Is That A Sentinel -- Or A Siren?
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2012-08-16 09:04
by Karl Denninger
in Editorial
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Is That A Sentinel -- Or A Siren?
 

I've been studying the Sentinal Decision for about a week now, trying to find an analytical corner that wasn't immediately pounced on by the mainstream media and various bloggers.  In short this held:

A federal appeals court on Thursday upheld a ruling that puts Bank of New York Mellon ahead of former customers of Sentinel in the line of those seeking the return of money lost in the 2007 failure of the suburban Chicago-based futures broker.

The appeals court affirmed an earlier district court ruling that the bank had a "secured position" on a $312 million loan it gave to Sentinel, which turned out to have been secured by customer money.

The problem with this decision is rather simple -- it eviscerates the general principle in the law that one cannot grant a thing one does not have. 

This is why, if you buy a stolen car, you don't get to keep it when the theft is discovered.  You can't be prosecuted for unwittingly buying the car, but the seller has no title to the vehicle to convey, and therefore he conveyed nothing.  You thus have no claim to the property.

Back in 2009 you all sat for this very same sort of violation, because it didn't risk being your money.  I'm speaking of the GM and Chrysler bailouts in which senior bondholders, who had a contractual claim on the assets of the company and thus literally owned the property (as a secured interest) were boned for the benefit of the UAW -- that is, their property was stolen.

The courts allowed it.

Now it has happened here with Sentinel, but this is not news; it is merely continuation of what began, and what you, the people, allowed to occur without retribution or recompense.

This morning we find that it's likely that those who were involved in the theft of customer funds at MF Global, including Corzine himself, are likely to not face criminal charges.  And why not?  That's just an extension of the Sentinel decision.

The problem, of course, is that once you ignore property rights then you've ignored them.  It's the principle of the thing more than the details; whether you get personally boned with "this" particular violation isn't the question.  Rather, the question is this, for each and every one of you:

"What assurance do you have that any property of yours that is not in your personal, immediate and physical possession, is actually protected by the rule of law if someone attempts to steal it?"

The answer?  You have none.

Let that sink in folks, because it does not just apply to futures traders, to people daytrading stocks, or even to people with 401ks and IRAs.  It applies to each and every one of us with a bank account.

That's right folks -- it applies to anyone with any property held by any person other than you, in your personal control within reach of your fingers.  If it is stolen by a wealthy and powerful person they will be found to have conveyed it "within the law" and you will not get your property back.

The customers of MF Global keep being told this lie:

After 10 months of stitching together evidence on the firm’s demise, criminal investigators are concluding that chaos and porous risk controls at the firm, rather than fraud, allowed the money to disappear, according to people involved in the case.

Money doesn't disappear.  The investigators know where every single penny went.  They know precisely who has it.  And under long-standing and essentially inviolate legal principle, they also know damn well that whoever has it does not have title to it and cannot acquire title as the entity who granted possession (MF Global) didn't have title to those funds and thus could not convey what it did not have.

No matter; your money is gone.

Your money in any brokerage account can be just as easily gone.

Your money in a bank or credit union can be just as easily gone.  The FDIC, incidentally, has a tiny fraction of the total deposit base available; it cannot cover your deposits in any real failure of the system, as it doesn't have it (and neither does Treasury.)

Any property, in short, that you do not personally possess within reach of your fingers..... can be and will be, if a rich and politically powerful person steals it, gone.

One final question: Are you awake yet?

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User Info Is That A Sentinel -- Or A Siren? in forum [Market-Ticker]
Bagbalm
Posts: 4259
Incept: 2009-03-19
Green
Just North of Detroit
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This is why I never have more than $4k in the credit union and most of the time less than $2k. They can declare a bank holiday and there will never be that much to steal. I can even the score on $4k pretty easily, being a vindictive prick.
Atlasrocked
Posts: 364
Incept: 2009-03-23
Silver
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Once a group of actors gets away with a crime or a lie, they don't stop, the proceed to attempt more outlandish lies.

As long as the population receives more benefits and less taxes, they will accept more and more egregious lies.

The citizens are the problem here - only a small minority of US citizens seem to mind. My read is this is a side effect of the benefits-based gov't: Voters tilt for benefits voting and no longer care how good regulations work or how crime is enforced.

Comfortably numb.
Ben
Posts: 6205
Incept: 2009-10-09
Silver
The Distant, Glorious, Past
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So any oligargkic or elite bank that has lent any entity money, will go to the head of the line when TSHTF. Ahead of depositors, customers and others.

Only if you are an elite, of course.

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"Why are you going to learn French?"
"Because I'm going to France," says Joe.
"I'm from the future. You should go to China."

Grumpy_bear
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Green
More SRS please Mistress!
Online
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If the wealthy and powerful were going to do this across the nation to all 401(k) and IRA accounts, I would suspect the negative societal reaction would warrant the need for a great many bullets and meals ready to eat for said elites.

Oh.

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Denninger, Karl. Leverage: how cheap money will destroy the world. Hoboken: John Wiley & Sons, Inc., 2012. p. 126, par. 3.
Matt_bear
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Gold
a week early on spy puts
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so which is it then?

senior bondholders with GM had a legal contract, and they lost.

Bank of New York had a contract, illegally, but they won?



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In terms of real-world fundamentals, I expect that most of the people around me, whom I work with day to day, and whom I pass on the street ... will be dead within five years.
Genesis
Posts: 130747
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Admin A True American Patriot!
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Senior Bondholders were not "rich and powerful." The UAW was, BoNY was, Corzine was, etc.

In short, you are not, the person who steals your property probably is.

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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Otiswild
Posts: 5621
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This is likely dup, but still apropos:

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/08/15/n....

Quote:
A criminal investigation into the collapse of the brokerage firm MF Global and the disappearance of about $1 billion in customer money is now heading into its final stage without charges expected against any top executives.

After 10 months of stitching together evidence on the firm’s demise, criminal investigators are concluding that chaos and porous risk controls at the firm, rather than fraud, allowed the money to disappear, according to people involved in the case.
Fraudster
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smiley

This is EXACTLY what I have been saying too.

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"Let China sleep, for when she wakes, she will shake the world." - Napoleon Bonaparte

"Circulation ceases first at the outer edges [Europe and Japan]. It will take a while yet for the decay to reach the heart [America]." - Foundation & Empire by Isaac Asimov
Djloche
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Silver
In the Mountains
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Bank of sealy is looking mighty fine right now


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"If we wish to be free, we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to arms and to the God of Hosts is all that is left us! Gentlemen may cry, "Peace! Peace!" -- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle?"

Themortgagedude
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saint louis
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There will be blood. Who will be first? Jamie Dimon, some judge somewhere, etc. Those caught in the world's biggest Ponzi likely won't care where they extract justice.

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I'm already visualizing you with duct tape over your mouth.
Debtpie
Posts: 534
Incept: 2009-12-17

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WOW! Fantastic! Now I at least have a legal shot at keeping all of the stolen merchandise I (unwittingly) buy through eBay!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Fraudster: "Let China Sleep, For When She Wakes, She Will Shake the World" - Napoleon

LOL! Napoleon was a right...when China wakes, she's going to have a massive cluster fluck of a migraine headache brought on by the last decades Western style consumption binge of debt and financial/business fraud...and when she reaches for the 'hair of the dog' by (trying to) cash in all of those Western IOU's, she's going to puke her guts out all over the world.

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A Leader, or an Opportunist? "A leader has the capacity of vision, the ability to see where things are headed before people in general see those things." Mitt Romney --- DebtPie's definition: a leader decides where "things" should head and "leads" us there.

Jpg
Posts: 329
Incept: 2009-03-23

MI
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This probably won't be a surprise to many here, but Ann Barnhardt's been saying the same thing for a while.

She doesn't provide a means to link to specific posts, but if you haven't seen it, go to barnhardt.biz and scroll down to find the post labeled:

"RED ALERT: It's Open Season on All Customer Funds
Posted by Ann Barnhardt - August 10, AD 2012 3:33 PM MST"
Avianphlu
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Incept: 2008-12-03
Gold A True American Patriot!
Ulster NY
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I have to think that credit unions are many times more safe then the big FDIC institutions especially since BOA transferred trillions of liability to their FDIC side.

Are the CU's really as vulnerable despite this ruling? Thanks.
Shannonlk1
Posts: 111
Incept: 2008-12-02

Raleigh
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I'm guessing it is stuff like this that took place during the Great depression that made people just keep their money in their mattresses. Time to go back to that. Can't earn any interest on deposits anyway.

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Criminals thrive on the indulgence of Society's understanding.
Xqqme
Posts: 626
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Ohio
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"There will be blood. Who will be first?"
Oh, look! A squirrel!!
We're officially a third world country without private property rights and rule of law.
Jal
Posts: 512
Incept: 2009-03-25

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Quote:
"What assurance do you have that any property of yours that is not in your personal, immediate and physical possession, is actually protected by the rule of law if someone attempts to steal it?"


I wonder how long it will take for any money that has been put "in trust", let's say with a lawyer, for a mortgage transaction, to legally "disappear".
Randy123
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Earth
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Can't steal my house with my kids positioned on the turrets with semi-As.

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China is the Enemy. Wake Up.

New Normal. Same As The Old Awful.
Bluebird
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Silver
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Why should anyone save any money nowadays? There is no safe financial institution to hold extra cash. And what good will it be in the future?

So we've paid off our debts, house too. There is still a bit of money in the savings account, so I'm using it to stock up on extra canned food and water. What else can one do? (besides buying gold). Does anyone recommend paying off adult children car or school loans?

Donethat
Posts: 771
Incept: 2009-04-22

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Ulsterish, I can imagine the CUs will be thrown under the bus just before FDIC is.

Gen you have been on a roll pointing out the rule of law has gone in the US, and that the fractional reserve banking system is the one counterfeiting money to everyone else's detriment.

Bad enough that congress and the executive are the problem, but add the judiciary too. The local judiciary is usually not anything to enjoy either.

Other items to be stolen include your real estate equity etc, your home possessions and even your children. If you got a mortgage, fire insurance canceled, bingo you are toast, and the servicer fraudsters haven't even picked your locks.
Otiswild
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Inside you, the force is!
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Quote:
I have to think that credit unions are many times more safe then the big FDIC institutions especially since BOA transferred trillions of liability to their FDIC side.


Depends on the CU, and how much subprime glop (both residential and commercial) they have. I would assume community CUs would have less than corporate CUs, but it pays to check.
End_the_bubbles
Posts: 9520
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Green
The New 3rd World
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Quote:
Any property, in short, that you do not personally possess within reach of your fingers..... can be and will be, if a rich and politically powerful person steals it, - is already gone.


FIFY

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In the long run even the most despotic governments with all their brutality and cruelty are no match for ideas. Eventually the ideology that has won the support of the majority will prevail and cut the ground from under the tyrant's feet and rise in rebellion to overthrow their masters.
End_the_bubbles
Posts: 9520
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The New 3rd World
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What the hell, I'll say it again!

Until we start using these (which I don't expect anytime soon) - this bull**** will continue, and get progressively worse until EVERYONE has been financially stripped. Technically, we already have been stripped of everything, we're just still pretending we haven't.....




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In the long run even the most despotic governments with all their brutality and cruelty are no match for ideas. Eventually the ideology that has won the support of the majority will prevail and cut the ground from under the tyrant's feet and rise in rebellion to overthrow their masters.

Reason: add
Anti
Posts: 4294
Incept: 2007-10-09
Silver
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Bluebird, When my children bought cars recently I paid for them and they are paying me back monthly. I won't repossess if they fall on hard times and I figured my money was safer them owing me than in the bank.

Maybe student loans fall in the same category, but I hate seeing crime pay (as in getting paid back) for those lenders.

So I would say yes.

ETA - A psychological bonus for me is knowing some banking prick loses interest income.

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Health is better than health insurance
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Over the past 60 years, thousands of people have used the Gerson Therapy to recover from so-called “incurable” diseases such as cancer, diabetes, heart disease and arthritis.

Mdm
Posts: 333
Incept: 2010-10-13

South Florida
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Quote:
Until we start using these (which I don't expect anytime soon) - this bull**** will continue


Until they start selling guillotines at Wal-Mart, we will not see them. Heck, how many people even know a blacksmith that could make a blade for the thing?
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