I wonder how far off we are from Peter the Roman?

oh Karl, where do I start...

When I was in semenary for an order in Texas I learned a whole lot about Church booking finances. What you will find is that MOST books held by the Church are lies. The clergy use the books to keep finances above board while they embezzle money all over the world for varius sorts of things (and usually not sinister things either).

You see the Church is in bed with lots of different governments and individuals who are extremely shaddy so they can get funds and supplies around the world in areas that are "Hot Spots". Unfortunately that usually requires a bribe to very awful people who do crazy things for the ability to pass borders and not get looted. It also is to smuggle people in and out of countries.

How do I know this? well, when I was in semenary I noticed some very unusual things going on for our missions to China and Haiti and verious other areas of the world and so I started to snoop. I and a few friends worked in the administration buildings and long story short we were able to find the real books. I started to whistle blow and then when the order found out I was taken in the back and told "the facts of life" if you will. I learned a lot.

Bottomline is whenever it comes to finances with the Church there is "Fraud" everywhere because governments would sieze assets all over the place if they knew where half of the money and supplies goes. Most of the activities are illegal in most areas of the world, however the Church has a mission to run and finances are a very touchy issue and should be kept extremely confidential.

With all that being said, are there real scandles and bad things done, absolutely. One of the problems the Church has is that since accounting fraud is a normal and expected business due to said things above, the Church officials have a hard time knowing and identifying where real abuse is actually taking place. Also it is always difficult to deal with said clergy and laity because usually they know about crucial information on these issues that they basically blackmail them, so what is usually done, is the person will be pushed off into a different area of the order or different office of the country. Ever notice there are a lot of awful and shaddy Bishops and Cardinals in Rome who have no authority? Its because they cannot get rid of them so the upper offices of the Church put said people in places where they can do the least amount of damage. This is a sad fact, but if transactions were expossed entire missions could be compromised and that means people die, or worse.

I hope this was educational, I am sorry its so vague, but I think you get the point.

The wife dragged me to church last Sunday. It happened to be Catholic. I noticed now how they pass the collection basket around twice now. Once after the sermon and another time after the eucharist is given out toward the end of mass. When I was an altar boy back in the day they only passed the basket around once. This change too must have been a directive straight from the Vatican, especially after countless millions were spend defending their child diddlers.

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This is a sad fact, but if transactions were expossed entire missions could be compromised and that means people die, or worse.

Like who? Who would die?

Are you trying to make some kind of "end justifies the means" argument?

"The wife dragged me to church last Sunday. It happened to be Catholic. I noticed now how they pass the collection basket around twice now. Once after the sermon and another time after the eucharist is given out toward the end of mass. When I was an altar boy back in the day they only passed the basket around once. This change too must have been a directive straight from the Vatican, especially after countless millions were spend defending their child diddlers. "




Usually the second collection is for the poor or some other special collection. The first is for the Church you are at.

"Are you trying to make some kind of "end justifies the means" argument?"

no, there is no justification here, some laws are not sinfull to violate. Hiding money has always been a necessary thing. Perfect example was when the Church smuggled money out of Germany during WWII.

Also for, "who would die" usually a big part of smuggling people and supplies is having the desire for locations to be kept secret. If there is a mission taking care of people in an African nation that is openly slaughtering Christians due to Muslim dictators and so forth, then if the location is expossed the military of that nation will go in and exterminate... also in China if you are a seminarian and are in communion with Rome, you have to be a part of the underground church otherwise you will be jailed indefinately. If those seminarians are not smuggled out that will happen (or killed). If the Chinese gov't gets a hold of those records you bet they will take action against EVERYONE involved.

Yeah, well, The Church hides child molesters in a Bascilica in Rome so they cannot be tried in an American court for their crimes too...

My faith became divorced from my wallet quite some time ago.

"Yeah, well, The Church hides child molesters in a Bascilica in Rome so they cannot be tried in an American court for their crimes too...

My faith became divorced from my wallet quite some time ago."


and I as well, the only places I donate to now are places where I know it is only going to the poor. I do not donate to any diocese because of what they did with the molestation scandles. I understand some may have been necessary, but most were not. At the semenary I went to they had a problem with a pedefile priest who knew nothing important and they covered it up and sent him to a different church. It truly is discusting.

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Also for, "who would die" usually a big part of smuggling people and supplies is having the desire for locations to be kept secret. If there is a mission taking care of people in an African nation that is openly slaughtering Christians due to Muslim dictators and so forth, then if the location is expossed the military of that nation will go in and exterminate... also in China if you are a seminarian and are in communion with Rome, you have to be a part of the underground church otherwise you will be jailed indefinately. If those seminarians are not smuggled out that will happen (or killed). If the Chinese gov't gets a hold of those records you bet they will take action against EVERYONE involved.

Haha, ok, got it. So my local church collects $25000 from it's parishoners on a Sunday, but only puts $20000 on their "official" books because if they don't, whole Christian villages and Chinese seminarians will be tortured and killed. Thanks for that clarification. I lol'd.

nvrmind

"Usually the second collection is for the poor or some other special collection. The first is for the Church you are at"

And who exactly audits the distribution of funds?

The second collection is PROBABLY reasonably-clean.

The first one is, by design, not. The typical split is thirds -- 1/3rd goes to the local church where you are sitting, 1/3rd to the Diocese where the church is, and the last third to Rome.

The local third is probably accurately accounted for as typically the local church will present an annual set of financials in the bulletin once a year and usually a parishoner who happens to be a CPA or similar will be the one who is doing the actual bookkeeping. He's PROBABLY not corrupt (although you never know!)

The other two thirds?

While the very existence of any and all religions fills me with confusion and rage (I was never exposed to such baffling lies as a child, thank god), it is only fair to assume that the Catholic church, an organization created and staffed by humans, at some point became exactly what every other institution becomes. That is, 100% corrupt and ruled by truly evil people. So, no surprises here. The specifics that tumble out are always interesting, however.

I might have to order Archangels this afternoon. The lady has a penchant for words. And, of course, she simply loves to flame the asses of the high and mighty. While nursing one's antipathy is unsatisfying, it is simply impossible to not hope that the Carabinieri's investigation bears fruit and Gotti Tedeschi sings like Pavarotti.

Position: Recovering Catholic

From the Catechism (it is NOT unpardonable)

Suicide

2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.

2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

When the collection basket went by it seemed to be mostly cash and not very many checks. Perhaps the check writers submit their tithings via a separate mechanism. I don't know. But the Catholics seem to be doing pretty well for themselves. It was flush with cash. And it's not a particularly wealthy area. I've often wondered how the finances are managed within the church and how many subsidies, if any, come from Rome? Are there financial quotas in place for each church? When I was a kid the preist used to hammer on the flock about twice a year for more money. I mean a hard sell too. Does that still happen?

"Haha, ok, got it. So my local church collects $25000 from it's parishoners on a Sunday, but only puts $20000 on their "official" books because if they don't, whole Christian villages and Chinese seminarians will be tortured and killed. Thanks for that clarification. I lol'd."




You say that, but do you have any idea how many priest here in the US are actually illegal imagrants? You would be surprised how many priests are actually under fake records and names. When I was in semenary I knew of atleast 2, let alone who I did not know of. How many churches have foreign priests in the US, and you have actually never questioned their real name and their story?

In case you have not noticed there is a huge shortage of priests here in the US and many priests work multiple parishes. In lots of areas they pull priests from other countries to try and fill the gaps and I assure you many of them have been smuggled into this country using fake information and if there was any kind of close examination they would be exposed, and yes bad rulers hold crazy grudges, their families would be killed if it was found out who they really were.

Wow, is there ANY crime the Catholic church doesn't participate in?

Ap, it is spelled seminary, not semenary. How long were you in one? Apparently not long enough to know how its name was spelled.

Ck: I'm not sure that's relevant. You're getting a lot of good info out of Apotheoun about all the crimes the church commits.

"Ap, it is spelled seminary, not semenary. How long were you in one? Apparently not long enough to know how its name was spelled."

If you read my past posts through the history of all my posts you will find I have TERRIBLE spelling with everything, I do apologize.

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You're getting a lot of good info out of Apotheoun about all the crimes the church commits.

You're kidding, right? Like what?

Illegal immigrant pastors, money laundering. I mean, nothing "real", and nothing surprising, but I don't see why you want to shut down the conversation based on a spelling mistake.

When the church does shady things for the greater good, it should also assume responsibility for when that method of doing things is abused.

Most people who complain about such stuff, do not complain specifically on the not-so-legal deals, since in some cases, they may be necessary, but on the fact that even when such deals were an actual abuse, not for the greater good, but for someone's personal gain, and when the leaders of the church knew it, they did nothing and the person who did it was not punished, or was given some minimal punishment, far below what the deed deserves.

So, if the church does its business like that, it should not complain if people ask that such power should be taken away from the church.

If it cannot prevent abuse of such shady arrangements, it should not use them at all. Otherwise, it will soon stop being a church and will turn into mafia.

EDIT:
In fact, in some cases, such persons (although it was known to the leaders) remain in positions of power where they can influence others, and normal people sometimes seek them for spiritual guidance.
Once it's exposed to the public... no wonder the people are outraged and disgusted with not only that person but also with the entire organization that allowed it.
And some will (partially) lose faith in God. Of course, one who is strong in faith will probably understand the difference between persons currently in the position of a religious leader and the actual religious/philosophical truth; but if everyone was so strong, we wouldn't need much of a church, wouldn't we?
So, such abusers in a way close the door of the heavenly kingdom, if I may paraphrase Jesus, they neither go there themselves nor let others go there.