| User Info
| Death Of OEMs Predicted (Again), Film At 11 in forum [Market-Ticker]
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Jymm
Posts: 71
Incept: 2012-01-22
Wisconsin
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Surface won't be the death of OEM's, but secure boot is a problem. I don't want Windows 8, but you will be forced into it, or like Red Hat and Ubuntu forced to pay Microsoft to run non-Microsoft Operating Systems on your own computer. I have already installed Linux on my computers. Microsoft is at the monopoly business again. Hopefully the courts will stop them, once again.
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Gable
Posts: 409
Incept: 2009-07-04
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I generally don't say someone is not too bright, but this guy is saying entrepreneurs, who generally are hard working, inventive, efficient, nimble, smart, and driven by a goal...will suddenly sit down since they are no longer needed in a given part of the market.
They will find a new market doing something else. We have all met or been one of these and you can not stop them. They adapt and survive if they are the fittest in their competitive world.
The dude obviously never paid attention in basic history class...
Edit totally unrelated...I just noticed the day I joined this site was July 4th, 2009...it was a period when I became aware of the real world...really was Independence Day in so many ways.
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In all of history, no government became more honest, less corrupt, or granted its citizens more rights as it grew in size. E.L. 2011
Ellie's Law-As an online discussion about the failures of the Obama Administration continues, the probability someone shouting "It's Bush's Fault" approaches 1
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Jotapay
Posts: 16719
Incept: 2008-08-26
Austin, Tx
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Quote:1. Microsoft's big draw isn't Windows, it's Office. 2a. My expectation is that Surface will change a few minds and move the needle... 2b. ...but it won't kill OEMs. 1. It's also gaming and other programs that only run well on Windows. 2a. I predict this will start something which will eventually completely turn office productivity on its head. Imagine employees carrying their PC in their pocket (i.e. a 6"-10" tablet) and able to do 60-95% of their work with it. Only those who are actually doing the hardcore business development (i.e. programming, engineering, creating spreadsheets, authoring) will need a keyboard and 1080p monitor. 2b. No way it will kill OEMs. Windows 8 and that mindset will not work for anyone who actually uses a computer as a computer. This author is an idiot and very wrong on several points, I think. "Sebastian Anthony" wrote.. 1. HTC, now one of the world’s largest smartphone makers, was virtually unheard of before Android.
2. This is a problem, however, because most OEMs simply aren’t set up to be innovative — they’re manufacturers of commodity goods, rather than desirable, artistic, feel-good products.
3. There is a reason that Apple’s computers look and feel like nothing else on the market: Other companies do not physically possess the equipment or resources to produce anything that even approaches an iPhone or MacBook Pro.
4. After 20 years at the top, smartphones outsold PCs last quarter.
5. Devs will be able to make Metro apps that perfectly utilize the hardware — like Android and iOS....
6. The risk, though, is that Windows 8 might be the last Microsoft operating system that you can install on your own hardware.
7. Windows 8 might be the fastest and most stable OS that Microsoft has ever developed, but it would be even better if it only worked on the Surface.
1. Total bull****. They have always been a major smartphone manufacturer, well before Android existed. This guy's a noob. 2. This line really makes me want to vomit right on his hipster ass. Products that make you feel good are more desirable than well-made parts that do a job correctly. 3. This is a total misunderstanding of the situation by him, I think. It was all Steve Jobs, IMO. He was a an obsessive product person. He was really ****ing driven to get his vision into a product and kept sending it back until it met his standards. Very few people who work in tech have that ability. Also, Apple does "not physically possess the equipment or resources to produce an iPhone or MacBook Pro." Apple has to hire other people to build the entire thing for them! 4. And the company that played the largest role to make that happen was an OEM: Samsung. 5. He REALLY conflates some things and ****s up huge here. He must know this is wrong so he just doesn't give a **** while trying to prove his point. The whole problem with Android is that the hardware can be different leading to many problems for developers trying to get one set of code to run on all the disparate devices out there. So the benefit that Surface and iDevices enjoy in this regard isn't one that Android can claim at all. 6. I have a really hard time believing this and think this is going to be complete bull****. There are millions and millions of PCs used in the workplace that have custom applications on them. Some of them are legacy, some are developed by a third party and some are developed internally. Unless you completely redesign how many of these applications work in favor of some sort of cloud-based model, then no company will go along with this. The strong requirement for heavy customization to the user's environment with apps, services and security will preclude Microsoft from ending Windows-on-OEM options anytime soon. Total horse****, I think. 7. Gamers, programmers and power users would like you punch you in your fat face for thinking that.
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Debtpie
Posts: 534
Incept: 2009-12-17
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The only thing Microsoft is good at killing is it's own success. They (sorta/almost) fail hand over first; only that early monopoly of Windows domination keeps them alive...but that is slipping away day by day...and their stupid moves are actually starting to surpass the income from Windows and other "successes"...not a good sign... Look at their last "Google/Yahoo Killing" move...2007 - "Microsoft buys aQuantive for $6 billion"...2012 - "Microsoft reports first quarterly loss on aQuantive write-off"..."due to its $6.2bn write-off of aQuantive"...100% failure to the tune of $6,200,000,000!!!...How many of those can they swallow? >>>Steve Jobs on Bill Gates "Bill is basically unimaginative and has never invented anything, which is why I think he's more comfortable now in philanthropy than technology. He just shamelessly ripped off other people's ideas." Right-on, Steve. Oh, and one last thing...no matter how ground breaking, promising, glass-breaking, revolutionary, what-ever-word-you-want-to-use to Describe whatever Microsoft may come up with...Microsoft will find a way to half-ass it as they always have... http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news....http://money.cnn.com/2007/05/18/technolo....http://blogs.computerworld.com/19143/ste....
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A Leader, or an Opportunist? "A leader has the capacity of vision, the ability to see where things are headed before people in general see those things." Mitt Romney --- DebtPie's definition: a leader decides where "things" should head and "leads" us there.
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Dazedncornfused
Posts: 310
Incept: 2010-10-13
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>Microsoft's big draw isn't Windows, it's Office.<
And only 2 of the modules at that. Stockbrokers like Excel, mostly because of the odd rounding errors it makes in their favor. I'm told OpenOffice rounds properly.
The other is PowerPoint, American management has gotten the silly idea that the only slide presentation software is PP, because if it isn't PP it's not a slideshow. Of course I've put together plenty with even IrfanView, and I see dopey managers spend their evenings and weekends trying to duplicate my slick stuff. Hey you need help call me at the beach, that's where I go Saturday summer afternoons.
I make a good living mailmerging donor names and Word ain't where it's at. A 10 year old version of WordPerfect beats Word every day.
Microsoft has done hardware before, the keyboards and mice work well. The talking toys, robots and other stuff, while nice, had no followup. How many dozens of software projects have died because of internal bickering? Are you still waiting for the next FoxBase/FoxPro update, Bunky? The Microsoft Jet database is crash prone trash, Bill and Steve the Chairthrower didn't learn anything from the Sybase acquisition.
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Stand up and be counted or line up and be numbered.
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Atmartin
Posts: 91
Incept: 2011-12-24
PNW
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Developers, developers, developers, developers!
Valve, the big online gaming software distro/occasional game maker has started trying to get their steam distro software and games to work under linux...
I don't want a tablet OS for my gaming/desktop PC. If I could get games to work reliably on linux I'd swap over and where is MS then?
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Gweedo
Posts: 97
Incept: 2010-11-12
Florida
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Until the business world, large and small, switches from PCs/Desktops, Desktop boxes are not going away. While I think many smaller organizations are poised to move this way over the next 5 years, there are huge sectors that are very far away from such a change: Engineering / CAD / Video Editing / Manufacturing. Good luck putting that "in the cloud" and "tablet only"
Oh yeah - and that picture... classic. "The Dude Abides"
Reason: The Dude Abides
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Jotapay
Posts: 16719
Incept: 2008-08-26
Austin, Tx
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Quote:Valve, the big online gaming software distro/occasional game maker has started trying to get their steam distro software and games to work under linux... That will be the day I switch and never look back. If I can play Battlefield 3/Fallout/Skyrim on Linux, then I'm done with Windows.
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Ponzi_unit
Posts: 8090
Incept: 2007-09-05
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I've been pricing 2k in computer parts that would allow me to combine a desktop to a media recorder/server/editor and general home office work, including trading and gaming machine. It has a built in 2 band router and can stream to connected devices, add another router and I've got four networks. I can set up guest accounts and have guests chose from multiple accounts, one for the kids, one for adults, one for business guests and simply delete the entire instance when they log off and give them access to remote desktop if I want so they could log in from home. My granddaughters can upload files from miles away, use my printer, let me comment on and help with their reports through their own account. I can charge about any devices that comes through the door and swap and convert files all while playing a game or trading. Desktop computers and wireless area networks are the only thing that makes wireless data plans feasible in the long run right now. Data demands are just too much not to be partially served more by local networks. About 25% of people set up their desktops for wireless and that number is growing. Think home hubs coming to the masses.
I don't much care for the dark internet, or whatever it's called because I don't want a murder contract transpiring on my hard drive, but if someone like Amazon or Akamai offered to subsidize my bandwidth or at least guarantee me certain levels of access to data I'd be happy to give a provider data space for the cloud. I've long been a willing supporter of shared computation projects as it is.
In some ways, it might in fact be irresponsible that data centers are isolated and amassed when they could be at the very least be entirely backed up over hundreds of thousands of our nations cities. In other words, there's plenty of room for progress.
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Taxpayers witnessed a crime and stayed around long enough to get charged with it.
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Jotapay
Posts: 16719
Incept: 2008-08-26
Austin, Tx
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Storage is cheap, they have tons of their own.
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Ponzi_unit
Posts: 8090
Incept: 2007-09-05
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Taxpayers witnessed a crime and stayed around long enough to get charged with it.
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Eireannx
Posts: 31
Incept: 2012-02-04
Melbourne, Australia
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It's an amusing conceit that tablets can replace PCs in business. I think of where I work (System Integrator) and I think 80% of the staff are heavily involved in document creation. The 20% I am unsure of are the pure sales force, because I do not know how much of a proposal is generated by them vs pre-sales.
The preferred idiom for these people appears to be a tablet with a docking station to provide keyboard, mouse etc. Which then leaves me with a device with nowhere near the power of my laptop in terms of memory / processing and very limited incremental portability.
This limited portability becomes decremental when I leave the office, because the table model has most of my data stored in some 'cloud'. Which means it is only really functional when I have good network connectivity. And of course I still need to dock a keyboard, making it just a flimsier laptop.
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Morla
Posts: 815
Incept: 2009-11-09
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Valve might be able to port its own titles to Linux, but most of their customers are loaded down with games that require Windows.
I don't even like laptop keyboards, so I'm sure whatever they're trying for this tablet would drive me nuts.. and touchscreens.. all the usefulness of a mouse, now with your finger in the way! Utility is almost always sacrificed for portability. Touch screens are a compromise, not an upgrade from the mouse and keyboard.
Tablets can't truly replace PCs, and I doubt they can even replace laptops. Tablets have NO inherent advantage over PCs or laptops for any specific task, unless you absolutely have to do something while walking. Tablets are going to remain a niche item useful mostly to those who travel a lot or have only light to moderate computing needs (email, browsing, whatever). A lot of self-competition as well due to the functionality overlap with smartphones.
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Fear of govt IS the government.. Statism is a pack of unbacked threats; If govt gets out of control, ignore it and go about life as you see fit. Where's your crown, King Nothing?
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Analog
Posts: 541
Incept: 2010-12-29
arkansas ozarks
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Quote:>>>Steve Jobs on Bill Gates "Bill is basically unimaginative and has never invented anything, which is why I think he's more comfortable now in philanthropy than technology. He just shamelessly ripped off other people's ideas."
i'm a little harder on Gates. He taught a whole generation to expect and reward Mediocrity. Small wonder America has failed. We worship Beelzebub.
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Pitz
Posts: 860
Incept: 2010-04-08
voluntary resigned
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Quote:That will be the day I switch and never look back. If I can play Battlefield 3/Fallout/Skyrim on Linux, then I'm done with Windows. Good luck with that Jotapay, Linux video drivers are still at a fraction of overall maturity as the MS-Windows equivalent. I don't know the nitty-gritty details of why, but I know that there's still a mere fraction of the effort or economic imperative for the video logic vendors to make their products work well under Linux. With Linus Torvalds and one of the largest graphics silicon vendors in a war of words right now....don't expect this to change quickly.
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Jstanley01
Posts: 8166
Incept: 2008-07-30
San Antonio, Texas
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MS has been leveraging its installed base since MS-DOS, which means the company has never had to depend on real innovation. In the OS space its customers have no leverage, so it can shift the steering wheel from the left to the right to the back seat to the top, willy-nilly all it likes. Nice work if you can get it.
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You can't cheat an honest man. ~P.T. Barnum
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Mro
Posts: 161
Incept: 2009-03-27
Toronto
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Just wanted to clear up this point by Jota: Quote: 3. This is a total misunderstanding of the situation by him, I think. It was all Steve Jobs, IMO. He was a an obsessive product person. He was really ****ing driven to get his vision into a product and kept sending it back until it met his standards. Very few people who work in tech have that ability. Also, Apple does "not physically possess the equipment or resources to produce an iPhone or MacBook Pro." Apple has to hire other people to build the entire thing for them!
in regards to the original point: Quote: 3. There is a reason that Apple’s computers look and feel like nothing else on the market: Other companies do not physically possess the equipment or resources to produce anything that even approaches an iPhone or MacBook Pro.
It sounds odd on its face, but this is actually the case. Other manufacturers are shut out of various "process and materials" improvements that Apple arranges with suppliers because Apple actually funds the tooling of their assembly line and arranges: 1. first, an exclusive deal to use the new process for x years 2. and subsequently, a discount on product based on the equipment moving forward Effectively, this "buys" Apple new manufacturing tech and its benefits, without the cost of ongoing maintenance of the plant. Apple arranges to always have an advantage in price, given that they've layed out the initial capital to fund the tech: http://www.theverge.com/2011/11/21/25780....(not quite the source I was hoping to quote - but it gives a sense of it - there's an article out there that describes how Apple uses its cash hoard to lock in this sort of agreement for several years, making it effectively exclusive, and then expensive for competitors moving forward).
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Jotapay
Posts: 16719
Incept: 2008-08-26
Austin, Tx
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Quote:Apple actually funds the tooling of their assembly line and arranges: With whom do they do this? Which phone parts?
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Phxkevin
Posts: 353
Incept: 2010-06-25
Phoenix Arizona
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I've been waiting most of my life for an accurate voice interface with computing devices. Its better than its ever been, but not quite there. "I'm sorry I didn't understand your request"
I agree that for content creation, you need a better interface than what a tablet offers. By the time you plug the keyboard and mouse into your tablet or phone, you might as well have a net book, laptop or desktop.
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Congress persons are all the same, republican or democrat, conservative or liberal. They talk a good game, but the results (or lack thereof) show something different.
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Mro
Posts: 161
Incept: 2009-03-27
Toronto
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@Jota - I'm still Googling to see if I can find the article that pulled it all together, but I've come across a few that cover pieces of it: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/app....http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2012/0507/g....Here's an excerpt from the second that hints at my contention: Quote:Discussions with suppliers in Asia gave Huberty the answer. “Put yourself in the shoes of suppliers for Nokia ( NOK - news - people ), Motorola ( MOT - news - people ), HP and Dell ( DELL - news - people ), with businesses that are very volatile. They have to build out capacity for these companies, and when the products don’t sell well, their margins go down,” she says. “If a customer comes to you and says, ‘I will take the equipment risk, and I will own it so you don’t have to depreciate it. I take the volatility out of your business,’ there’s no way most of them are going to say no.” Apple offers its suppliers a deal - we'll buy the equipment, and we'll own it - and in return Apple gets a leg up on competitors. Eventually, the manufacturer can use that equipment to service other customers, but Apple locks up initial usage and, due to the volume of product it requires, tends to lock up the equipment for many years after any exclusivity agreement expires. Apple has done this for machining tools used in it's laptop unibody designs. I believe that the first article also talks about lasers used to cut components. A recent article I'd come across also talks about Apple buying up large volumes of raw materials like aluminum for its products. Basically they're using their pile of cash and locking out competitors in the marketplace. It's an inversion of the old 90's Microsoft tactic. Microsoft formed a sort of monopoly in its deals with OEMs. Apple is working it from the other side and forming a monopsony (monopoly = the only seller, monopsony = the only buyer): http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/07/05/h....Anyhow, hope some of this is at least a bit enlightening.
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Jotapay
Posts: 16719
Incept: 2008-08-26
Austin, Tx
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Mro, it seems to me you're talking more about manufacturing the plasticky bits in a MacBook or iPad. Not so much the electronics. Assuming that is true, it seems like fitting out a plant to manufacture plastic bits to spec isn't going to create an enormous, controlling dynamic where Apple wields its monopoly over the manufacturing capacity for plasticky bits. At least not as much as imagined. After all, they are just plasticky bits. I'm extremely skeptical Apple is cornering the market on available aluminum, since it's only one of the most plentiful elements here.
There's quite a bit more to an iPhone though than long hydrocarbon chains, and those suppliers do not sell factory space or tools to Apple at all (excepting the touchscreens). And those are the most expensive parts.
Reason: To add: (excepting the touchscreens)
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Mro
Posts: 161
Incept: 2009-03-27
Toronto
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I think you're right about this being more about non-electronic components. I'd quibble about the "plasticy" characterization, of course :) I don't think Apple has done a lot in plastic since early iPods and more recently their low-end notebooks.
This isn't about the chips that everyone has access to, but rather about everything else. You have companies like HP and Dell attempting to build compelling Ultrabooks, but Apple's design for things like the body of the machine are hard to replicate at anything like a competitive price. Other manufacturers are trying to produce tablets and are finding that they can't get volume production for metal cases along the lines of Apple stuff. They've got to build "plasticy" alternatives typically.
At the end of the day, there are certain aspects of the products that Apple and other manufacturers produce that simply aren't going to be very different. They're all going to use Intel or ARM or AMD CPUs for example. They're going to use some sort of integrated or discrete GPU, or combination thereof. You can't compete on that. It's the price of entry.
But I think that what Apple has hit upon, and what other manufacturers are trying to replicate, and doing poorly at right now, is precisely this "other" stuff. Whether it's materials and fit-and-finish, or the software, or an ecosystem, a lot of competitors are trying to match Apple and are falling short. And numbers like gross margin and market share growth tell the tale.
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Jotapay
Posts: 16719
Incept: 2008-08-26
Austin, Tx
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Right, plasticky may be pushing it. It's good that Apple is taking control of parts of their supply chain. That's good. I see that as taking ownership of their idea, rather than letting someone else just supply a part for them. The product is a good product, no doubt. I don't see how someone else couldn't do the same, if they had the ability. The raw materials and manufacturing capacity do exist for that.
I agree that most other laptop manufacturers are basically turning out crap (in my opinion). I use my laptop for programming and database work, so I really like my Lenovo W-series workstation laptop. It's well-made for my purposes. But all other manufacturers' laptops basically look like throwaway, junky electronics.
So my response above, Apple can't even make Apple products itself, should be more nuanced. Apple has to reply on it's fiercest competitors for some of the most important electronics in an iPhone or iPad. Apple has the edge in design and lead time in manufacturing, for sure. But I think that lead is diminishing. This isn't 2007 any more. The Samsung Galaxy Tab, S-II and III is a serious competitor, although Android software still isn't as good yet.
I think what you're doing is pointing out what Apple's "got" that other companies just don't have (but could have, if they had the ability to innovate like that). I'll agree, there is something there. But the guy who was there, who kept sending people back when the product wasn't good enough yet to keep improving it, isn't there any more. Almost nobody has that ability that works in technology/IT. So I think you will start to see Apple's products trend back towards "very good" from "amazing" for the rest of the decade. The ExtremeTech author's statement that no one else could make a product like an Apple product will seem more and more inaccurate.
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