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Not that it makes sense, or will even work, but you can count on that happening.

Exactly...it won't work...there's no way the gov can collect 3x the maximum amount they've ever collected. They'll make the attempt I'm sure...and they'll be shocked when it doesn't work...then, to save their own skin...they'll simply blame all the selfish rich bastards in America that refused to "pay their fair share". That will of course, follow the path that I suspect...the hungry, etc won't attack the gov, they'll attack everybody that even looks like they have money because they obviously "didn't pay their fair share".

The unfunded liabilities make the fiscal cliff debate laughable. All of the proposed "solutions" don't solve anything; just different versions of another can kick. At this point, the debate is not about the outcome, but rather the timing.

Stupid question probably, but if Medicare were scaled back to cover just routine medical care and cut out all big stuff like cancer treatment, joint replacement, transplants, cataracts, etc., could it be saved? Then, would the elimination of those big ticket items from Medicare cause their price to go down? Would it eliminate many of the residencies in surgery, etc., forcing more medical students to go into the needed primary care fields?
Or is it too far gone even to provide the routine care the elderly need?

What I never understood was Sarah Palin talking about death panels like they were a bad thing.

The routine care, in a non-monopoly system, can be bought for cash. It's the other stuff that is both the problem and the reason Medicare exists.

Annnnnnnd .....

This is why I'd prefer a hard reset compared to this can-kicking death by a TRILLION cuts bull****. IF, and it's a big if, IF it happens within the next decade, my kids will have a chance at a hard-working, but decent life. **** all of us who were part of it, even if only by default of being born in the wrong set of decades.

EMP blast, anyone? Too harsh? How about a currency collapse? We're ****ed no matter what, so what's more likely to kill off a higher percentage of leech****s?

During the presidential campaign I always wished that Ryan would just break down and finally tell people that his plan wouldn't work, that it wasn't enough. That if you were under 55 you were screwed, you wouldn't get a voucher, you wouldn't get ****. That it is a simple matter of mathematics. That Obama, Biden and the rest of them can promise you whatever but that you can only squeeze so many skittles out of the unicorn. I would have loved it if he would have just lost it on Biden in the debate.

And the reason I say Ryan is that I think he's the only one that truly knew the depth of our financial problems of the four that stood on the stage. Isn't that damn sad that I, a reasonably smart man who's done a little homework, can look at the people wanting to lead our nation and figure out that one believes in unicorns, one is clueless, one thinks he can defy math, and the fourth is too ****ing scared to tell us the truth.

Briar wrote..

but if Medicare were scaled back to cover just routine medical care

Diabesity requires much treatment... neuropathy, cardiac, retina degeneration, kidney failure, etc. Its also largely a disease of lifestyle choices.

Until we get a population that holds "I am responsible for my health or lack thereof" as a core value, then we are doomed.

Uncle Sam is going to have conjure up a bigger and better unicorn ASAP. Healthcare is about 20% of GDP, and as Karl pointed out in many Tickers, US Healthcare has had a 9% annual rate of growth since the 1970's. This past year the rate of growth slowed down to 4-5% and my guess is next year it will come out around CPI. This will change the net present value of future liabilities to be more favorable to the taxpayer. However, this can be devastating to the economy over the next year or two.

The primary employer in just about every major and minor city in this country is a University Hospital System of some type. They don't just hire doctors and nurses, they also are a huge job source for the under educated in the inner cities. Every hospital almost without exception have built brand new wings, modernized capital equipment, hired staff and have a big advertising budget. Watch any local sports team or listen to the radio as healthcare is the majority of the ad spend. The expectation was that the healthcare sector would grow at 9% a year for the forseeable future and the system is leveraged up on that expectation of receiving $87 trillion in future spending. Thats means that the rate of growth just has to slow down to implode the system. Just like the housing market the poor and middle class people get in at the end (this time through Obamacare)right before the system crashes. The ramifications for employment would be dire as there are no low cost manufacturing jobs for these people to fall back on. Ben can print all the money he wants but if employment drops and claims keep rising then deflation is here and welcome to Japan. Everybody is looking for the next bubble and it is right in front of them.

Crzymorse wrote..

Ben can print all the money he wants but if employment drops and claims keep rising then deflation is here and welcome to Japan. Everybody is looking for the next bubble and it is right in front of them.

+10

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Diabesity requires much treatment... neuropathy, cardiac, retina degeneration, kidney failure, etc. Its also largely a disease of lifestyle choices.

Truer words were never spoken. I have an old friend in that condition: Multiple surgeries of various kinds, toes amputated, endless pain meds: All from having a dozen donuts and a 2-liter for breakfast over many years

We should let the Type 2 Diabetes crowd drift off into their good night. You make choices in life.

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We should let the Type 2 Diabetes crowd drift off into their good night. You make choices in life.

Add this to the mix................

http://dailycaller.com/2012/11/26/why-is....

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We should let the Type 2 Diabetes crowd drift off into their good night.

MedicDan,

My significant other is obese. She resists nagging but realizes she needs to lose weight. Consequences so far are join pain - knees and back.

I'm determined a way to intervene, but have not had an effective conversation yet. I'm unwilling to give up.

Any coaching would be appreciated.

Marvin;

I'm off 30 pounds so far on the South Beach Diet and loving it! When I started I set a goal of 100 pounds so, so far so good. My wife is only cooking South Beach friendly food at home and I'm eating smart when I eat lunch out.

What I like about this diet is that you don't give up all carbs, just the ones that are to easily digestible. The biggest things that had to go are white bread, potatoes, and sugary fruits such as pineapple.

There are plenty of good things to eat on this diet and, getting rid of the carbs really helped on the after lunch lethargy as well in my case the afternoon headaches. Also, I'm never hungry as the lack of easily digestible carbs avoids the post carb hunger pains.

I highly recommend this diet.

Flap

Not all Type II is from mismanagement. Granted, a lot of it is and people in general would be better off if they had to pay for their own consequences.

Marvin, have you seen Body for Life?
http://bodyforlife.com/
12 weeks, 20 minutes a day exercise, and you eat 6 times a day.

Also, look into the Gerson Diet. Proven to cure and or drastically change Type II diabetics.

But what is to stop Treasury from selling bonds to pay these accrued expenses? And of course, what is to stop Bernanke from buying all these bonds? Given the 50 week moving average on the 10Y treasury note, it is plain to see the market is screaming for exactly this.

We all know that if all those tens of trillions in liabilities were to be forced onto the US balance sheet, the 10Y rate would skyrocket. It would rubberband up to 10, 15, 20, maybe even 30%. And yet it doesnt happen. Interest rates are held low solely on the basis of a lie.

Solely on the basis of a lie. These are trillions of dollars here, with the national debt being a wholly fabricated meaningless value of roughly $16 trillion. It's a proven fact that this number is wholly fabricated and comepletely meaningless. But the market trades where it does regardless. What changes this dynamic? Nothing short of a law requiring all these unfunded liabilities to be placed where they belong on the balance sheet.

So my question for Karl is: if the entire political spectrum can effortlessly conspire to hide/ignore a gaping fabricated $50+ trillion hole in the balance sheet, what cant they do? If it logically follows that they just made these numbers up, then doesnt it logically follow that they can make up a number twice as big? Or ten times as big?? I think this is their conduit for all the balance sheet games they want. This is precisely WHY health care expenses are rising so rapidly, because they are tied to this black hole of balance sheet gaming.

Marvin, I have a relative like that. 81 years old, in good health but 45 lbs overweight and has trouble with his knees because of it. Will he even consider losing weight ? Not a chance in hell - by God he's earned the right to eat whatever he wants, you know. He gets very offended if anyone even suggests cutting out carbs, eating less, or anything of that nature. Now, this is not a man who wants to get knee replacements or a scooter either, he's not costing Medicare for any weight-related issues at this time, his heart/blood pressure are in great shape, yet he absolutely will not take the smallest step towards fixing what is a very solvable problem that WILL one day cause him a medical issue.

We've tried everything - his wife gets upset about it, but he just doesn't care. Until he does, there's no changing his mindset any other way that we've found.

I think I could solve the problems if someone would make me dictator. Without a strong leader who can get us moving forward to solve these problems we're doomed. And I doubt a strong leader could sell it to the FSA. Bring on the reset.

The problem is that routine medical care is unaffordable right now. People would really fight the elimination of Medicare because of this, but maybe if they phased it in by eliminating the big ticket items so that people know Grandma can still go to the doctor to keep her BP under control and to get antibiotics when she gets a minor infection, etc., they might be more willing to give up the big stuff for the elderly. It makes no sense to give 70+ year olds new joints and new hearts and kidneys, but it does make sense to provide them with the routine in-office care they need. It might be a first step that could eventually lead to that anti-monopoly system that would eventually make it possible for Grandma to be able to afford the routine care on a cash basis.

marvinmartian sez >Diabesity requires much treatment... neuropathy, cardiac, retina degeneration, kidney failure, etc. Its also largely a disease of lifestyle choices. Until we get a population that holds "I am responsible for my health or lack thereof" as a core value, then we are doomed.<


The (British) National Health System is already feeling the pain of those who don't make the effort to stay healthy:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/andrew....

We're starting to see where the limits are... Go ahead and search for the Liverpool Care Pathway, and compare and contrast this with Sarah Palin's Death Panels and the Independent Payment Advisory Board.

KILL EM ALL!

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You're not going to get Medicare, unless (1) you're getting it now and (2) you're reasonably close to death.

So much for any "noble" cause or self-sacrifice. What we have here is a diseased, ravenous beast and instead of culling it from the herd to save the majority the powers that be continue the scam to further spread the contagion to collapse the entire colony.

Every creature in the herd will eventually be sacrificed. After all - it's only "fair" (puke). The only way to even remotely survive is to ISOLATE yourself from the herd.

IMO, the most likely path forward is to force all American doctors to accept single payer (and offer recent grads student loan payment incentives), put all non-rich and non-connected Americans on the government HMO (ie, pay doctors per patient instead of per procedure), and then blame the evil and greedy doctors when their patients die while waiting for treatment.

I'm not saying this is the best option, but I think it is the path they will choose. Force the doctors to do the rationing by financial means.

And of course they'll have death panels. They just won't be called that.