More Stupidity On Entitlements
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2012-09-09 08:50
by Karl Denninger
in Health Reform
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More Stupidity On Entitlements
 

Here come the campaign lies....

SEMINOLE, Fla.—Campaigning in a state that has long drawn retirees, President Barack Obama on Saturday promised to fight the privatization of Medicare and Social Security, the popular health and retirement programs for seniors.

In making the vow, Mr. Obama appeared to be implying that his Republican rival, Mitt Romney, supports Social Security privatization, which he doesn't. Mr. Romney's running mate, Rep. Paul Ryan, has been a leading proponent of privatization—that is, of allowing workers divert some Social Security tax payments into privately owned accounts.

Medicare has long been a major issue in the campaign, particularly since Mr. Romney picked Mr. Ryan, chairman of the House Budget Committee, to be his running mate. The two Republicans have proposed trying to slow the growth of Medicare spending by giving seniors a set amount of money, which Democrats call a voucher, to shop for insurance. Mr. Obama and other Democrats vow to fight that plan.

This will do exactly nothing.

Note that the cost of private health insurance has been rising faster than Medicare and Medicaid spending; that is, Medicare and (in particular) Medicaid effectively intentionally underpay providers compared to the private pay rate which then forces that price upward. 

This sort of discriminatory pricing -- where the price for a given good or service varies only depending on the means by which payment is made -- is flatly wrong and in many cases is illegal.  Robinson-Patman says:

It shall be unlawful for any person engaged in commerce, in the course of such commerce, either directly or indirectly, to discriminate in price between different purchasers of commodities of like grade and quality, where either or any of the purchases involved in such discrimination are in commerce, where such commodities are sold for use, consumption, or resale within the United States or any Territory thereof or the District of Columbia or any insular possession or other place under the jurisdiction of the United States, and where the effect of such discrimination may be substantially to lessen competition or tend to create a monopoly in any line of commerce, or to injure, destroy, or prevent competition with any person who either grants or knowingly receives the benefit of such discrimination, or with customers of either of them

The law goes on to delineate exceptions where actual cost differences exist between customers due to the location of delivery or quantity delivered, or where no anti-competitive effects exist.

Virtually by definition health care has constrained competition, particularly when the care provided occurs in a setting where your ability to effectively negotiate is compromised or entirely absent.  If you're having a heart attack there's no opportunity for you to negotiate in advance the type and cost of your treatment!

So how do health care companies -- insurance companies, doctors, hospitals and pharmaceutical companies get around this problem?  Good question.  One of the answers is that many health care organizations -- at least the non-profit ones -- are exempt from much of Robinson-Patman.  Another is that many of the constraints are imposed through other laws, such as those barring re-importation of drugs, making such legally equivalent to drug-running and thus a felony criminal offense.  Additional constraints come in the form of "CON" laws in a majority of states that force health facilities to obtain a license before opening, proving alleged "need" for the service(s) to be provided -- and the board that makes such a decision has majority representation by existing providers of these goods and services.

The very premise of "need" turns the reality of a free market on its ear; by requiring proof of need to add a facility one guarantees a high price since it is excess supply that lowers price through competitive forces.  That is, if the existing centers to perform CAT scans can perform 50 scans per day in a given area, and 50 scans are being demanded, there is no excess supply and no incentive to lower prices.  Should the capability to provide another 50 scans come online suddenly the existing providers have a pricing problem -- now someone is going to have an empty machine, and the entity that will wind up with the empty machine will (typically) be the one with the highest price for its use! These laws provide very effective rationing of supply -- and drive up prices.

Then there is the practice by various entities of billing out services at ridiculous prices that nobody can possibly pay, especially to uninsured patients, calling this "usual and customary."  When the patient fails to pay the facility then "writes off the bad debt" and takes that off its tax liability, claiming as an uncollected debt this is a "loss."  The problem with such a scheme is that had Medicare been the payer it would have paid 20% -- or less -- of the "invoiced" price, and all would have been considered "ok" in the world by the provider.

Further, technological advances should (and do, in virtually every other industry) lead to lower prices.  But this is not true when it comes to health care; there improved technology instead leads to insane increases in cost.

We will never solve the health care entitlement problem -- Medicare and Medicaid -- until and unless we attack the root causes of this mess, which are simply not found in those programs but rather in the distortions and intentional obstruction of market forces that are endemic through the health system.  It is these distortions that lead to insanities such as childbirth being ten times or more the price that simply taking the cost in 1963 and multiplying it by the consumer price index change from that time to the present would imply. 

Neither major political party, nor Gary Johnson, will take this issue on.  Instead all three issue polemics about "protecting Medicare", "vouchers" or "block grants", as if taking a $20 from one pocket and putting it into another will magically change the amount of money one has.

We the people must demand that our politicians cut the crap here and now on this issue, as there is simply no ability to contine to pay for these cost advances that are being shoved down our throats by these companies. 

Our nation's economic future depends on it.

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Crzymorse
Posts: 1183
Incept: 2010-06-25

Maryland
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Healthcare and education are the two sectors with the highest employment in our economy. These sectors have become the last refuge for middle class jobs in this country. One fueled by off balance sheet leverage (student loans) and the other by huge deficit spending (medicare).

The major problem is those jobs increasing support the retail, housing, entertainment, food and transportation jobs. Healthcare and education costs are rising faster than the growth (if any) of the economy. In essence, one person's student loan debt is now another persons down payment for a car loan or a house, which is somebodies elses auto manufacturing job, in which 10-15k a year is extracted to go to the healthcare industry (healthcare is the most expensive cost component in building a car).

To prop the economy we lowered interest rates, eliminated or reduced required down payments for houses, car and electronics,increased the cost of healthcare and education, and now will increasingly bankrupt any person regardless of their net worth that doesn't have health insurance should they become sick.



Debtpie
Posts: 534
Incept: 2009-12-17

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Quote:
and now will increasingly bankrupt any person regardless of their net worth that doesn't have health insurance should they become sick


The beast is hungry; get too close and you'll be devoured.

The good news is that major change is coming...not sure exactly what it will be, but the current system is coming up on the wall.

1990's: I knew people that were dead set, right-wing fanatical, against ClintonCare.

2009: They were also against ObamaCare, but less so because they knew the system was getting out of control; they just didn't think single payer was the answer.

2012: They want change; what's this "single payer" thing again?

I was at a school function and joined a conversation about health care/insurance costs...mind you, I live in right-wing (Bachmann for President signs in the yard) ville.

Short of it...guy is paying $600 a month for family insurance at work...wife needs operation...his share of the bill is $7,000!

Let's just say that opened a lot of eyes and shut a lot of mouths by scaring the hell out of these people...

They was no clamoring for ObamaCare...but I think they leaned a wee bit more towards "something else".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl says:
Quote:
This will do exactly nothing.


Why bother analyzing political speeches for their "solution' content? No politician is going to stand in front of a group of people and promise less freebees.

I'd like to hear more of your/Libertarian ideas along the lines of your big cut to health spending via ending the hospital monopolistic/illegal/immoral billing practices.

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A Leader, or an Opportunist? "A leader has the capacity of vision, the ability to see where things are headed before people in general see those things." Mitt Romney --- DebtPie's definition: a leader decides where "things" should head and "leads" us there.

Azusgm
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True life story for you. Happened yesterday.

Had a conversation with a person who works on the corporate level for a company that owns and runs multiple franchise businesses across this region. They employ several hundred persons. He told me that the company has looked at all its options under Obamacare. Their most viable choice would leave them with no healthcare and a shorter work week for most workers. Even at that, the company would just break even but not turn a profit. According to their analysis, it may be better to turn out the lights.

With the government's help one part of the service sector economy stands to kill other parts of the service sector economy.

Brilliant.


Vicious_cycle
Posts: 253
Incept: 2009-03-10
Gold
Chardon, OH
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My father often spoke of how it was just too coincidental that the rooms were constantly 100% utilized at the local hospital, that the various imaging machines were constantly at or near 100% utilization, ditto for the operating rooms and nearly every big ticket medical device in the building. There was always just enough demand, but not so much demand that people were dying on the sidewalk out front.

His point, of course, was that the doctors and staff are complicit in creating "demand" in order to maximize equipment utilization and therefore, profits.

I wonder if he was aware of of the CON requirements within the industry that limit competition and conspire to meet that presumed goal of full utilization.
Debtpie
Posts: 534
Incept: 2009-12-17

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Azusgm,

That's why health insurance should not come from your job. Employers should not be responsible for picking up their employees health care tab.

With the employer paying, the employee sees it as "free" or at least "affordable".

If everyone had to pay the full cost of their insurance out of their own pocket, they'd be marching in the streets for real change tomorrow.

Our current system is all about getting someone else to pick up your tab.

1. Have a State/Federal job: Your employer picks up 100% of the bill.

2. Have an upper level private sector job: Your employer picks up the bill.

3. Typical middle class job: You have a hefty monthly insurance payment and co-pays that can break you...not pleasant.

4. Self employed: You pick up 100% of the bill..Ouch!

5. Have a crappy job like working at Starbucks for $15k a year...the government picks up your bill via medicaid.

6. Unemployed: the government picks up the health tab, you get a SNAP card, super cheap Section 8 housing, etc.,...and you "supplement" your income working cash jobs, dealing drugs, or selling stolen good through eBay.

Let's see, 6 choices....hmmm...what's the problem with the economy again...no new jobs, record numbers not working (or not in the labor force) even though (around here anyway) there tons of "Now hiring" (for McJobs) sings?

If you're (we all are) looking for someone to pick up your health insurance tab...only a minority can be in club 1 or 2, club 3 jobs are hard to find, you certainly don't want to be in club #4, why work in club #5 when the government dole pays just as well, looks like your best option is #6.

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A Leader, or an Opportunist? "A leader has the capacity of vision, the ability to see where things are headed before people in general see those things." Mitt Romney --- DebtPie's definition: a leader decides where "things" should head and "leads" us there.

Debtpie
Posts: 534
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Quote:
His point, of course, was that the doctors and staff are complicit in creating "demand" in order to maximize equipment utilization and therefore, profits.


McMansion/Boat/BMW payments to make.

I remember when our kids were young and had ear infections...talk about running up the bill...for the first kid, I spent a fortune in various (non effective) treatments and my kid suffered for months. Finally we reached the point of ear tubes and the problem was solved.

For the second kid, we did one prescription...it failed...and we {politely) demanded a jump directly to ear tubes...problem solved...$1000's saved.

Talk to parents with kids with chronic ear infection problems...nearly all will tell you that tubes were the only true solution...I'm sure the doctors know this too...but they'd lose a lot of income if they permanently solved the problem on the first try...

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A Leader, or an Opportunist? "A leader has the capacity of vision, the ability to see where things are headed before people in general see those things." Mitt Romney --- DebtPie's definition: a leader decides where "things" should head and "leads" us there.

Bluebird
Posts: 1380
Incept: 2008-05-02
Silver
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Choice 7
Spouse and I were retired and are in early 60s. Former employers do not pay health insurance for retirees. We are too young for Medicare, but took early Social Security plus have small pensions.

We are paying health insurance out of our own pockets. It is high-deductible $6000 and prescriptions are not covered. Basically it is catastrophic coverage. For this, we pay appx $550 per month. Thankfully, we have no other debt, but the amount reminds of paying a house payment every month.

edit: We have lived in our house almost 30 years, which is why the house payment seems low.


Debtpie
Posts: 534
Incept: 2009-12-17

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Bluebird,

Get a quote from Coventry Insurance; they are very aggressive/competitive in the "catastrophic coverage" market.

They've been my insurer for several years; no complaints so far. My insurance agent routinely searches for better deals, but always informs me that Coventry is the best option (I check on my own...someone once said "Trust, but verify").

The last time she checked, Coventry was 50% less than Blue Cross and the BC deductible was higher!

Based upon her customers experience with Coventry, she says they're better than most when it comes to customer service and paying claims.

http://coventryhealthcare.com/contact-us....

PS> I had Assurant Health prior to Coventry...kept inching up the price...finally hit me with a 40% increase...they never paid a penny in claims for us in 5+ years!

I signed up with Coventry, contacted Assurant to cancel...and they offered to void the 40% increase if I would stay! WTF! Crooks!

So, it appears that if you "pay what they ask" they will never stop asking for more...getting greedier each time until they cross your line...at which point they're willing to back off to "keep you as a valued customer". FU.

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A Leader, or an Opportunist? "A leader has the capacity of vision, the ability to see where things are headed before people in general see those things." Mitt Romney --- DebtPie's definition: a leader decides where "things" should head and "leads" us there.

Blurtman
Posts: 563
Incept: 2009-01-24


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The seriously ill patients and their families are voting for these advanced medical therapies. They are not being jammed down their throats. What is needed is an honest discussion of how this is paid for, if it can be at all.

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I have a reading comprehension problem and the owner banned me for repeatedly displaying it after being warned.
Eaglewwit
Posts: 6054
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Bottom line is, this country has learned nothing from the "Great Recession". Politician are back at using the Guns, Gays, God, and entitlements to scare people. AND IT IS WORKING. America what a great country........it used to be.
Sunkeye
Posts: 190
Incept: 2010-12-14
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was gonna just cheer on kd for tilting at windmills - no sarc

but reading the comments their insights impressive too
i mean crazymorse's at the top captures the fustercluck in all
its glory - yes sarc

we are xxxking doomed
karl keeps wailing w/ the truth but the politics
of it all is such a charade ...
when the poop finally hits the props the stink
is gonna make a baby's messy diaper seem the sweetest perfume

thanks again kd and you guys
it's good to be in this boat
but the seas' gonna swamp us all i'm afraid

sorry 'bout the neg input mine ...
Flappingeagle
Posts: 1224
Incept: 2011-04-14

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Eaglewwit said
Quote:
Bottom line is, this country has learned nothing from the "Great Recession". Politician are back at using the Guns, Gays, God, and entitlements to scare people. AND IT IS WORKING. America what a great country........it used to be.


Eagle I've been saying that each election in this country is determined by G3A: God, Guns, Gays, and Abortion. After reading your post I'm going to change it to G3AE, God, Guns, Gays, Abortion, and Entitlements. Any issue that is emotional and which shuts of logical thought is a good one for the politicians.

Karl I personally am doing all I can to spread the word to both my liberal and conservative friends as to what has/is happening. So far I am not making much headway. :(

Although when my Republican friends bust on Obama for the spending and talk about following the constitution I do point out that all spending bills must originate in the House and that the Republicans control the house...

Flap

P.S. I'm not sure who I am going to vote for in November. As a Christian I can't vote for Beelzebub so I may write in Ron Paul just so that I can say I voted for him as president for the rest of my life.

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Here are my predictions for everyone to see:
S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu.
"You can't build a house of cards on a shaking table." - Tony Johns
The January 2015 AMZN put at $130 (cost $4.25) will be a winner.
Eaglewwit
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Flap, I consider abortion and god to be the same issue.
Vernonb
Posts: 396
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State College, PA
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Quote:
This sort of discriminatory pricing -- where the price for a given good or service varies only depending on the means by which payment is made -- is flatly wrong and in many cases is illegal. Robinson-Patman says:


Its not just healthcare, pharmaceuticals, and the like. This corruption and type of game is widespread. In the selling of scientific supplies and analytical equipment we have the sample problem/issues. Distributors and manufacturers all engage in the same illegal practices. They have created their own systems to skirt laws.

What happens is that there is an advertised and printed price. "PREFERRED CUSTOMERS" are then given a permanently discounted price for the purchase of a particular item - often more than 50% of the list price! I'm not talking about volume discounts here. Considering these distributorship are owned by near monopolies under a single umbrella company (as Thermo) it makes me nervous.

This means singular individuals that do not know what is happening get RAPED when purchasing such items.

To a smaller extent we see this in the grocery stores and gas stations in the USA. Those that will simply give away their personal information for a few cents
on a gallon of fuel. I get tired of people always asking me if I had an XXX card to get a discount at the register. I am like WTF this is nothing but another tracking system for my purchases. Its no ones business but mine!

In the end I find myself being a "cuss-two-more" not a customer!
-------------
Foreign pricing and Euro games.

Its slightly off topic but falls in the same vein.

Then USA manufacturers have to worry about distributorships - especially in Europe with the pricing games.

Before the Euro the European dealerships would sell the same product at markedly different pricing. Importation from one dealer to another European country was often "cheaper" than purchasing the same exact item (manufactured by the same company in the USA).

This led to conflicts between the European distributorships that demanded even more discounts from the USA manufacturer so that they could compete with the other European dealerships "stealing" the sales from their country. (Its a lot like the USA essentially paying for the costs of new drugs sold worldwide.)

Instead of fixing their protectionist tariffs, they expected the goods' manufacturers to eat the cost of their tariffs. We all know its the consumer that pays these costs in the end.

The Europeans would have a fit if "their" customers saw the prices on the USA website and ordered direct at a savings to eliminate middle men. In the end prices were pulled from the US websites and foreign orders were referred back to the European dealership for the country.

After the Euro similar issues still occurred - except this time the Europeans tried to price fix the goods across Europe to "enable fair competition"! "Huh, what, WTF?" Did it help? Of course it didn't. The same problems existed.

In the end you get tired if the Europeans complaining they can't compete because the pricing isn't low enough for 'them' to profit. The issue is the protectionist tariffs. If that is the case then perhaps they need a new business.






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"The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.”
-Alber Camus (1913-1960)
Debtpie
Posts: 534
Incept: 2009-12-17

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Quote:
What happens is that there is an advertised and printed price. "PREFERRED CUSTOMERS" are then given a permanently discounted price for the purchase of a particular item - often more than 50% of the list price!


I deal with this all the time with my businesses. I've found the easy/best way to get the discount price is to develop a good relationship with your sales rep.

One of my suppliers stopped selling an item I routinely buy in large quantities. I called another supplier that I use for other items to get a price on the item since they still carried it..my sales rep was on vacation; his replacement couldn't "give me a deal"...so I waited for my rep to come back...my price was half the price "everyone" pays.

This is nothing new; I've been self employed since the 90's and it's always been this way.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Quote:
they can't compete because the pricing isn't low enough for 'them' to profit


When is the price ever low enough? It never is for me...:o;

The truth is probably more that they only want to compete on price; which destroys their profit margin.

I compete on price and service; when you buy from me, you'll get a competitive price and exceptional service.

Problem or special need? You can call me directly.

How many businesses offer that? What's that worth to someone whose job is purchasing supplies for their company?

They will gladly pay slightly more if it guarantees no headaches.

..and the real beauty of offering great service is that these people communicate with other people in their profession and business comes to us via "word of mouth".

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A Leader, or an Opportunist? "A leader has the capacity of vision, the ability to see where things are headed before people in general see those things." Mitt Romney --- DebtPie's definition: a leader decides where "things" should head and "leads" us there.

Azusgm
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Well Flap, I wrote in Ron Paul last time and it is time to do it again.

That makes two of us who will vote for liberty and reason, against Obama, and against the sorry state of the Republican party process. We may cast the two most powerful votes in the country. Maybe we can help keep the conversation going.
Debtpie
Posts: 534
Incept: 2009-12-17

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Quote:
Well Flap, I wrote in Ron Paul last time and it is time to do it again.

That makes two of us who will vote for liberty and reason, against Obama, and against the sorry state of the Republican party process. We may cast the two most powerful votes in the country. Maybe we can help keep the conversation going.


You will cast 2 worthless votes; no one but you will know or care that Ron, Gary, or "write in" got .0025% instead of .0024%.

If you want real change in the future, run yourself or at least volunteer to help the next-gen Ron Paul or whomever you believe holds promise.

For now, I will vote Obama because of his proven reluctance to commit troops. That's real and it matters; everything else Mittens/Obama, not much difference.

I've had my fill of "American Exceptionalism" and "Preventing the spread of WMD's" (many of which we and our policies created)...and based upon past experience, Bo is my best bet.

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A Leader, or an Opportunist? "A leader has the capacity of vision, the ability to see where things are headed before people in general see those things." Mitt Romney --- DebtPie's definition: a leader decides where "things" should head and "leads" us there.
Mo
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Right, Debtpie.

Like O hasn't been creating an army of thugs right here in the USA.

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Welcome to Pottersville
Azusgm
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Air support over Libya doesn't count?

When did we leave Afghanistan?

Are we out of NATO? the UN?

Is it the Nobel Peace Prize that makes O a man of peace?

Quads4444
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There is no tax benefit to over billing. If you over bill a $2 service at $10 then you recognize $10 of income. If you only collect $2 then you can offset $8 of the $10 of revenue previously recognized. Result is you collect $2 and you pay tax on $2.
Vernonb
Posts: 396
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State College, PA
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Quote:
I deal with this all the time with my businesses. I've found the easy/best way to get the discount price is to develop a good relationship with your sales rep.


Debt, I am familiar with the practices and solutions

Too many people want to believe everything is equal (and we know its not). We provide all many services- especially technical- for free. We actually caught a competitor using our services for free after misrepresenting himself.

To me its still discriminatory practices that should not be occurring. Your rep has now favored you over the next person. What entitles you to lower pricing vs the next person of the same item if its not based of volume? Your relationship?- I think not. Your credit? - possibly.

What we have essentially is a legitimized "black market" sale of legal goods/services. Because of these practices my company has to hire 'buyers' to constantly negotiate with these jackals. Now prices must be raised to pay for the wages and healthcare of employees that do a good job but shouldn't have been needed in an honest market environment.

Its not like you and I could be bidding for the same limited item in such a case where free market pricing does abide for the highest bidder. Instead you have been given a preferred lower price. Imagine if you won the high bid, then were given a discount that made the price lower than my final bid?

Stock holders (and the justice department) should be out for blood if they discovered such practices.



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"The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.”
-Alber Camus (1913-1960)
Grunwald
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Debtpie said - "For now, I will vote Obama because of his proven reluctance to commit troops."

Remind me again which president sent in tens of thousands of troops in Afghanistan?
Whi
...and if you think that those uprisings in Libya, Egypt and Syria are organic and without support from "advisors" on the ground I have candy ****ting unicorn for sale.
Bertdilbert
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The Robinson-Patman Act is not a blanket prohibition of price differential. Outside of its conditions, pricing mechanisms can yield wildly different prices for different customers. Examining key clauses within these conditions uncovers areas where different prices for different customers are legal.

First, the Robinson-Patman Act covers commodities, in other words tangible items. Value transactions that substantially involve services or licenses to intellectual property such as software are not subject to the terms of the Robinson-Patman Act. As the US economy increasingly becomes a service economy rather than a manufacturing economy, the jurisdiction of the Robinson-Patman Act over transactions decreases.

Second, the Robinson-Patman Act requires that the differential pricing must be able to result in competitive injury. The “competitive injury” referred to is one that injures your customer’s ability to compete, not your competitor’s competitiveness. Evidence that breaks the causal connection between differential pricing and competitive injury will overcome the condition of competitive injury. If the same product is being sold to two different customers that are not in the same industry, or are at different levels in the distribution chain, or are in different geographies, courts will often conclude that competitive injury has not been caused.

Third, outside of these general clauses, the Robinson-Patman Act allows for a number of exceptions. The most commonly invoked exception is one that allows prices to vary in order to meet competition. The “meeting competition” exception allows for prices to vary in competitive bidding situations. A second permissible defense includes varying prices for “cost justification” reasons such as delivery schedules or distribution chain position. “Changed conditions”, the third permissible defense, allows for prices to vary due to changing marketability of perishable goods and seasonal items and also distress sales.

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So looks like it would not apply since services are exempt and it is limited harming a customer's ability to compete in the market place. There might be another law but this one is not it.

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Dear Euroland: Relax, Germany has a plan for your money!

Political Capital Defined: We are out of money but will tax our citizens for whatever it takes to "SAVE" the Euro.
Mannfm11
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Incept: 2009-02-28
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The Right to National Bankruptcy

http://mises.org/daily/6110/The-Right-to....

Karl keeps hitting on this subject. This Doctor agrees with him. THERE AIN'T NO SUCH THING AS A FREE LUNCH. Obama keeps talking about other peoples money like it belongs to the government. If someone on the street was talking about getting into your home and stealing your ****, if you had any sense, you would get a gun and shoot the bastard as soon as he walked in your door. Politicians talk about it like it belongs to them. The infrastructure of the country is going to fall apart if we stay on this path and then there will be real health problems.

Take a look at the tables in the article on the link above. America is adicted to the overuse of healthcare, especially for kids and old people. The typical teenager consumes medical care on par with people age 50 to 65. Does that make sense? We have been bull****ted.

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The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.---John Kenneth Galbraith
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