History Rhymes: Remember 2008
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2012-11-27 18:43
by Karl Denninger
in Investing
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History Rhymes: Remember 2008
 

The incessant pumping by CNBC claiming "Rise Above" as a mantra along with other foolishness reminds me of what happened in 2008, and prompts me to issue a stern caution to anyone in the markets -- it can happen again.

Let's remember 2008, shall we?

The original TARP vote failed and the DOW plunged ~770 points.  That much "everyone" knows.

What is not talked about is that just a couple of days later it was passed, as Congress "interpreted" the collapse in the market as a demand to pass the bill, helped along by Hank Paulson, CNBC and everyone else in the "punditry."  The Senate passed the bill on October 1st overnight, with the House following on the 3rd.

But the market did not want TARP passed.  It wanted an actual solution to the problem, and TARP was not that solution -- it was a SCAM.

When TARP passed the DOW initiated a 3,000 point collapse over a bit more than a week's time.

The market, in fact, was not done going down until the spring of 2009, when balance sheet fraud via mark-to-fantasy was officially made legal through the bludgeoning FASB took in a Congressional hearing room.

The issue today is that the actual problem is a roughly 8% intentional overstatement of economic demand in the form of GDP financed with government deficit spending.  A "half-ass solution" that makes a $100 billion annual dent in a $1,200 billion deficit will probably be looked at exactly as was TARP by the markets -- that is, it will not be greeted with a big rally, but rather with a collapse as the market will (correctly) read this move by Congress as an unsuccessful can-kick and not a solution!

The government has backed itself into a corner over the last four years.  The time available to actually resolve the deficit spending problems along with forcing the insolvent into the open and reorganizing them has been squandered.

Now the market is once again stomping its feet.  But unlike the spring of 2009 there is no fraud game that can be played this time around.  Deficit spending and false economic demand is the problem and the only solution is to take it on.  The bad news is that where we had to take a roughly 10% adjustment in the amount of federal spending in 2000, and 20% in 2008, it is now approximately 40%. 

There is nobody in Washington seriously talking about even 1/4 of that amount in spending reductions -- even going off the "fiscal cliff" full-bore would only impose about 1/2 of the necessary correction between spending cuts and tax increases.

And let's not forget that the sequester and tax increases, half of what would be required to simply stop the deficit spending this next year (not doing anything about the debt or acceleration in medical spending over time), is being called "Armageddon" by virtually everyone.

I expect the market will give the politicians a couple of weeks -- maybe -- before it starts to demand an actual answer.  And, as in 2008, I also expect that what Congress will cough up will not be an answer, but rather, as it was in 2008, another attempt to run a scam and will be far less than the sequester and tax increases would be.

We shall soon see if the market again pukes up 3,000 DOW points in response.

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User Info History Rhymes: Remember 2008 in forum [Market-Ticker]
Duc888
Posts: 7368
Incept: 2008-11-06
Gold
CT, the UNconstitution State
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...what's that saying? "We can do this the easy way or we can do this the hard way?"

The problem is that now there is no easy way. It would have stung like a sack full of white faced hornets back in 2008 but I'd bet by now we would have been well on the road to recovery. Iceland?

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...burp
Medicdan
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Scottsdale, AZ
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I'm ready. Bring it bitches. I just hope I get paid. ;)

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Arizona & desert gardening
http://azediblegarden.com/
Jubber
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UK
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thought you expecting a nuts rally earlier in ticks if it went +1408???? Is that scenarios still on the table as well?

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“The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of other people’s money.” Thatcher
Frat
Posts: 1935
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After how much the "market" made during the last BIG scam, you sure it's going to **** itself? I mean, I'd LOVE to see Zara's rally monkey dead, swinging by its puny monkey balls, but it hasn't acted in a rational manner in 3+ years, right? The only thing I'm continually impressed with is how creative these ****ers have been at can-kicking.

I'd LOVE for me to be wrong here and you right Gen; I've just been disappointed too many times over the past 4 years.

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We're ****ed. Where's Henry Bowman when you need him?
Trades50
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Land of Tax and Spend
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"can-kick"

That's what they will do.

And all the cries about the harm to the economy if there are spending cuts.

Last week there some guest on CNBC that was pushing to raise the debt and delaying spending cuts.

The rating agencies have no problem raising the debt levels.

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When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty. - Thomas Jefferson
Tinman
Posts: 211
Incept: 2008-02-16

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Here ya go Frat...

Honestly, I think they will just fraud even bigger. They always do. Maybe this is where they nationalize the 401Ks. That might kick it a couple years.

Inline
Howie
Posts: 4848
Incept: 2007-11-02
Gold A True American Patriot!
Wilmington, DE
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Even if they fix the problem the market will tank over 40% cut in spending and the resulting drop in GDP. Whatever is done now, the market will tank imo.

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"Banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a moneyed aristocracy that has set the government at defiance. The issuing power (of money) should be taken away from the banks and restored to the people to whom it properly belongs." - Thomas Jefferson
Oulous
Posts: 30
Incept: 2010-12-12

United States
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I don't think a collapse will be so easy to predict, if it happens at all. At this point it seems they have no choice but to let the air out slowly which means it will be very hard to build wealth. All of us have already been taxed on our assets and savings with the inflationary moves of the fed but I have doubts about seeing a mother lode kaboom. Long slow leaky death of assets.

Certainly every bubble blown by fed chairsatans and their ilk has had its bust but the timing on the bust here is going to be tricky. The can might look like it is no longer kickable because the geriatric diabetic swollen leg of the fed cant lift an inch but I wouldn't underestimate their ability to viagratize their little toe and get one more limp flick on the can.
Arw
Posts: 218
Incept: 2009-03-02

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Hmphhhh....they've outspent our future wealth. Now, they'll slowly tap our accumulated wealth. The death of the USA will be excruciatingly slow.
Jake3463
Posts: 769
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Allentown
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Rumors of Jamie Dimon for Treasury Secretary floating around....What happened the last time a former Too Big to Fail CEO was sitting in Treasury.....
Crzymorse
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Maryland
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Nationalize 401ks, not sure wall street would like that. You take all the risk and they get all the returns. 401k is just a cookie jar but the cookies aren't really for you.

Japan started this somewhere around 20 years ago. The global central banks are now in a coordinated conga line taking turns kicking the can.
Madman
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ct,USA
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I don`t see it, in my opinion anything the government does that allows them to CLAIM we have or will avoid the fiscal cliff will generate a substantial rally in the markets, it wont matter if it`s real or a scam or just plain bull**** as long as the MSM backs them up on it.

The President and the House will be meeting tomorrow with the masters of the universe ( the banksters) to discuss our fate, the fiscal cliff will be avoided and the markets will rally........... this is`nt 2008.

this is just my opinion but i do not think i am wrong.


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Corporations have been enthroned, and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until the wealth is aggregated in the hands of a few, and the Republic is destroyed. -- Abraham Lincoln..

Johnny
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Wouldn't nationalising the 401ks cause a MASSIVE selloff in stocks??? So then what do they do?. Sell 25% at a time in favor of treasuries? What if you're in they last group to be converted? You're screwed!!!
Drkshapiro
Posts: 630
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Southern CA
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It can't be "like Japan" nor a slow demise because the world is different, with too many economies imploding, or seriously slowing down, simultaneously. We are used to the American century and so we expect it, in some sense, to continue, yet financially that is not possible.

Karl, I thought you'd like that piece you referenced earlier in the WSJ today on the true deficit because at least it was an unusually honest look at the size of the deficit, even if it wasn't explicit in what to do about it.

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Honesty may be the best policy, but it’s important to remember that apparently, by elimination, dishonesty is the second-best policy. --G Carlin
Jstanley01
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San Antonio, Texas
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At least TARP was on the table after Hanky (Treasury) and Benny (the Fed) threatened CONgress with tanks in the streets. Fast forward to today, after Benny Boy QEed at the yearly high, in response to the pumpers wee-weeing in their panties, and what's on CONgress's table now?

N-o-t-h-i-n-g.

America ate the bad sushi and now it's time to...

smiley

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You can't cheat an honest man. ~P.T. Barnum

Crzymorse
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Remember increasing taxes and reducing spending causes Greece to happen (at least according to the white house). That is why you are going to see taxes go up and spending go up. There is hope that the redistribution of wealth increases the velocity of money thereby amplifying the effect of money in the system which in turn will grow GDP, increase tax revenues and cut the debt:GDP ratio thereby solving the problem.

I'm just not sure we can outrun technology and the deflationary effect is has on the financial system. GDP growth may have stopped correlating with the standard of living. The country in reality is almost on a four day work week as it is.
Mikek31
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Well, look at what happened in Euroland with Greece just today. Of course we'll keep doing the same here. The real market (besides the HFT trader drones) consists of a bunch of longs who won't have any time to get out. When this thing snaps back, it's literally going to shock people, as in 9/11 shock. At this point, not even sure if it's worth prepping for; we're so far down an exponential curve that we're really in uncharted territory. Don't get me wrong: this has happened before throughout history, but not to this degree. Every ****ing government on the planet is united in this extend-and-pretend endeavor. It shall be quite an enlightening experience for the world, to say the least. Folks will have a chance to put their differences aside, and actually catch a glimpse of what's really happening behind the scenes.

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Everyone keeps looking at the system and saying "it's not working, it needs to be redesigned somehow." It's working exactly the way the people who own it intend it to work.-Sutluc

Mo
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Pa.
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Quote:
I'm just not sure we can outrun technology and the deflationary effect is has on the financial system. GDP growth may have stopped correlating with the standard of living. The country in reality is almost on a four day work week as it is.


It's much worse than a 4 day work week. If you subtracted all the make-work created by the government and the FIRE sectors, half the country would be totally idle.

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Welcome to Pottersville
Crzymorse
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Maryland
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Mo - They certainly don't extend the work week.

Wait until those 3D printers come down in price and become widespread. That will be the end of cheap asian toys from Hong Kong and Toys r US in one fell swoop.
Fraudster
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We shall see Mr. Denninger. We shall see. It may take another few years for this to play out. I am waiting for Europe, Japan, and the UK to fall first. Then the USA. China may fall, but it may just stumble and collect itself.

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"Let China sleep, for when she wakes, she will shake the world." - Napoleon Bonaparte

"Circulation ceases first at the outer edges [Europe and Japan]. It will take a while yet for the decay to reach the heart [America]." - Foundation & Empire by Isaac Asimov
Ben
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Incept: 2009-10-09
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The Distant, Glorious, Past
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"Obama To Bypass Congress To Ban Semiautomatic Firearms "

Yes. Sneak this item into a 3,000 page bill on updating PPACA and creating Single Payer.

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"Why are you going to learn French?"
"Because I'm going to France," says Joe.
"I'm from the future. You should go to China."
Eaglewwit
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SoCal
Banned
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I am with the others, history doesn't rhyme this time. This time it really is different. The markets have not been the same since 2009. Something fundamentally changed, whether it be direct government intervention or not, something is different this time.
Vitaeus
Posts: 53
Incept: 2010-10-05

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The something that changed is that the little old ladies and teh folks "playing the market" are out of the market there is nobody to be the greater fool except other institutions and the pension funds.
Mikek31
Posts: 4350
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Green
Chicago
Online
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Why should anyone "work" four days per week, anyway? I've read about the more primitive folks who still populate this earth sustaining themselves on only a few days' work. They've been described as some of the most laziest people on earth. So what? I work every damn day of the week; can't imagine a day where I didn't help someone or do something productive. My point is, this whole notion of "workweek" and "40 hours" is just plain nonsense. That's been created out of the ether for your enslavement. Enjoy.

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Everyone keeps looking at the system and saying "it's not working, it needs to be redesigned somehow." It's working exactly the way the people who own it intend it to work.-Sutluc
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