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| The Stark Budget Reality, In Pictures in forum [Market-Ticker]
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Marvinmartian
Posts: 759
Incept: 2011-03-16
Pasadena, CA
Banned
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You have a typo. Should be: debt@time2 = debt@time1 across the entire economy.
Major fault: you do not distinguish between debt for consumption vs debt for production.
Example of productive debt: Sasol is building a NG-to-diesel plant in Louisiana. Its placed there in part to co-locate with the Ford shale-gas field in Texas. I claim this is debt for production.
I know its hard to make this distinction. I would also say that a lot of the Govt debt (at all levels) is for consumption. But, a lot is for production: e.g. interstates, Intra-costal waterway, flood control. Maybe the court systems.
It is my belief that a large fraction of the Federal debt is for consumption. But when the split between consumption/production is quantified you have a much stronger argument.
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Genesis
Posts: 131439
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Wrong.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Twainfan
Posts: 151
Incept: 2010-12-01
Minnesota
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Debt is debt, what does it matter how the debt is incurred?
Excellent ticker Karl. Hope it gets read far and wide. Those numbers are scary to think about.
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Mrbill
Posts: 7904
Incept: 2008-10-19
North Carolina
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Debt for consumption or production can only be determined after the fact if production actually increases.
You can't eat intentions :)
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Genesis
Posts: 131439
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Debt for production is accretive to future GDP, in which case the ratio is not damaged (it is actually improved.) It is therefore unnecessary to separate it out.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Ricka01
Posts: 1250
Incept: 2009-03-05
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Another way to put it: debt will only help improve future GDP only if it is invested profitably.
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Crzymorse
Posts: 1228
Incept: 2010-06-25
Maryland
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Yep, Great Ticker. The question is why this has been happening and I think its pretty obvious. We are propping asset values through debt. Society has just hit the inflection point where it can't afford the interest payments to support the underlying asset values. Its one of the problems with wealth accumulation with a relatively stable money supply. The more wealth that accumulates into fewer hands (as a natural course of competition) the greater the price of those assets has to drop to be affordable when sold as a function of the math. Every market should be self correcting unless you distort the free market process and debt issuance is the primary method to distort the market.
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Grashopa
Posts: 2692
Incept: 2009-02-03
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Quote: Its one of the problems with wealth accumulation with a relatively stable money supply
You wrote that wrong. This is the problem with an exponentially increasing money supply. People have 'accumulated wealth' through the theft of increasing the money supply. When the debt can't be paid off we get the bust and decrease the money supply which is how you maintain a long term stable money supply. We are currently deciding who takes the loss for the bad debt and those with money are using their political power to make sure money ends up in the hands of a few. Given the 'natural course of competition' all of the current crop of rich people have already lost all their money and more.
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Theft is evil
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Grashopa
Posts: 2692
Incept: 2009-02-03
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We're simply talking about the money supply. We supposedly have 'real GDP' which is adjusted for inflation, but they don't use the actual change in the money supply in order to intentionally understate it.
What I don't understand about this is why economists have such a difficult time with the money supply. It is not hard to count up every time a dollar is created via credit or literal printing of cash. I mean how was all this covered up and obfuscated when it is so simple.
An increase in the money supply is theft.
Having the government steal money and give it to people does not grow the economy. How could it? If it could why don't we just increase the velocity of theft and have everyone get in on it. (Which we did with housing loans and racially biased lending for fairness)
If you are going to allow bankers to print up money then you have to have booms and busts aka the business cycle. You cannot exponentially increase the money supply forever, debt must be paid down or defaulted to balance the emission so we maintain a level money supply or you are simply committing theft against those who do not borrow money.
And if you go back and simply back the money supply out of GDP the whole of economics is a laughingstock. OMG the wonderful growth of Japan, China and the Asian tigers! How did they grow GDP so quickly!
Japan doubled their money supply every few years when everyone was agog over their wonderful growth before it bit them. China doubled their money supply from 2009 to 2011 yet their currency strengthened. Why would you allow someone to double their money supply without requiring them to pay you twice as much?
My mind boggles at the sheer idiocy behind all of this. And how simple the lie is that got us into this mess.
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Theft is evil
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Gamma
Posts: 5730
Incept: 2008-01-20
Northern CA
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Excellent ticker, Karl, definitely a quantum leap in depth of explanation. Quote: Debt for production is accretive to future GDP, in which case the ratio is not damaged (it is actually improved.) It is therefore unnecessary to separate it out. Wait, what about Solyndra? (and all her multi-BK sisters) All that debt was, until one fateful day...future directed. Then it/they turned into a black hole(s) of sub-productive debt.
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This stuff we're going through, this is nothing compared to the Middle Ages. They told me if I voted for John McCain, an idiot would be a heartbeat away from the presidency. Sure enough...
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Genesis
Posts: 131439
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Well, the assumption of course is that the debt taken for production ACTUALLY PRODUCES. If it does not then it's exactly as destructive as debt-for-consumption is.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Crzymorse
Posts: 1228
Incept: 2010-06-25
Maryland
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Debasement is paying 100k for a college education to become a janitor or waitress.
Grashopa, the concept is intentionally made complicated.
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Gamma
Posts: 5730
Incept: 2008-01-20
Northern CA
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Well, then Solyndra was a towering ****load of creative destruction all in one incredibly fancy bldg in Fremont, CA.
But did not EMC just buy that bldg? From the "your loss is my Gain dep't?"
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This stuff we're going through, this is nothing compared to the Middle Ages. They told me if I voted for John McCain, an idiot would be a heartbeat away from the presidency. Sure enough...
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Riceday
Posts: 503
Incept: 2009-10-30
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I guess the good news is when you remove the false demand created by debt growth, the cost of these programs decreases as well.
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Crzymorse
Posts: 1228
Incept: 2010-06-25
Maryland
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According to Krugman we need some additional debt for the make believe alien invasion. He doesn't want to take a pay cut.
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Bertdilbert
Posts: 2694
Incept: 2008-12-22
CA
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Thus we conclude our weekend edition of National Calculator on Overdrive with our host Karl Denninger. Karl has proven from 37 angles that the US is broke dick busted and a correction of the ingrained frauds will invariably knock us back to the Stonehenge era.
This program is endorsed by the American Society of Prepers. Our Society has deemed December to be bulk ammo month. Bulk ammo makes great stocking stuffers and shows your family that you really care for their future.
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Dear Euroland: Relax, Germany has a plan for your money!
Political Capital Defined: We are out of money but will tax our citizens for whatever it takes to "SAVE" the Euro.
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Luckypenny
Posts: 33
Incept: 2007-11-29
Michigan
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Karl,
The more you dig into these Debt / GDP numbers, the worse things look.
Now, how scary is it if we look at mfg GDP of 1980 vs mfg GDP now ? Would love to see you do some work in that direction if you can. Seems like we'd have an even larger distortion than in your last chart above re: Defense / Med spending, etc., ratio to GDP then and now.
Seems like a lot of current debt is dispensed through the economy and supports Star Bucks / Service / Retail / Financial economy, which then creates jobs in like service businesses. But, this does NOTHING to increase standards of living as we aren't MAKING STUFF.
I about flipped when I saw comment on the previous thread referring to "not enough jobs in America" (USA). Have these people not driven through crumbling cities over crumbling infrastructure ?? Can they not make the connection between crumbling USA and paying people not to work ?? !!
I know they'll respond saying "with what money?". These people do not understand markets, finding a job, making a job, doing something constructive, trading your service fixing someone's house for another that grows food, builds a car, etc.; then becoming a consumer / tax PAYER.
We've so conditioned America away from a market based economy and so 'bastardized' the market, I see a lot of pain to get back where we need to be to again advance standards of living.
Can we imagine where our standard of living would be if all the people who've been paid not to work, through all the years of welfare, etc., actually had produced things that were dispersed into the economy at the marketable price ?? Then if all those same had been tax payers vs takers of production and taxes ??
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Fraudster
Posts: 4181
Incept: 2011-05-10
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 Manufacturing is barely 10% of GDP. To bring it back inline with the 1980s, standard year, will require manufacturing to double, or GDP to decline by 50%. The tertiary sectors of the economy (services) MUST be properly supported by robust primary (agricultural) and secondary (industry) sectors. Having a solely tertiary based economy only works if you are a small country. For a large country you have to have balance. The US economy is completely out of balance in this regard. Karl's post is completely correct in this regard. Some time back, I posted a thread showing the increase in "FIRE", government and healthcare in the economy. I figured that in order to bring us back to the pre-debt bubble era level of credit (1980-1981) we would have to sustain a 50% or GREATER decrease in GDP. Good to see that I am not far off the mark.
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"Let China sleep, for when she wakes, she will shake the world." - Napoleon Bonaparte
"Circulation ceases first at the outer edges [Europe and Japan]. It will take a while yet for the decay to reach the heart [America]." - Foundation & Empire by Isaac Asimov
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Gamma
Posts: 5730
Incept: 2008-01-20
Northern CA
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Good post, Fraudster.
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This stuff we're going through, this is nothing compared to the Middle Ages. They told me if I voted for John McCain, an idiot would be a heartbeat away from the presidency. Sure enough...
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Noodleman
Posts: 2505
Incept: 2008-11-01
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I heard on the radio tonight that Obama and John's Boner went behind closed doors in the White House today for secret 'discussions'. No doubt an agreement will be reached to avert the 'fiscal cliff'. The oligarchs and the leeches will remain on the edge while the taxpayers get shoved off.
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"It may be true that you can't fool all the people all the time, but you can fool enough of them to rule a large country." William James Durant, 5 Nov 1885 - 7 Nov 1981
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Tad82
Posts: 15
Incept: 2010-06-10
klp
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It seems to me that economic collapse is already inevitable at this point and centralbankers+politicians know it very well too. The only choice is immediately to do the right(?) thing and have quick and sudden deflationary collapse willingly or max out the credit and debt and have hyperinflationary collapse later. Knowing that, it looks like there is silent decision, taken by centralbankers+politicians, to have it later. Is it bad decision? If there's need to collapse anyway, maybe it is better to max out ponzi scheme completely, run up public debt to japan level and moreso and then, maybe after 10-15 years from now, hyperinflate and start from the scratch? As history shows as long as states have manufacturing base or commodities, there were no immediate Mad Max scenarios, although suckage was enormous - Germany 1923, Soviet Union 1991. Is USA capable to pull it off in the future?
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Swampwoman
Posts: 387
Incept: 2009-12-06
NE Florida
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What do y'all mean by manufacturing? A grandfather in overalls in middle Georgia with a home built CNC machine in his shop can do more in a day with more accuracy than a workshop with 20 employees with hand tools. (We met him this weekend.)
CNC machines are quietly turning garages and workshops into manufacturing facilities.
At the CNC workshops that we occasionally find time to attend here in the USA (usually grumbling about the inconvience), I find it interesting that there are a lot of Europeans and South Americans that have paid a lot in hotel expenses and airfare in order to attend and see some of the ideas/projects that other folks have done.
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“A body of men holding themselves accountable to nobody ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine
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Snooze
Posts: 2849
Incept: 2007-07-09
florida
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fraudster wrote Quote: Manufacturing is barely 10% of GDP. To bring it back inline with the 1980s, standard year, will require manufacturing to double, or GDP to decline by 50%. The tertiary sectors of the economy (services) MUST be properly supported by robust primary (agricultural) and secondary (industry) sectors. Having a solely tertiary based economy only works if you are a small country. For a large country you have to have balance. The US economy is completely out of balance in this regard.
Perfectly said.....this is the fundamental underlying truth of any economy. The next layer is how you price those fundamentla units of production in order to maintain enough earned income to fund the consumption cycle of the production.
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Wealth is found in the warmth of the sun, in the coolness of moist soil, in the taste of fresh air, and in the pulse of your heart. Plant a seed and harvest your riches.
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Swampwoman
Posts: 387
Incept: 2009-12-06
NE Florida
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Now that I've let my enthusiasm for CNC machines run away with me, let me quickly add that I, too, have the uneasy feeling that we (countries worldwide) are teetering on the verge of a financial collapse, depression, and Gawd knows what else. We (my family and community) don't trust the (Federal) government to look out after our best interests at all; in fact, we regard them as the enemy that are hell bent on destroying our way of life.
Hope we're wrong.
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“A body of men holding themselves accountable to nobody ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine
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