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| Are You Smarter Than A 5th Grader? (CT Shooting) in forum [Market-Ticker]
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Djloche
Posts: 3280
Incept: 2008-07-07
In the Mountains
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"If we wish to be free, we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to arms and to the God of Hosts is all that is left us! Gentlemen may cry, "Peace! Peace!" -- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle?"
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Veedubforlife
Posts: 40
Incept: 2011-08-19
United States
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The hard part about arguing with the idiots about this one is that, according to news reports, the shooter's firearm was legally purchased by and licensed to his parents. They'll hold up this one factoid and say "ha, therefore all of your arguments are invalid," effectively sticking their fingers in their ears and shouting "lalalalalalalalala" until you stop talking.
But then again, they do that anyway, don't they?
And that one factoid doesn't change the incontrovertible fact that people who do shootings like this back down when the playing field is level, and if they don't then they get shot. Ideally the playing field is tilted *against* the criminal because lots of people are ready to shoot at him.
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Crispyambulance
Posts: 1
Incept: 2010-07-12
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Just like how the existence of adults like you, Karl, has meant hope for this nation. The problem with democracy is that, if out of every ten people nine are fools, no political process can derive wisdom from their votes without ignoring the votes of the nine fools. Credit to Carlyle for that. Yeah, I'll give you that some smart people exist, but there's nothing like a universalsuffrage democracy to ensure that in the longrun they don't matter.
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Visualcsharp
Posts: 343
Incept: 2009-12-19
Round Rock, TX
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Karl, you're preaching to the choir. Many people are simply scared of guns; logic never enters into the discussion in their minds. It's just raw, animalistic fear of violence, and the easiest way to quell that fear, in their minds, is to "ban guns." The only time that reality will dawn on those people is when they are one of the adults in that school in Connecticut, staring down the barrel of a pistol as that punk pulls the trigger. The idea that men can be so evil is unbelievable to these people so they transfer their fear to righteous anger directed at the tools themselves (guns).
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Kochevnik
Posts: 549
Incept: 2007-07-30
Dallas TX
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So Pika - dont get me wrong - I completely agree with you, but I dont see a SOLUTION here.
Who exactly do you see as protecting the schools from these nutcases ? Do you honestly think your average left wing school teachers are all going to start packing ?
If you dont like armed guards or DHS / cop 'thugs' patrolling the schools then who do you have doing it ?
(This is a serious question not flame bait).
Because I would venture to say if you opened up schools to CHL holders, you might have ONE teacher who would carry on a regular basis and a few who do so intermittently. And none of them would be under any impetus to do more than protect themselves.
Private, Armed. Guards.
(especially unemployed ex-vets).
Give me a REAL solution better than that.
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There are decades where nothing happens - and there are weeks where decades happen.
-- Vladimir Ilyich Lenin
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Noodleman
Posts: 2394
Incept: 2008-11-01
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Not sure if the 5th grader is smarter. He may very well be. But obviously his mind is not nearly as clouded with propoganda and politically correct BS as the hand wringer's are. Gun control will only keep criminal' safe. America is gun nation. Since our inception. It's impossible to turn the clock back on that one - even if they wanted to. I've seen it estimated that there are as many as 310 million non-military firearms in the USA. How would they make those disapppear? Even the thought is preposterous. But this will be a perfect opportunity for the hand wringer's in congress to hurry up and approve Obama's proposal to paper over the 'fiscal cliff' so that the oligarchs can move onto the topic of gun control legislation to 'save the children'. Boy, I bet Bob Costas is having a field day about right now, eh??? Watch him make hay while the sun shines on this one!!!!
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"Ammunition beats persuasion when you are looking for freedom." Will Rogers, 4 Nov 1879 - 15 Aug 1935
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Otiswild
Posts: 5627
Incept: 2009-03-09
Inside you, the force is!
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So I guess the only solution is for he police to go door to door without probable cause to confiscate every firearm they can find (while turning every property of course) all at the same time, like the night of the long knives.
Man, it might be time to bring all my guns and PMs out canoeing..
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Crzymorse
Posts: 1195
Incept: 2010-06-25
Maryland
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The real issue is the first amendment not the second amendment. As long as the psychopaths keep getting the media attention they will just try to outdo each other. The media attention is the goal, the gun is only the means. If you ban guns it will be explosives, gasoline, propane or a couple dozen other things. The best way to shut this down in the future is to focus on the victims and completely ignore the killers.
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Pika-steph
Posts: 54735
Incept: 2007-09-11
Live Free Or Die; US Army Est. 1775
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Kochevnik - I responded to you in the thread in Breaking and I clearly stated my reasoning behind my opposition to having 'armed police' at schools. I never said I would be opposed to private security. I am absolutely in favor of training whomever is employed by the school who wants to volunteer. One could be assured those people usually care about kids if they're already working in the field.  All this is actually keeping anyone from thinking of why some of these incidences are on the rise. I don't mean gun crime, I mean these crimes of horrific proportions. Is it that people have lost all morality? I don't think so. I think it goes hand-in-hand with this: http://www.naturalnews.com/038322_DSM-5_....There's a reason that the new DSM-5 now basically labels every possible human emotion a 'mental disorder.' What do we know for a FACT is common between say, Columbine, the Colorado theatre (Joker) incident and the mass shooting in Norway? All the perps were taking psychotropic medication. Chances are, with a diagnosis of Aspbergers and a purported 'personality disorder' this perp was drugged up on 'mental health' pharmaceuticals as well. I think it's time to rip apart the pharmaceutical monopolies that are literally manufacturing reasons to prescribe dangerous drugs. I think it's time to say, 'ENOUGH'! If kids are unruly in school, they're labeled ADD and fed a pill; if someone is depressed, they're fed a pill; can't sleep, there's a pill for that. I think it's time to examine what this is doing to people.
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Stop the Looting; Start Prosecuting - http://www.FedUpUSA.org/ "The only regulation that really works is failure."--Rick Santelli
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Indeep
Posts: 773
Incept: 2008-02-05
Red pills are not available to the sheeple.
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My sympathy to those that lost loved ones today. This was truly a tragic event. I certainly don't have all the answers but I do know this is an analog world. It is not divided up into obvious binary segments like good and evil, right and wrong, retards and genius, or crazy and sane. There are grey areas. Most of the population fits into these grey areas even though they don't think they do. A wise man once wrote -- Walk with those who seek the truth, run from those who claim they have found it. (unknown) -- Those that claim they know how to stop this kind of tragedy from ever happening again are unlikely to have found the answer.
This, in my humble opinion was a six sigma event. In a population of more than three hundred million people there are a few people out there that shouldn't be. And they will do unthinkable things. We, as humans have a very hard time dealing with these rare and unusual tragedies because they don't fit into what we perceive daily, as normal. Indeed these events are not.

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Don't believe everything you think!
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. - Albert Einstein
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Chimichanga
Posts: 526
Incept: 2011-03-16
Tokyo
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In talking with gun-ban-loving associates, maybe it would be helpful to cite cases of deranged people killing schoolchildren in countries despite gun bans. For example, a guy attacked kids with a knife in an elementary school in China what, just 2 days ago. Quote: A man with a knife has wounded 22 children - at least two of them seriously - and an adult at a primary school in central China. [snip] Security at China's schools has been increased in recent years following a spate of similar knife attacks in which nearly 20 children have been killed. And here are some snippets from a 2010 BBC article, also about China: Quote: A man who killed at least three children in a knife attack at a Chinese kindergarten has been arrested. [snip] More than 27 people have died and at least 80 have been injured in knife attacks, several in schools, since the beginning of the year. [snip] Nine people died in a kindergarten knife attack on 12 May. The same month, a man was sentenced to death for stabbing 29 people at a kindergarten in Jiangsu. It's not as if gun-free societies never have these issues with deranged people. A determined killer is going to find a way to do it. Sources: (2012 article): http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-chi....(2010 article): http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pac....
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Berkleyreindeer
Posts: 665
Incept: 2008-07-22
Minneapolis , MN
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SOLUTION: MANDATORY firearm training. Give every single person gun training. Issue every person a firearm. Make it part of our cultural identity. Make the people disassemble, fire, and clean their firearms. Target practice as a form of recreation. Ah, the smell would be exhilarating...
We can live in the safest place in the world!
That way the entire US can be just like a military base! It would be impossible to shoot up a military base. I mean, come on! It's a military base...no one would be that ****ing stupid!
How many people did Hasan kill? How many more did he shoot?
And what is the solution? An arms race in a school? Follow your logic to its conclusion. The 2nd amendment doesn't have an age limit. It's about time we arm those kids.
I was waiting for the ticker to come out that makes this into an attack on guns. I wasn't disappointed either. Thanks for the deep thoughts.
I don't have a solution, but yours has already been tried. And it failed.
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It'll get worse. Just wait.
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Mortgageguymn
Posts: 1566
Incept: 2009-03-09
North Coast
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I'm pretty sure that soldiers at Fort Hood were not allowed to carry weapons around. Hasan was shooting up a gun-free zone... on a military base.
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Kochevnik
Posts: 549
Incept: 2007-07-30
Dallas TX
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Pika :
So like the volunteer firefighter idea. I think it's not a bad one, but there are 98,000 public schools in the USA - at say 4 or 5 volunteers a day probably once a week you're talking about 2 or 3 million armed trained 'volunteers' needed.
It's a nice idea, but not very realistic. As pointed out many times here :) the math doesnt work.
Private guards would be 500k people @ say 40k a year (only need to work 9 months) = $20 billion a year or about $133 tax per worker per year.
I don't know if that math works either seeing as how we are broke and getting broker.
In any case, I solved my problem just like you did :) - I homeschool my kids - I have no intention of playing the anti-lottery. Cost is too high.
And I think you nailed it about the drugs issue. This is blowback from medicating the hell out of all the kids over the last 20+ years. Add Columbine to that list too. They're all young, mental problems, and usually on meds for a long time before they go nuts.
Anyways in the big picture - just another crack in the facade of modern life. In the end it all comes tumbling down even IF we do manage to find solutions to SOME of these problems.
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There are decades where nothing happens - and there are weeks where decades happen.
-- Vladimir Ilyich Lenin
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Vitchilo
Posts: 4637
Incept: 2011-04-27
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It seems Hollywood ain't smarter than a 5th grader : http://www.thewrap.com/media/column-post....Quote:"Too soon to speak out about a gun-crazy nation? No, too late," tweeted "Bowling for Columbine" director Michael Moore. "At least THIRTY-ONE school shootings since Columbine."
"The way to honor these dead children is to demand strict gun control, free mental health care, and an end to violence as public policy," he added.
Current TV host John Fugelsang condemned what he said were lax gun laws.
"America likes guns the way the rest of the world likes soccer," he tweeted, adding: "Guns don't kill people. People in states without gun-purchase background checks & waiting periods kill people."
"Across the Universe" star Evan Rachel Wood tweeted: "What is it going to take? #guncontrol"
Added pop singer Michelle Branch: "Gun control people!!! My heart is breaking. As a parent this is my worst nightmare."
"Parks & Recreation" star Rashida Jones agreed.
"Gun control is our only road to freedom," she said. "Freedom from the fear of senselessly losing children. I'm so saddened. WE NEED LAWS NOW."
CNN host Piers Morgan said the tragedy led to what is "now President Obama's biggest test - will he have the courage to stand up to the American gun lobby?"
Actress Mia Farrow tweeted that "gun control is no longer debatable -- it's not a 'conversation' -- It's a moral mandate."
Comedian Patton Oswalt agreed there was no room for discussion: "Yeah, I'll wade right the **** into this: MORE gun control, MORE mental health services. It's no longer a debate. Never was. #newtown"
Actor Adam Shankman recalled the massacre in Aurora. "This year: CO movie theater, OR mall, and now CT school," he tweeted. "How many innocents must die before we enforce more gun control! Prayer for #newton"
Most recently, "30 Rock" star Alec Baldwin chimed in on the Twitter conversation and wrote, "One storm after another.... #GunControlNow."
Added Funny or Die co-founder Adam McKay: "NRA and Washington share portion of responsibility for today's hideous shooting. We need reasonable gun control RIGHT NOW." Instead of gun control, take down the big pharma lobby. ALL of these mass shooters were on big pharma drugs. ALL OF THEM. And make more laws? MURDER IS ILLEGAL!! How could this have had happened!! Impossible... a law made it illegal therefore, it couldn't have had happened! The problem is not the guns, it's the CULTURE, propaganda from the MSM and the big pharma drugs. In Switzerland, they got more guns per capita than the US, yet this kind of stuff NEVER HAPPENS. Swisses aren't on drugs like Americans are : http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-....Quote:Americans consume EIGHTY percent of the world's pain pills as prescription drug abuse epidemic explodes Telling you something?
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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H.L. Mencken
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Colk55
Posts: 2428
Incept: 2010-02-11
Indiana
Online
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Genesis wrote..the BAD GUYS! They don’t care about laws. They weren’t going to follow them anyway.’ Apply this to just about anything. Alcohol, illegal drugs, prescription drugs, guns, anything. You simply cannot legislate something out of existence, plain and simple.
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The politician's motto: If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull****.
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Jonesapple10
Posts: 379
Incept: 2010-11-09
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I find it incredible that the gun debate bull**** has to come out so quickly. I don't give a damn what side your on. I have two young girls and all I can think about is how lucky I am they came home today. The problem isn't whether or not guns are legal to own, carry, etc. (I have a concealed carry permit). The problem is we live in such a GODLESS society that its possible for a kid to walk into a school and shoot terrified children one by one until they are all dead.
Personally I don't give a **** who owns a gun, who can carry where or any of that. All I can think about is those terrified children and what a tragedy this is. The criminals will find ways to hurt - millions of illegal guns alone are still on the street, let alone knives, bombs, whatever.
Maybe the debate should be about FAMILY AND GOD AND RESPONSIBILITY.
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Kochevnik
Posts: 549
Incept: 2007-07-30
Dallas TX
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Quote: I don't have a solution, but yours has already been tried. And it failed. Actually it has NOT been tried. And you don't have a solution. Much like every other problems we are facing - there ARE solutions, it's just that the American public, just like you, don't have the stones to implement them. And the sad thing is that, in the end, you're going to pay far more than you ever dreamed of for not stepping up and making the hard decisions. Bottom line : the American people are willing to take acceptable losses - just more collateral damage - so that their way of life can continue UNCHANGED. And for all the God/Morality types out there - in a tangential way you are right, but these guys are all heavily medicated nutcases - is bringing God and Morality back into the USA going to stop them from killing more kids. Again, highly doubtful. Again there are solutions, we're just too chicken**** as a people as a society to pay the price. But I've wasted too much time here tonight when I should have been DOING something instead of just talking - so I will shut up now LOL
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There are decades where nothing happens - and there are weeks where decades happen.
-- Vladimir Ilyich Lenin
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Bagbalm
Posts: 4264
Incept: 2009-03-19
Just North of Detroit
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Not everyone has the mental capacity to use weapons, just like not everyone should drive, or fly airplanes, or trade stocks. Forcing them ALL to carry is a bad idea.
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Mortgageguymn
Posts: 1566
Incept: 2009-03-09
North Coast
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"Parks & Recreation" star Rashida Jones agreed. "Gun control is our only road to freedom," she said. "Freedom from the fear of senselessly losing children. I'm so saddened. WE NEED LAWS NOW." Yeah - it's not like you can kill a bunch of kids without guns... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School.... If only we'd banned box-cutters. We could have prevented 9/11. We need serious gun control - like Jamaica. Then we'll have a peaceful society - like Jamaica. We can't let people run around with guns like they do in Wyoming. Heck, the murder rate there is raging almost as high as Canada's. (Murder rate in Jamaica is about 60 times that of Wyoming.)
Reason: thought of more
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Vitchilo
Posts: 4637
Incept: 2011-04-27
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And now put the tin foil hat on : http://www.tnr.com/blog/plank/111148/thr....Quote:Three Miles From Connecticut Shooting, a Bastion of Gun Rights
Just across the highway from Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut, in a stately white building with an American flag flying out front, is the headquarters of the United States’ premiere industry association for gun retailers.
It’s not the consumer-focused National Rifle Association. The National Shooting Sports Foundation has kept a lower profile over the years, but is likely the second-most-powerful force for firearms use in the country. Coincidence? Probably. But who knows with these sickos. After all, they engineered Fast And Furious to ban guns... wouldn't be a big deal to them to stage that.
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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H.L. Mencken
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Noodleman
Posts: 2394
Incept: 2008-11-01
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Ya know, one place I think America could improve to help avert these tragedies is pay more attention to mental illness. If you look at most of these shootings (Colorado, Congresswomen Gifford, this one, etc...) the common denominator is usually mental illness (biological or self-induced through drugs). If I go into the downtown area of any large city I see the insane walking all around talking to themselves. Many are not dangerous. But you only need one to act out violently. And we're told they are allowed to walk around untreated because we live in a 'free' country. Ok, that's fine. But then we have 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's prison inmates. And that doesn't pass the stink test either. But instead of taking money away from the banksters and using it to combat mental illness CONgress critters will tell us it's time to line up outside our local cop shop and voluntarily surrender the hardware. They never ever get it right. Not even once.
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"Ammunition beats persuasion when you are looking for freedom." Will Rogers, 4 Nov 1879 - 15 Aug 1935
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Killben
Posts: 207
Incept: 2009-12-07
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Gen,
From the picture (school or store), the following possibilities exists:
1. The bad guy may pull the trigger before the good guy gets his gun out 2. Given that there will be multiple good guys and if each pulls the gun out and shoots then we could have more casualties 3. Good guys could be bad shots.. again increases the probability of casualties
Also in the event there is a scuffle among the good guys and one of the good guy becomes a bad guy, you could have casualties which might not happened if the good guys did not have a gun.
While I do not profess to have the right answer, I still feel that providing a gun may not necessarily be the right answer. The solution is probably more complex.
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Vitchilo
Posts: 4637
Incept: 2011-04-27
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Quote:They never ever get it right. Not even once. They never intended to get it right. The point is CONTROL.
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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H.L. Mencken
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