in the House, Feinstein's law would take aim at limiting the sale, transfer and possession of assault weapons, along with the capacity of high-capacity magazines.

A federal ban on assault weapons, first passed in 1994 and signed by President Bill Clinton, expired in 2004. And while Obama has said he favors its reinstatement, the administration has hardly thrown its weight behind such a proposal during his first term.

Reminds me of this Family Guy segment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YOh-rpv....
Plaztiq
Posts: 239
Incept: 2007-08-08
Green A True American Patriot!
Bay Area, CA
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Karl,

You mean that people who are in positions of power are psychoPATHic, not psychotic.

Psychotic means not being able to distinguish external reality from internally generated signals from your brain - hearing voices, hallucinating, etcetera. A way to describe it is you're dreaming while you're awake, and you don't know which part is just you dreaming, and which part is the real world. Probably like being on an acid trip. Trust me, psychotic people are not in board rooms, and if they are, they won't last there long. Psychosis is also most times transitory. Speaking from personal experience here. Psychopaths on the other hand...
Truthseeker
Posts: 8474
Incept: 2007-10-07
Silver A True American Patriot!
NorCal
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Quote:
California Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D, said she intended to introduce a gun control bill on the first day of the next Congress.


Surprise, surprise...

----------
"...But people better realize that the worst-case scenario could actually happen.9/11 happened. This can happen. An economic 9/11, the likes of which we've never seen." Gerald Celente
Architect
Posts: 830
Incept: 2007-07-11
Green
london UK
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Please Karl.. don't bend facts
This piece contains updated statistics for my most-read post. The comments under that post have been coming steadily since 2007.

In the US – population 311.5 million (1) – there were an estimated 13,756 murders in 2009 (2), a rate of about 5.0 per 100,000 (3). Of these 9,203 were carried out with a firearm.

In the UK – population 56.1 million (4) – there were an estimated 550 murders in 2011-12 (5), a rate of about 1.4 per 100,000. Of these 39 were carried out with a firearm (6).

References

(1) United States Census Bureau (undated). State and Country Quick Facts. Available from: http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/....

(2) United States Census Bureau (2012) 2012 Statistical Abstract – Table 310. Murder Victims – Circumstances and Weapons Used or Cause of Death: 2000-2009. Available from http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2....

(3) United States Census Bureau (2012) 2012 Statistical Abstract – Table 306. Crimes and Crime Rates by Type of Offence: 1980-2009. Available from: http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2....

(4) Office for National Statistics (2011). 2011 Census Home. Available from: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/guide-method/c....

(5) Home Office (2012). Historical Crime Data. Available from: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publication....

(6) Home Office (2010). Home Office Statistical Bulletin. Homicides, Firearm Offences and Intimate Violence 2008/09. Available from: http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.u....
Noodleman
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Architect,

Since you are from the UK perhaps you could enlighten me. I lived in western Europe in the 70's. As I recall, back then the British police in London did not carry sidearms. And as I recall, gun laws were very strict back then. Now I understand that the London cops do carry sidearms even though even stricter gun laws (practical bans) have been initiated. So how did the gun laws change from the 70's to the 90's and if your society has so little gun violence - why did the cops start carrying sidearms when before they didn't??? Just curious. Thank you.

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"Ammunition beats persuasion when you are looking for freedom." Will Rogers, 4 Nov 1879 - 15 Aug 1935

Genesis
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Incept: 2007-06-26
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Architect -- read the Harvard study.

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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Truthseeker
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NorCal
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Don't confuse him with the facts, Karl. His mind is made up. smiley

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"...But people better realize that the worst-case scenario could actually happen.9/11 happened. This can happen. An economic 9/11, the likes of which we've never seen." Gerald Celente
Genesis
Posts: 130679
Incept: 2007-06-26
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I'm not quite sure why I should be happier if I get strangled with a lamp cord (and die) than shot with a gun (and die), but somehow that seems to be his assertion.

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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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