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| Bernanke's Erroneous Solace in forum [Market-Ticker]
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Themortgagedude
Posts: 8849
Incept: 2007-12-17
saint louis
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No way rates go up - until they do. At the end of this road lies one badass  for the FSA.
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I'm already visualizing you with duct tape over your mouth.
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Marvinmartian
Posts: 750
Incept: 2011-03-16
Pasadena, CA
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When rates go up, debt-backed money defined by FederalReserveNotes dies.
The marketplace will find and use another means of exchange. I'm not prescient enough to make predictions about the future.
In another thread, I proposed that gramsAu was outdated(this is how Goldmoney was supposed to work). It might be kw-Hr that backs money, and we use tokens/paper to trade.
1 kw-Hr is about a dime at the retail level. As others predicted in a Sci-Fi novel, this unit was called the kwaher. (Frederick & Pohl, "Space Merchants")
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Savingsaretheway
Posts: 118
Incept: 2011-12-16
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There will be no thunderous demand from the masses for Fed tightening because the average American is not able to draw the connection between prices and monetary policy. The average American probably doesn't even know what the Federal Reserve is, much less the impact is has on their lives.
The Fed will still be forced to hike rates due to inflation anyway, but who knows when. The expansion in the monetary base is a massive powder keg that even the slightest up tick in money velocity will ignite.
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Bertdilbert
Posts: 2658
Incept: 2008-12-22
CA
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Quote:Here's the problem -- if The Fed starts selling the assets on its balance sheet and takes losses doing so, then those losses also belong to Treasury! This in turn makes the deficit worse. Karl while you are correct, it is not going to happen. There is no removing it from the Fed balance sheet in the normal way, hence no typical exit strategy. It will get washed at some future point but not by dumping it back into the market competing with government issuance and interest rates.
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Dear Euroland: Relax, Germany has a plan for your money!
Political Capital Defined: We are out of money but will tax our citizens for whatever it takes to "SAVE" the Euro.
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Marvinmartian
Posts: 750
Incept: 2011-03-16
Pasadena, CA
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savings wrote..The Fed will still be forced to hike rates The Fed will never hike interest rates, because the Fed creates low rates by buying the Treasury/Agency debt that no one else wants. This makes the current US deficit/debt somewhat sound on a financial basis. Once the market start shunning the FRN as a store of value, the jig is up. The dollar is then important only as a medium of exchange. The market will find other vehicles to serve as a store of value... like farmland, rental property, NG/oil, forests, maybe even Au/Ag. In polite terms, this is called inflation. I don't think it will be hyperinflation; maybe it will be more like the 70s.
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Ktrosper
Posts: 1500
Incept: 2010-04-06
ft collins co
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Gen wrote.....there is no such thing as a free lunch, and if you think you found one you simply overlooked the cost. Perfectly said. Although in this case, America is being sold a free lunch by a sociopathic con-man who is deliberately hiding the cost of the lunch... None of this is possible if people learned and accepted the "no free lunch" law of nature.
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The unexamined life is not worth living.-Socrates The only stable state is the one in which all men are equal before the law.-Aristotle Liberty exists now in the spaces government has not yet chosen to occupy.-Doc Zero I anticipate that 10 Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders will blow me this evening.-K.D
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Savingsaretheway
Posts: 118
Incept: 2011-12-16
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Marvin,
I understand the skepticism relating to the Fed's willingness to throw the mortgage and Treasury markets to wolves to fight inflation, if push comes to shove. You may be right, but Bernanke continues to imply other wise when asked.
If inflation reaches the point where it can no longer be masked or trivialized, it may very well be that we see price controls long before a rate hike. In fact, that could be the plan all along.
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Deckchairs
Posts: 96
Incept: 2012-07-06
The Slightly lessDemocrat -IC People's Rebuplic of Las
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Maybe I am crazy Karl but how does this insane level of monetization 70% of treasury issuance not end very badly? I mean China is already trading with its Asian partners and devoping internal demand. They are pretty close to telling us "your credit no good here, you pay with gold!"
How can we possibly get through the next ten years without some period of deflationary collapse and hyperinflation at another point?
Its not like we produce that much as in manufacturing. And as for food wouldn't ADM, Cargill and the like just sell to foreign bidders when the dollar regains its fiat toilet paper status and let Americans starve to death. And I don't see how we could transition to natural gas fast enough to stave off the death knell that petrodollar hegemony ending entails.
I just don't see how this ends well for the average American idiot like myself.
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If I could just get my tax attorney to be my girlfriend life would be all right.
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Trades50
Posts: 4215
Incept: 2007-10-30
Land of Tax and Spend
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Quote: If inflation reaches the point where it can no longer be masked or trivialized, it may very well be that we see price controls long before a rate hike. In fact, that could be the plan all along. The fed ousted their conservatives and now are staffed with money printers. Even with the risk of inflation they will try other methods to maintain lower rates. They know the treasury is a bomb that will blow. Once the US dollar is shunned it's all over for them. Right now their happy they have company around the world with Japan and others. The fed just keeps expanding it's balance sheet. Bernanke stated this for the foreseeable future.
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When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Donethat
Posts: 771
Incept: 2009-04-22
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Stanford economist and Journal contributor John Taylor says the Fed has bought more than 70% of new Treasury debt issuance this year. Well now, how could that be. The FRB H4 says they have 1.5 Trillion in treasuries, DOWN 15 Billion from last year. Wasn't from rolling Treasuries, they only had 18 Billion in Bills a year ago. A little research shows Taylor's original quote was about FY 2011, which ended 15 months ago, while the lazy WSJ editorial writes could not be bothered to get their factoids straight. Nothing new there. Taylor was spot on about FY 2011. FRB increased Treasury holdings by 850 Billion. The same timeframe the Banksters printed more money in zero fractional reserve lending land and deposited more hundreds of Billions at the FRB. Some commentary on Taylor's original sayings. http://macroblog.typepad.com/macroblog/2.... And Taylor's blog.. http://www.johnbtaylorsblog.blogspot.com.... Bottom line, last 15 months FRB has done nada. Until Bernanke's owners print more money and deposit it at the FRB, The FRB ain't going to be buying any big amounts of new Treasury debt. All the FRB holdings are long term over a year, most over 10 years. They are not even "rolling" any new debt. They get say about 45 billion a year in interest which they hand back to Timmy, no Treasury buying purse there. The tickercon 5 news will be when the banksters deposit 45 or 90 billion new printed money a month in the FRB to make Bernanke good on his air promises.
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Sondergaard
Posts: 687
Incept: 2007-07-13
Big Trees
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Genesis wrote..if The Fed starts selling the assets on its balance sheet and takes losses doing so, then those losses also belong to Treasury! Huh? Let's say the Fed buys an MBS for $1 billion. When it goes to sell it (some day, maybe) all it can get is $250 million. Are you saying that Treasury has to give the Fed $750 million? Is the Fed required by law to vaporize the same amount of money when it sells an asset that it printed when it bought it? And if it doesn't get what it paid, Treasury has to surrender the difference to be vaporized? I thought the Fed could just vaporize the $250 million (in this example), "donate" the rest to the money supply, and call it good. Is that wrong?
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And it won't make one bit of difference if I answer right or wrong; when you're rich, they think you really know. --Fiddler on the Roof
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Bagbalm
Posts: 4255
Incept: 2009-03-19
Just North of Detroit
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"If inflation reaches the point where it can no longer be masked or trivialized, it may very well be that we see price controls long before a rate hike. In fact, that could be the plan all along."
I remember Nixon. He tried wage and price controls to cure the emergency of 4% run-away interest. About 18 months later with government help it was up to around 14%. And they destroyed the agreements to settle in gold between nations.
Now, if they simply freeze prices - and given Obama's authoritarian personality I can see them doing that, especially since the average person would understand what they are doing, it sounds simple, then historically what happens is the shelves go bare. If people can't charge enough to produce they stop producing.
They still might do it even knowing that's what happens - as long as they don't get the BLAME. If the public is convinced it is greedy business refusing to obey then it's still good because they will be the good guys for TRYING to fix it and business evil for being greedy and uncaring.
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Noodleman
Posts: 2389
Incept: 2008-11-01
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Thanks a million, Karl. The Ticker Forum is the only place where I can obtain truthful and accurate information w/ regard to government's financial policy impact on the capital markets, and the consequences we face in the relative near future unless the games are put to a halt. But, just so you know, it's not pain-free to be so well informed. I tell friends and associates about the implications of our government's financial policy. Sometimes they laugh. But oftentimes I get that quisical or evil eye. So my sense is that we don't have the buy-in from the bulk of the public. So these days unless I happen to be talking with someone of like mind I keep my mouth shut. I don't want to end up like St. Joan of Arc.
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"Ammunition beats persuasion when you are looking for freedom." Will Rogers, 4 Nov 1879 - 15 Aug 1935
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Pj
Posts: 1211
Incept: 2009-12-07
Putnam County, New York
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Quote:Consider what happens if the squeeze on middle-class and below people continues as it has for the last four years, and the spiral of deficit spending that the government is engaged in to try to keep people from recognizing that we've been in (and are in!) a Depression continues to accelerate. At some point the calls for The Fed to "tighten" will become thunderous as the people are no longer able to afford basic necessities. I hate to disagree with you on this Karl, but the masses will never demand that rates rise if they're hungry; they'll demand more gov't handouts, which requires low rates and more gov't printing. This all ends when the currency is destroyed, b/c the avg American is more conditioned to believe in gov't programs and handouts than they are educated to understand that endless/reckless money printing ultimately destroys a currency.
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When the Athenians finally wanted not to give to society but for society to give to them, when the freedom they wished for most was freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free and was never free again.” Edward Gibbon
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Donethat
Posts: 771
Incept: 2009-04-22
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Sondergaard, the FRB, owned by the banks, is the most highly leveraged entity this side of Madoff. In recent years the FRB has passed on 80 to 100 Billion a year in its "profits" aka excess capital to the Treasury.
Now your example of the MBS, they be guaranteed by your GSEs, and like all good banks are carried on the books not at market value, but at maturity basis.
Were the FRB to actually sell some of their long term holdings at a loss, ( for example the FRB owners the banks withdrew some of their deposits forcing the FRB to sell assets) then up to a point, that 80 to 100 billion a year payback to the Treasury would be lessened.
Just as your 30 year treasuries paying 7.5 percent have skyrocked in market value with lower rates, the 30 year treasuries the FRB holds paying 2.9 percent will crater when rates go up. All is good until the banks withdraw their deposits and the Treasury does not mint a magic coin.
Instead of Monopoly, Bankster kids play "Bankrupt the Fed".
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Publius
Posts: 853
Incept: 2009-03-08
Greenville, SC.
Online
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If the Fed takes a loss, then the asset vs liability equation of the balance sheet is upset, with an imbalance of FRNs (or digital equivalent) on the liability side. There is now more money than there is assets backing it. This looks bad. The Fed needs to suck the difference out of the money supply to restore balance. It can't just vaporize money. The way it normally removes money is to sell assets, exchaning assets for FRNs, which lowers the money supply.
If the problem is losses on those assets, then selling more just increases the problem.
If Fed "profits" go to Treasury, then losses must be pulled out of Treasury as well. That is, if the Fed loses money. And note that a loss of money for the central bank means an excess of currency. This is the topsy turvy world of the central bank, and its game of fiat money creation. A profit would be an excess of assets, or a loss of money supply. This is why the central bank must give its profits away (beyond what it must spend itself) -- to keep from reducing the money supply in unbalanced fashion.
A loss is increasing money supply in unbalanced fashion. I know this may blow your mind when you first consider it, but it's really quite simple.
The Fed actually came up with a clever mechanism to hide such a loss, and that is the negative liability to Treasury. A negative liability is really an asset in disguise, and the effect is the Fed says the Treasury issued it debt to cover the loss. This will be repaid by *stopping* returning "profits" back to Treasury until the loss is sastified, the excess money is pulled back, and the balance sheet returns to balance.
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Wisrich
Posts: 13
Incept: 2010-11-05
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You missing one important variable: Time. As in ..Hey look at Japan. They're coming up on their Silver Anniversary of the same economic BS and it hasn't imploded yet"
Wake me up when Japan goes into collapse then I'll start to get worried.Until then, The FED has Carte Blanche
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Jslique
Posts: 466
Incept: 2008-07-28
Melbourne
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you will not have to worry about inflation. Some clown on NPR the other day was going on about substitution will halve the inflation rate. Also save a lot of money on .Gov benefits as their increases are tied to the inflation rate. So road kill replaces chuck steak and news paper replaces the super soft toilet tissue. once again lying makes it all better.
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Jslique
Posts: 466
Incept: 2008-07-28
Melbourne
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Wis
If you think the people in America have the same make up as the Japanese you might be right. Their culture is a lot different. Then again I never thought the Irish would bend over and spread there butt checks as easily as they did.
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Adrenaline_junky
Posts: 1869
Incept: 2007-09-14
Chicago
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Wouldn't they just let the Fed implode before passing "republic ending" losses back to Treasury? And then voila, Fed 2.0.
I've always sort of cynically thought this is one of the "ace in the hole" reasons for having the Fed in the first place.
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"If Goldman Sachs is doing God's work, they must be referring to the cruel God of the Old Testament who brought forth plagues, floods, and pestilence." - Me
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Snooze
Posts: 2827
Incept: 2007-07-09
florida
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Good illustration Publius....I had forgotten about the negative liability trick. Tangled web comes to mind here.
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Wealth is found in the warmth of the sun, in the coolness of moist soil, in the taste of fresh air, and in the pulse of your heart. Plant a seed and harvest your riches.
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Marvinmartian
Posts: 750
Incept: 2011-03-16
Pasadena, CA
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Savingsaretheway,
The Federal Reserve is one of the regulators of the banking system. They are supposed to be a "bankers bank" that lends to banks when they get in trouble.
Now, because of political pressure, they are forced to monetize the debt issuance of the Treasury. This is accomplished by buying long term Treasuries and agency MBS, and giving electronic credits to those that originally held the notes. Dont forget, that until 2008, the only asset of the FRB was short term Treasuries.
I dont think that Benny is voluntarily doing this. I think he is subject to political pressure and is desperate to not buy this long term paper that will default in a few years. He is a banker, and would do this only if faced an alternative of financial wipeout.
That being said, there is a huge trading marketplace that will find other means of exchange. Some localities are printing scripp. Some individuals expect to use Au/Ag. I predict we will see use of FRN's for a while, then they will prove to be so unreliable that we will all use alternative means of exchange.
In this day and age, I predict that energy, or the promise to deliver energy, is the ultimate store of value. It might be in terms of kiloWatt-Hour, it might be in MCF of NG, it might be barrel of oil. We are an energy-hungry society and our monetary system should reflect that.
Economies evolve. We are about to see the next stage of the evolutionary process.
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Sondergaard
Posts: 687
Incept: 2007-07-13
Big Trees
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Thanks Publius.
So, the Fed actually does "vaporize" the money once they have received it in exchange for selling their assets, right? In other words, the Fed is the one organization that does not keep "cash" on its books, only other assets. They create the cash they need to buy assets, and when they receive cash in exchange for selling assets, that cash goes poof.
So here's the question: what if the Fed actually wanted to increase the money supply in unbalanced fashion? Could they not sell assets at less than book value, and simply allow the loss to turn up as a permanent increase in the money supply, instead of issuing a negative liability to Treasury?
Or are they forbidden by law from doing this?
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And it won't make one bit of difference if I answer right or wrong; when you're rich, they think you really know. --Fiddler on the Roof
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Donethat
Posts: 771
Incept: 2009-04-22
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Sondergaard, nothing about vaporizing Federal Reserve Notes, the FRB has the usual accounting system, debits, credits, blahblahblah. Before 2008, the banks kept their almost zero fractional reserve bank reserve deposits of about 80 Billion at the FRB, and the FRB sent out about a Trillion of FRB Notes, what you think of as cash,money,George Washingtons, etc, in return the FRB was given Treasury securities, typically before 2008, T-Bills.
When a bank makes a loan, they print money out of thin air, the bank credit is the loan to be paid back, the bank debit is money the bank loaned out.
The FRB debits the FRB Note, and credits its new Treasury, err MBS.
What besides only 80 or 100 Billion in new FRB Notes a year, is that the banks are now lending their money to the FRB instead of each other, and instead of buying Treasuries. Now the FRB is using the bank printed money out of thin air to buy Treasuries and MBS. In FY2012 the FRB did not net buy new debt, someone else was floating Uncle Sam.
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