Heh Krugman: Meet The Wood Chipper!
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2012-11-20 09:32
by Karl Denninger
in Editorial
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Heh Krugman: Meet The Wood Chipper!
 

The resident Socialist at the NY Times is at it again...

Needless to say, it wasn’t really innocent. But the ’50s — the Twinkie Era — do offer lessons that remain relevant in the 21st century. Above all, the success of the postwar American economy demonstrates that, contrary to today’s conservative orthodoxy, you can have prosperity without demeaning workers and coddling the rich.       

Consider the question of tax rates on the wealthy. The modern American right, and much of the alleged center, is obsessed with the notion that low tax rates at the top are essential to growth. Remember that Erskine Bowles and Alan Simpson, charged with producing a plan to curb deficits, nonetheless somehow ended up listing “lower tax rates” as a “guiding principle.”

Oh really?

Exactly what percentage of the economy do you think redistribution should be?  Let's be real here: The US Economy is ~$15 trillion, but government spending at all levels is about $6.4 trillion, or about 43% of the whole.

Roughly $4 trillion of that, or more than 25% of the economy, is pure redistribution -- it is "spent" on Pensions, Health Care, Education and Welfare.  $900 billion, approximately all-in, is spent on various forms of "defense."

Now we can argue about exactly how much defense we need, and $900 billion sure sounds excessive to me. 

But perhaps you can explain to me why we should be redistributing education -- instead of expecting those who screw and make children by doing so to buck up and educate their kids.

After all, we do proceed from the assumption that parents love their children, right?  The left's argument isn't that a woman is simply a life-support system for a vagina, and a man is simply a means of producing sperm, right?

When it comes to Health Care, we do proceed from the assumption that people want to be healthy, right?  The left's argument isn't that nobody gives a good damn about whether they live a good, long, healthy and happy life or are confined to being poked, prodded and tubed with this and that by the medical industry, suffering on a daily basis until they finally expire, right?

As for Welfare, we do proceed from the assumption that people do want to get off their ass in the morning and go to work, not sit at home, do the aforementioned screwing, and add to it stuffing their face in the idiot box while stuffing their face with bags of potato chips and 12 packs of beer, right?

So when it comes to 91% tax rates, go ahead Paul.  Talk the government into it. 

You may think this will result in utopia but you'll be wrong (again.)

Indeed, let's look at your utopian 1955.  GDP was $426 billion.  Total Government spending at all levels was $110.7 billion, or 26% of the economy, and redistribution, defined as Pensions + Health Care + Education + Welfare, was $27.7 billion or about 6.5% of the economy.

(Federal spending was $73.4 billion, or 17% of the economy!  Oh to live that day once again!)

If I can have the 1955 percentage of redistribution, or about 1/4 of what it is now, I'll be happy to also have 91% marginal tax rates.

Of course I won't pay them because I'll stop working long before I reach that threshold -- and so will basically everyone else.

Somehow I suspect that what Paul ("I like to lie by omission") is arguing for, however, is that he can have both confiscatory taxes and increase the redistribution that government performs.

Unfortunately for Paul there's no evidence that this will actually come about; what will instead happen is that the amount of money paid to the government as a percentage of the economy will shrink dramatically, and with it so will the welfare state -- whether Krugman likes it or not.

With that in mind, go right ahead and bring it on. 

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User Info Heh Krugman: Meet The Wood Chipper! in forum [Market-Ticker]
Vitchilo
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And back then, a family could be living well with only one salary coming in.

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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H.L. Mencken
Jstanley01
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You mean to tell me that a balance sheet has two sides to it? That's not fair!...

smiley

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Frat
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Well Vitch, houses were a lot smaller, people only had ONE car, and there were a lot less toys.

As for Krugman, **** YOU. Why don't all of you socialist cum-garglers give all of YOUR money to your beloved fedgov, and leave MY MONEY THE **** ALONE?!

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We're ****ed. Where's Henry Bowman when you need him?
Tz
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One more thing ignored is the loopholes. No one paid 91%. When you were that wealthy, between WW2 and 1986, you hired accountants, and targeted your investments so that you could depreciate, capitalize, or otherwise use the loopholes. Ferraris and Maseratis were "a business expense". Opulence was not taxed as long as it was a perk.

This was at all levels - "Health Insurance" and other benefits weren't taxed when paid by the employer, but would be if paid by the individual, and with the wage and price controls in WW2, they had to raise wages in some other way. We are at the endgame of that distortion.

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"I am become debt, destroyer of worlds"
Apotheoun
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krugman... what an ass. I wonder if MR Nobel is rolling in his grave because of him.

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"when despair is all you can see, the end is finally near."
"Because there is some good left in this world, AND ITS WORTH FIGHTING FOR!"
Mortgageguymn
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Obviously no one paid a 91% effective tax rate in the '50's - even the rich. Doofuses like Krugman seem to think that's some sort of acceptable mitigation of the high tax rate. The differential between the nominal rate and the effective rate (after deductions and tax bribes - aka credits) is precisely the PROBLEM. It's like the many people (perhaps the majority) who think that income tax rates DROP for millionaires and that that's why Romney or Buffett pay a 15% effective rate. If they want higher cap gains tax rates they should just argue for it straightforwardly rather dreaming up Buffett Rules or acting as though raising the nominal rate top federal rate to 40% or 50% or.... would change Romney's effective rate by one red cent (which it wouldn't ).

Going back to a 91% nominal rate and leaving deductions and credits in place would be like having a speed limit of 5 mph on the freeway, but exempting 95% of drivers from that limit.

At base, Krugman's problem is that he can't conceive that one's effective tax bite will change their motivation, incenting them or disincenting them from undertaking various economic behaviors. People like him simply don't believe that anyone will refrain from opening a business or working harder if they only get to keep 30% of the incremental income in net income. They figure that everyone will be happy with that 30%, that every rich person will continue to strive unabated no matter how small the increase in income - and that Krugman & co can skim whatever they want off of that person's efforts. To do otherwise would be to cut off one's nose to spite one's face, and no one would ever do THAT, right? (**** him)

The other unspoken premise for the Krugmans is that money - or the fruits of ones efforts - belong first to "society" and that the captains of government should rightly decide what residual portion will be allowed to filter through to the actual earners.

His whole philosophy probably stems from some deep-seated grievance, some bitter jealousy. And his supposition that no one changes their behavior based upon the impact of their tax bite probably is the result of his lifetime in academia where incomes are relatively equal and one is rewarded more by flattery. He is a despicable little prick, and it takes every ounce of discipline I have to avoid use of the word "ilk" when describing those of like mind.
Oldpool
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Be wary of what follows these social justice people. How many were murdered at the hands of Utopians bearing gifts? Notice there is no discuss page along with any of the idiotorial pages of the NYTimes.

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Liberty, Comrade!
Andysvw
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Is it time for us to pay his blog another visit?
Ricrain
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Krugman... ugh. Ivory tower dipsheet that never had a functional role in the real economy.

Is it just me, or does the term "Economic Justice" make you want to wretch a bile-laden load of hammers and sickles?
Crzymorse
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Maybe my math logic is incorrect but if the top 1% pay a 10-15% effective rate and the bottom 99% pay 20-30% effective rate wouldn't all the money eventually wind up in the 1% group just as a function of mathematics even assuming a return on saving that was equal between the groups.
Smacktle
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Adding Krugman to the, "Somebody Needs To Punch That Man In The Mouth Club".

If you see Bernanke or Krugman, please punch them in the mouth HAYMAKER style.

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The faults of the burglar are the qualities of the financier.
- George Bernard Shaw
Uwe
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Go ahead, Paul, make my day. I could use a reason to go hang out at the beach instead of working.

-Uwe-

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“Whenever the legislators endeavor to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people, who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience.” - John Locke
Mrbill
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Quote:
Maybe my math logic is incorrect but if the top 1% pay a 10-15% effective rate and the bottom 99% pay 20-30% effective rate wouldn't all the money eventually wind up in the 1% group just as a function of mathematics even assuming a return on saving that was equal between the groups.


Yes, you are incorrect.

Like Krugman, you only look at one side of the balance sheet.

Where does the money go?
Mortgageguymn
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Crzy,

You may be right, but it depends on their spending. Witness Mr. McAfee's blown fortune. If people are offended by a 15% effective tax rate (mostly because of capital gains tax rates), then they should advocate for higher capital gains rates, not for higher nominal individual rates, or higher corporate rates or a brand-new complicated & costly to enforce parallel tax system called the "Buffett Rule" (all for a lousy $4B/year). Not saying that you like the Buffett Rule, but some people must have been swayed by that BS.
Aztrader
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Notice how all the left wingers are coming out of the woodwork now. Their king was reelected and they feel vindicated. Now they can go out and******and pillage without the fear of an repercussions. The more aggressive they get, the better chance of major riots when their free **** train comes to a stop....
Mortgageguymn
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Smacktle,

I'd love to hear of a Dan Rather-like attack on Krugman, where a couple of crazed thugs beat hell out of him while screaming "What's the frequency, Kenneth?"
Jb350
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An extremely high marginal tax rate actually reduces revenue, because no one wants to take profits in the face of that much tax. All potential profits are rolled back into the business to avoid paying the tax. It is a very simple concept, yet somehow over the past 30 years, it has become some sort of occult knowledge. People's minds have been shattered to the point where they just believe the propaganda that says "low tax rates are good". They are not. Low tax rates encourage profit taking, which actually boosts revenue for the corrupt state. The Statists love this. The banksters and pigmen love this too. But for the good of the country, people need to wise up and understand how and why we are so much better off with a very high marginal tax rate. These pigmen own the media and they used that media to totally redefine our way of thinking about taxes. They made us rationalize a completely wrong way of thinking. It is a case study in propaganda that every single person needs to fully understand.

The simple truth is that government revenues will collapse with a 90% top tax rate. But that doesnt mean the economy collapses. It just means these psychopathic statists lose their mealticket. THAT is why they all try and sell low taxes across the spectrum. They are ALL militant Statists, they ALL benefit from the increased revenue, and they ALL want it to continue. They are the ONLY ones who benefit. Everyone else would benefit more from a smaller government, drowned in the proverbial bathtub by way of a high marginal tax rate. The private sector will get along just fine with high taxes. Businesses will invest in their employees and equipment, so as to avoid taking profits and paying the corrupt government. The money goes into wages and capital formation instead, both of which provide a large boost to GDP and further encourage real true economic growth. And with the corrupt state and all its minions choked off, the economy can be free to thrive.
Crzymorse
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MrBill,

Enlighten me, but I suspect it gets lend back to the bottom 99% until they can't afford the interest payments.

Best,
JM
Magus
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Quote:
Maybe my math logic is incorrect but if the top 1% pay a 10-15% effective rate and the bottom 99% pay 20-30% effective rate wouldn't all the money eventually wind up in the 1% group just as a function of mathematics even assuming a return on saving that was equal between the groups.


You are under the assumption that the money the top 1% get isn't spent (creates jobs) or invested (creates jobs)

FWIW - the bottom 99% pay no where close to 20-30%. The bottom 50% pay 0% and the rest I believe is around 8-10%. Marginal rates are around 25-30% for the rest of the top 50% but that is quite a bit different than effective rate.

"IRS data from 2010 shows someone making between $50,000 and $75,000 on average pays an effective rate of 7.8 percent"

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/....

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"There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as a result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved."

-~~Ludwig V

Crzymorse
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hey MortgageGuy,

I think a transparent flat tax of 15-20% across the board is fine. Caught in between a work email on the last post.
Mpilar
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Quote:
I think a transparent flat tax of 15-2 0% across the board is fine.

FIFY

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Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. H. L. Mencken
Frat
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Here's my novel taxation idea:

Whatever we implement, be it The Fair Tax, a flat tax, or continue the current screwed up system, I want WHERE the taxes go to be flipped. My STATE should receive the brunt of my tax dollars, NOT fedgov. I can pressure or discharge from their duties a STATE politician much more easily, and they'd have to LIVE with us and their screw-ups when they occur. My STATE officials should know what's better for me and my fellow members of the commonwealth (not technically State - ok) than some ******* beholden to DC first.

Thoughts?

Libertarian-wise, the smaller revenue should still be enough for a united defense, but obviously wouldn't likely be enough to play World Cop. Gee, this has more merit than I thought. Then we could also tell the EPA to go **** themselves and use KY's coal as WE see fit. Hmmm....

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We're ****ed. Where's Henry Bowman when you need him?
Cvdoc
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Real question for Paul Krugman and his ilk.


Let's suppose you're a brilliant cardiac surgeon, or gifted singer, or software wiz -- and you make $1 million for a month's work -- and everything above that is taxed at 90%.


Do you really think there's much reason to work more than one month a year -- you can "herd cattle in the evening" as Marx wrote. You certainly won't be alienated from your work. You will love that month. Or maybe it's 3 days a week.


Or maybe it is just owning and managing 3 McDonalds in solid locations instead of 30 -- some of which may hit and others may not.


The real question is whether Krugman and other "tax socialists" really believe that for the doctor, singer, or software designer to work another 11 months providing goods and services to others in the market is "exploitation" that should be discouraged -- in favor of more leisure.


If Springsteen gives 50 concerts a year instead of 10 -- and they all sell-out -- is that exploitation of the masses, just because it makes him rich(er)? What happens if the government takes 90% of his revenues from every concert after 10?


Yes -- from $250,000 to $1 million or so -- probably most people want the money at any cost -- but once you have that much -- as Barack Obama says -- don't you have enough money? Certainly you do if the USA is going to tax it at 90%. So, you could work for free for a non-profit, design model airplanes, run for office, etc.


I don't understand why anyone thinks someone is going to be "motivated" to take risks and create jobs or other economic value -- if they get it into their head that "they have enough money". As Danny Devito said to Gene Hackman in the movie Heist when Hackman said he wanted to quit robbing jewelry stores because he has "enough" money. --


Nobody has enough money. That's why they call it 'money'

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Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master.
Sallust
Grunwald
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Frat, isn't what you a proposing more in line with the original intent at the founding of the nation?

I know it's still not even remotely close, but a hell of a lot closer than what we have now.
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