Long-Term Unemployment Entitlement: KILL IT
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2012-11-26 08:11
by Karl Denninger
in Employment
Ignore this thread
Long-Term Unemployment Entitlement: KILL IT
 

It's time to cut the crap on this so-called "help" and call it what it is: Welfare, then take it out back and shoot it.

About 2.1 million Americans receive payments through federally backed emergency unemployment programs, which Congress adopted starting in 2008 as a temporary supplement to state-level programs funded primarily with taxes on employers, which generally offer six months of benefits. That number has tumbled from more than 3.5 million at the start of the year and a peak of more than six million in early 2010, reflecting not just the gradual improvement of the job market but also new limits that have pushed hundreds of thousands of workers off the rolls before they could find jobs.

These programs are simple welfare, nothing more or less.

As of last week's report "EUC 2008", which is the program in question, had 2.156 million "beneficiaries."  To put this in context "regular" state unemployment had 2.956 million people receiving benefits as of November 3rd.

"Regular" unemployment (26 weeks) is an insurance program.  You, the employee, pay into it with a piece of every paycheck.  It is prohibited by law for your employer to itemize this as a deduction from your paycheck, but it is a fact that it comes out of your offered wage in each and every case.  In this regard it is a forced insurance program (gee, where do you think the Government got the idea that forcing people to buy insurance -- like health insurance -- was a good idea?) but the fact remains that "regular" 26-week unemployment compensation is something you paid into, although as an employee it is an insurance program you cannot opt out of.

EUC is a welfare program.  It is entirely unfunded and you paid nothing for it.  It was and is the clear intent of government to blur the line between the two, making you believe you were and are entitled to the latter benefit because "it's something you earned" when in point of fact nothing of the sort ever occurred.

The problem is that not only does this form of welfare distort the job market, as it encourages people to "hold out" for a job they want rather than taking whatever they can get (or starting their own business, even if it is nothing more than doing odd jobs for money from people.) 

It also distorts the picture that people have regarding work .vs. welfare, a hand out .vs. a hand up.

It is my considered opinion that unemployment insurance is something that you should have the right to either buy or not as an individual employee and your employer should have nothing to do with it.  The current system is rife with fraud; in Illinois, for example, it is virtually impossible to prevent someone from getting unemployment even if they are fired for cause.  I had multiple cases when I ran MCSNet where I terminated someone for a blatantly "for-cause" reason (e.g. not showing up for work on a repeated and notorious basis) and they would file for unemployment anyway.  We would protest and lose and the person who got canned would collect despite being outrageously ineligible.

This sort of abuse hurt everyone who legitimately wanted to work at the shop, since their wage offer was originally reduced by the amount that I would have to fork over for unemployment "insurance."  The fact that any random employee could (and some did) claim this benefit illegitimately and got away with it meant that everyone in the place got screwed.  Oh sure, the amount of the screwing for each employee was relatively small, but that's not the point -- if you steal a dollar or $10,000 from someone the only thing we're arguing about is the amount of damage, not whether the act was proper.

As a nation we need to fix these problems.  The best way to solve it in this case is to scrap the "unemployment" system entirely, and make unemployment a insurance program that employees can buy on their own initiative.  That in turn would make such a benefit entirely portable and entirely at the employee's discretion; in some cases people would choose not to buy it at all (e.g. a teen taking a summer job or a second income in a household that is not necessary but enhances lifestyle) where others would want to buy it (e.g. a head-of-household.)  This would also allow private companies to price the insurance for the risk on an individual basis and they'd have a strong incentive to police fraud and claims for "benefits" where the person in question was fired for cause.

Let the hate mail aimed at me for the termerity to suggest that people should work for what they get, and that the scam level in our system be reduced, no matter how slightly, begin.

smiley

Discussion below (registration required to post)
 

Main Navigation
Full-Text Search & Archives
Archive Access
Get Adobe Flash player





Blogtalk 3:30 CT Mondays
Items To Look At


Discuss The Capital Markets along with daily technical analysis with our Gold Donor program.

Where We Are, Where We're Heading (2013) - The annual 2013 Ticker

Links and Blogroll
Our policy on reciprocal links: Send us an email with your information and why you think your blog or news site would make a good addition - in most cases reciprocal link requests will be granted.
Seeking Alpha Certified
Legal Disclaimer

The content on this site is provided without any warranty, express or implied. All opinions expressed on this site are those of the author and may contain errors or omissions.

NO MATERIAL HERE CONSTITUTES "INVESTMENT ADVICE" NOR IS IT A RECOMMENDATION TO BUY OR SELL ANY FINANCIAL INSTRUMENT, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO STOCKS, OPTIONS, BONDS OR FUTURES.

The author may have a position in any company or security mentioned herein. Actions you undertake as a consequence of any analysis, opinion or advertisement on this site are your sole responsibility.

Looking for "The Best of Market Ticker"? Check out
Ticker Classics.

Visit the forum to discuss this and other investing-related topics; see the FAQ on the forum for information about Gold Donor status including access to our technical analysis video server.

Market charts, when present, used with permission of TD Ameritrade/ThinkOrSwim Inc. Neither TD Ameritrade or ThinkOrSwim have reviewed, approved or disapproved any content herein.

Market Ticker content may be reproduced or excerpted online provided full attribution is given and the original article source is linked to. Please contact Karl Denninger for reprint permission in other media.

Submissions may be sent "over the transom" to The Editor at any time. To be considered for publication your submission must include full and correct contact information and be related to an economic or political matter of the day. All submissions become the property of The Market Ticker.

Leads on stories of current economic and political interest are always welcome. Our fax tip line is 850-897-9364; please include contact information with your transmission.

 
Comments.......
User: Not logged on
Login Register Top Blog Top Blog Topics FAQ
Showing Page 1 of 2  First12Last
User Info Long-Term Unemployment Entitlement: KILL IT in forum [Market-Ticker]
Cobra2411
Posts: 10338
Incept: 2007-06-26
Gold A True American Patriot!
Philly P.a.
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Also, one could buy extra insurance to cover them for longer periods.

----------
To err is human. To really **** things up takes government.
Mo
Posts: 12158
Incept: 2007-06-26
Silver
Pa.
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Americans believe that if something is 'needed' it should be provided by government. They proved this in the last election. And they also proved they are willing to take ALL of your money to pay for it.

So....elections have consequences.

----------
Welcome to Pottersville
Swingtrader
Posts: 9108
Incept: 2007-08-12
Green
United Oligarchic Goldman Sachs States of America
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
As an employer in NC, and SC, the unemployment commissions are clearly heavily biased towards the employee.

Although the employee cannot draw unemployment if fired for "just cause" the reality is that the commissions will never find that there is "just cause" unless they were an ax murderer.

My most recent example, I furnished examples of violations of state regulations, documentation proving forged records and more. I was not allowed to go to a hearing, provide legal representation for the employer, etc. only to send in documentation.

The employee was able to draw benefits after a 12 week penalty period.

I have owned small businesses for over forty years. In previous decades, I would give a potential employee a shot to prove their worth and many years would have between a salary and a half put towards "growing" employees.

Not any more. Not only that, I have severely limited the pool of applicants, and no longer add an employee for seasonal increases in demand, we just suffer thru the season. Keeps labor cost down, too.

**** you, unemployment commissions of NC, and SC.

----------
Swing said "Well, it is collapsing as we watch.This is what it looks like." Australian federal judge Jayne Jagot, doing what US judges need to do!

Aztrader
Posts: 6648
Incept: 2007-09-10
Green
Scottsdale, AZ
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
I had dinner with a friend this weekend from Illinois and he told me that a friend has gotten benefits for the past 4 years. Is this possible?

This program readily discriminates against the self-employed because they don't qualify. How many businesses in the past 4 years have closed due to the crappy economy? Discrimination is totally alright to this administration in order to keep the status quo. They hand out welfare, SSDI and all kinds of free **** to satisfy the unemployed, underemployed and leech****s. They pass a so called healthcare bill and hand out hundreds of waivers to their friends. This is the end result of a President that got where he is due to Affirmative action. Every one of these programs are BS and need to be shut down.
I am seriously investigating how to make my business a "minority business". They are put at the top of any govt order that needs they specific product.
The 2008 election was a test to see if the powers had the marketing power to elect a black man with a name like Barrack "hussain" Obama. They succeeded. The 2012 election was a "stupidity" test to see if after 4 years and 5 trillion poured down the drain, if the same country would reelect the same clown. They succeeded. Now they know that the country is sufficiently "dumbed down" to take over. When all it takes is getting some free **** from your govt to hand over our your vote, then we are done.
I doubt if any of the "free ****" is on the table for Obama. Wait until his inaugaration. Then the real plans will come to light...........
Goforbroke
Posts: 5334
Incept: 2007-11-30
Gold A True American Patriot!
Just call me 'Comrade'
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/....
Quote:
“If Congress doesn’t renew federal benefits, the impact in Ohio will be immediate and negative,” said Zach Schiller, research director for Policy Matters Ohio, a left-leaning policy-research group based in Cleveland. “Not only will the unemployed suffer, but the state economy will take a hit as well.”

A recent Policy Matters report found that fewer than a quarter of jobless workers in Ohio receive state unemployment compensation, with the federal support boosting that to 39 percent.

Because unemployed workers are likely to spend their benefits on food, rent and other expenses, the aid also helps the local economy, advocates note. The average benefit is $300 a week.

Sen. Sherrod Brown is among those pushing for an extension of emergency benefits to be included in any agreement Congress reaches to avoid the “fiscal cliff” and avert $600 billion in automatic tax increases and spending cuts. A one-year extension could cost $30 billion.

“Ohio’s economy is moving in the right direction, thanks in large part to the auto rescue and the developing shale industry. That being said, there are still too many Ohioans looking for work and too many families unsure of whether they’ll be able to pay the mortgage or put dinner on the table,” said Brown’s spokeswoman, Lauren Kulik

“Unemployment insurance protects Ohioans and their families when their jobs are eliminated. Sen. Brown supports an extension of unemployment insurance and also recognizes that most Americans would rather be collecting a paycheck — which is why he’s fighting to ensure that any ‘fiscal cliff’ agreement includes a strong jobs component.”

----------
We have met the enemy and it is us. -- Pogo
Frat
Posts: 1935
Incept: 2009-07-15
Silver
NKY
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
When I lost my job I had for 7.5 years in May 2009, it took me 11 months to find one making even 2/3's what I was - and I took it just to NOT be on unemployment any more. Luckily the wife picked up extra shifts at the hospital (RN), but it was a trying time for the pride AND the marriage. I didn't LIKE being a leech**** (and yes, I did feel like one), but had I taken a job for what was offered, the wife STILL would've had to work those shifts, and child care would've been an issue.

At the same time? We - no, *I* would've done so without that extra 5 months. So no, I'm not arguing against this Ticker; I'm saying it's accurate as hell. I also agree with employee-paid (directly) unemployment insurance. I don't job-hop; in fact, I probably put up with too much bull**** rather than switch. It's time to end the leech****ery - for everyone.

----------
We're ****ed. Where's Henry Bowman when you need him?
Avianphlu
Posts: 3920
Incept: 2008-12-03
Gold A True American Patriot!
Ulster NY
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
we have an acquaintance that has been getting benefits for over 10 years...rolls eyes
Cobra2411
Posts: 10338
Incept: 2007-06-26
Gold A True American Patriot!
Philly P.a.
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
I've got a friend that got the normal 26 weeks, then the 99 weeks. DID NOTHING to find work. When the 99 weeks ran out he bitched on FB about how there was no warning the cheese was going to end and how he had bills to pay...

Got a job within 2 weeks. Making less, but more than welfare, er, unemployment was paying.

I'm with Karl 100% on this. Let it be an optional insurance that people can pay into. Pick your unemployment time and amount of coverage. 25% of pay, 50% of pay, 100% of pay, 26 weeks, 13 weeks, 104 weeks, coverage against being fired, etc. The amount of coverage vs your likelihood of getting laid off will dictate your rates. If paid by pre-tax dollars then benefits are taxed, if paid by post tax dollars benefits are not taxed.

There's details to work out but I'm happier with that system then the current one. The biggest problem will be people who don't buy it, spend all their money and don't save and get laid off. They'll whine and cry and the socialists will beat their drums about how something must be done for these poor unfortunate people.

----------
To err is human. To really **** things up takes government.
Heisenberg
Posts: 90
Incept: 2012-09-21

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Agree 100% KD. But we all know this problem isn't going away. Some people just don't want to work. And they seem to be the most fertile. And now they don't have to. The advocate of the stupid and lazy just got another 4 years.
Degaston
Posts: 2264
Incept: 2007-07-27
Green
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Rather than say "get rid of the program" we should substitute it (and many other programs) with a "3 hots and a cot" program.

----------
3/17/2013: Bullish on nothing - 100 percent in cash.
Flappingeagle
Posts: 1226
Incept: 2011-04-14

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
My father-in-law told me yesterday that back during the depression his grandfather disowned one of his daughters and her husband. They were not allowed to come visit for almost 10 years. What sin did they commit? They went on "relief" during the depression after they lost thier jobs. Grandfather's mind set was that there were no freeloaders in his family. If you needed something you went to work and got it for yourself.

My Dad was the same way.

Flap

----------
Here are my predictions for everyone to see:
S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu.
"You can't build a house of cards on a shaking table." - Tony Johns
The January 2015 AMZN put at $130 (cost $4.25) will be a winner.
Aquapura
Posts: 129
Incept: 2012-04-19

Land of 10,000 taxes
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
I think largely the problem is that in the current economy the people getting laid off are not able to find work that comes even close to matching their previous wage. Even though that new job might pay better than UI it's a tough pill to swallow taking a perceived paycut. I'm sure there are many that are holding out for a better job.

Also, in some fields (mine included) nobody is finding work in 26 weeks or less. Unfortunately the longer you're out of the workforce the harder it is to get back in.

Sure, there's also the leeches but I refuse to believe that's everyone. I don't disagree with killing the 99 weeks. I would glady buy my own UI and think it should be sold like disability insurance.
Magus
Posts: 1966
Incept: 2008-05-04
Gold
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Swingtrader - NC & SC are two of the better states for UE benefits, believe it or not.

----------
"There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as a result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved."

-~~Ludwig V
Drkshapiro
Posts: 630
Incept: 2012-09-12
Gold
Southern CA
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
This ticker was perfectly reasonable AND well written, who could object? I am teaching at a state College in your former state today KD....they just served awful pizza for lunch. The Dean says they have to use only the cafeteria, all unionized, and because they make pizza they are not permitted to order out pizza! At least it should be edible. Theatre of the absurd.

----------
Honesty may be the best policy, but it’s important to remember that apparently, by elimination, dishonesty is the second-best policy. --G Carlin
Jackl
Posts: 2234
Incept: 2008-01-17

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Problem is two fold.

Common labor wages are down.(So is purchasing power)
Unemployment funded by funny money is up.

I know several people who have basically said to me "Why the **** am I working for 1-3% raises when inflation steals it back anyway? Might as well not work at all"

We're not just rewarding people to not work, we're also making it unrewarding to work. ZIRP and leech industries are destroying the lower and middle class.
Swingtrader
Posts: 9108
Incept: 2007-08-12
Green
United Oligarchic Goldman Sachs States of America
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Magus wrote..
Swingtrader - NC & SC are two of the better states for UE benefits, believe it or not
If you are speaking it is better for the benefit of the employee, I believe it in a heartbeat.

If you are saying that NC and SC are two of the better states to be an employer to fire someone for cause and the employee benefit to the detriment of the employers rates - then we are truly in the theater of the absurd.

Dunno if you are speaking rate charged employers - and/or the amount of benefit the employee may draw, etc.

Kinda hard for me to be sure what is meant by "better states for UE benefits"

----------
Swing said "Well, it is collapsing as we watch.This is what it looks like." Australian federal judge Jayne Jagot, doing what US judges need to do!
Genesis
Posts: 130691
Incept: 2007-06-26
Admin A True American Patriot!
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Illinois is "fire at will" because (1) whoever you fire WILL get unemployment irrespective of WHY they were let go and (2) you will cap off so fast that you may as well fire like crazy, since once you cap off there's no higher assessment that comes from doing so.

I find it hard to believe that there's a worse state for employERS than Ill-Noise, but I suppose there might be.

----------
I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Tristan
Posts: 572
Incept: 2009-04-08
Green
Spirit of '76
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Yep, working just "isn't worth it" for a lot of people. The choice is sit at home and do whatever and get $300/wk, or go to work for 40 hours and take home $400/wk before tax.

Personally, I lost my job and started my own business after a few months (though supposedly illegal to use unemployment insurance to do so...?), because this allows me to work as little as possible and thus be taxed as little as possible. And, well, a few hundred a week doesn't quite do it for me just yet. But I honestly don't look down on the leeches, so long as they know and accept that they are not entitled to anything and when it runs out they'd better be ready (which probably eliminates most leeches...).
Tristan
Posts: 572
Incept: 2009-04-08
Green
Spirit of '76
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
btw, my wife was telling me about one girl who quit where she works because she was making too much and it was having a negative effect on her welfare payments...

And then when trying to fill the void with a new hire, some three out of five people who scheduled interviews for the job just plain didn't show up!

Not sure how indicative that is of the job market as a whole, but these are likely the typical affairs of the lower paying end of it.
Genesis
Posts: 130691
Incept: 2007-06-26
Admin A True American Patriot!
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Yep.

----------
I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Jackl
Posts: 2234
Incept: 2008-01-17

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Quote:
And then when trying to fill the void with a new hire, some three out of five people who scheduled interviews for the job just plain didn't show up!

Not sure how indicative that is of the job market as a whole, but these are likely the typical affairs of the lower paying end


Pretty much.

Quote:
Illinois is "fire at will" because (1) whoever you fire WILL get unemployment irrespective of WHY they were let go


Same BS here. I deal with UE claims at my work. Everyone gets unemployment unless they were practically caught embezzling. I can tell the UE department anything and everything. Doesn't matter.

They're supposed to investigate and decide whether or not you get unemployment. Simple fact is they don't care and they rubber stamp practically every application that comes across the desk.

Magus
Posts: 1966
Incept: 2008-05-04
Gold
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Swing..I'm saying for the employer perspective. We frequently win claims in nc and sc..midwest, ne, west coast is way worse and the payroll tax associated with it as well

----------
"There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as a result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved."

-~~Ludwig V

Sdbn
Posts: 387
Incept: 2009-09-13
Gold
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
We are in NC. We fired an employee for cause. Noted verbal warning, 1st written warning and fired on next offense (all the bolts are necessary on the brake repair job, idiot!). He tried to file unemployment and they called to verify details. My husband read the lady the file and asked if she wanted him to fax the details. She said, No and thank you for your time. Never heard anything about it again.

We have an employee whose wife was laid off about 2 months ago. The manager of the local grocery store told my husband they were looking for pt and ft produce employees pay would start at $9 per hour plus bennies. So we called her to let her know. She said "But I'm making $427 a week on unemployment." So she sits on her fat butt and collects while the local grocery can't find employees. We constantly ask ourselves exactly why we started our business and are working our butts off. Life would be easier if we had never even seen the red pill.
Jackl
Posts: 2234
Incept: 2008-01-17

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Quote:
So she sits on her fat butt and collects while the local grocery can't find employee


Purchasing power and real capital has degraded too much.

The government can print money much easier than you can work for a minimum wage job.

Debt has to be pulled out of the system. Prices have to come down. Working has to be rewarding again. I've had several friends who are basically plan-less. They're hurting bad. They're still only getting paid 10-14 dollars an hour. But costs have gone up so much it feels like they've taken a pay cut.

I keep telling them to just wait for the deduction eliminations, and tax increases. It'll feel even better.(These people live off their tax returns)
Login Register Top Blog Top Blog Topics FAQ
Showing Page 1 of 2  First12Last