No, Really? (Fiscal Destruction)
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2012-08-09 09:16
by Karl Denninger
in Editorial
Ignore this thread
No, Really? (Fiscal Destruction)
 

Isn't it amusing how this is entirely ignored within the markets?

The U.S. fiscal gap, calculated (by us) using the Congressional Budget Office’s realistic long-term budget forecast -- the Alternative Fiscal Scenario -- is now $222 trillion. Last year, it was $211 trillion. The $11 trillion difference -- this year’s true federal deficit -- is 10 times larger than the official deficit and roughly as large as the entire stock of official debt in public hands.

We of course are not really talking about this.  Oh we do talk about the $1 trillion+, more or less, that we add to the "official debt", but nowhere is mentioned the growth in the actual liabilities -- if, that is, you accept that things like Medicare are actual obligations.

Hint: They're not.

When fully retired, 78 million baby boomers will collect, on average, more than 85 percent of per-capita gross domestic product ($40,000 in today’s dollars) in Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid benefits. Each passing year brings these outlays one year closer, which raises their present value.

No they won't.  Not because they won't try to, but because the working people of the nation won't pay it.  If pressed that hard they will do what all people do when pressed hard enough -- they will revolt, violently if necessary.  The reason why is obvious and inescapable; nobody submits to being a slave voluntarily and communism doesn't work as the quality and quantity of work drops as you try to put your boot on the people's neck. 

Ask young people about this -- will you give up everything you earn and have so your Dear Old Dad can live in the way to which he is "entitled", including all the medical care he wants despite being 300lbs and eating like a pig for the last 30 years?

Answer: No.

Compassion?  Sure, especially for their own parents.  But forcible extraction of literally every bit of value in the labor that working people have so that the "old farts" can sit in their ass and collect that to which they're "entitled"? 

Not a prayer in Hell.

That's a problem.

The answer for the U.S. isn’t pretty. Closing the gap using taxes requires an immediate and permanent 64 percent increase in all federal taxes. Alternatively, the U.S. needs to cut, immediately and permanently, all federal purchases and transfer payments, including Social Security and Medicare benefits, by 40 percent. Or it can mix these terrible fiscal medicines with honey, namely radical fiscal reforms that make the economy much fairer and far stronger. What the government can’t do is pay its bills by spending more and taxing less. America’s children, whose futures are being rapidly destroyed, are smart enough to tell us this.

Actually, if we don't cut this crap out they're going to tell us with guns, pitchforks and torches -- or simply by refusing to work at all.

This is the problem with confiscatory tax rates -- they drive behavior.  People say that "very few" people ever paid the 90% tax rates of years past.  That's true.  Nobody made that much, on purpose. 

You could set the tax rate over $250,000 at 100% if you wanted to.  There are two problems with such a move -- first, doing so wouldn't close the deficit (there aren't enough people who make over $250,000 and enough income to steal doing this to reach budget balance) but more importantly if you did this the next year nobody would make more than $249,999 since they would get to keep none of it!

What would that do to our economy? Good question; a lot of people would spend a lot of time at the beach instead of innovating and creating, I suspect.  And while this might be good for the makers of rum and various other libations, I doubt very much the net economic effect would be positive.

As I noted yesterday (and, I might note, forms one of the key items in Leverage, available to the right) there are interconnected items in our national debate that nobody wants to talk about as interconnected items.  Yet we have to, because they form the basis of the fiscal challenges we face.

Policy decisions were intentionally taken that, on any objective basis, amount to massive frauds against the public.  A tiny minority of people -- banksters -- have benefited tremendously from these frauds.  The expansion of the credit bubble over the last 30 years has made a tiny percentage of the population fabulously "wealthy" but the wealth they obtained was false prosperity in the first instance.  It appeared to be "freely earned and/or given" but it was not; it was stolen as the premise under which it was tendered was knowingly false and the beneficiaries are the ones who constructed the knowingly-false edifice under which they obtained it.

When you get down to brass tacks it all comes down to the reality of two exponential functions.  They always run away from one another.  It cannot be otherwise; this is a basic principle of arithmetic, and no amount of arm-waving can or ever will change it.

That's the bottom line right there.  Any two growth functions, where one has a larger growth figure than the other, will run away from one another.  Growth in debt, irrespective of the name you give it (e.g. "entitlements", whatever) may never exceed the growth in the economy.

If it does the above happens.  It will not happen some of the time, it will not happen only if you get unlucky, it will not happen only on Tuesdays, it will happen each and every time, without fail, and it will screw you each and every time without fail.  It must therefore never be allowed to happen.

This is what all fiscal policy debates are ultimately about.  It has never and will never be about anything else.  It can't be about anything else, because this is the reality of that fiscal debate, whether people wish to deal with and admit it or not.

We're still arguing over stupid things, more than 30 years after the alleged debate began.

Until we address and conform our debate to the above simple mathematical relationship no progress will be made, and the longer we wait to do so the higher the odds that an all-on fiscal and economic collapse becomes inevitable.

Discussion below (registration required to post)
 

Main Navigation
Full-Text Search & Archives
Archive Access
Get Adobe Flash player





Blogtalk 3:30 CT Mondays
Items To Look At


Discuss The Capital Markets along with daily technical analysis with our Gold Donor program.

Where We Are, Where We're Heading (2013) - The annual 2013 Ticker

Links and Blogroll
Our policy on reciprocal links: Send us an email with your information and why you think your blog or news site would make a good addition - in most cases reciprocal link requests will be granted.
Legal Disclaimer

The content on this site is provided without any warranty, express or implied. All opinions expressed on this site are those of the author and may contain errors or omissions.

NO MATERIAL HERE CONSTITUTES "INVESTMENT ADVICE" NOR IS IT A RECOMMENDATION TO BUY OR SELL ANY FINANCIAL INSTRUMENT, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO STOCKS, OPTIONS, BONDS OR FUTURES.

The author may have a position in any company or security mentioned herein. Actions you undertake as a consequence of any analysis, opinion or advertisement on this site are your sole responsibility.

Looking for "The Best of Market Ticker"? Check out
Ticker Classics.

Visit the forum to discuss this and other investing-related topics; see the FAQ on the forum for information about Gold Donor status including access to our technical analysis video server.

Market charts, when present, used with permission of TD Ameritrade/ThinkOrSwim Inc. Neither TD Ameritrade or ThinkOrSwim have reviewed, approved or disapproved any content herein.

The Market Ticker content may be reproduced or excerpted online for non-commercial purposes provided full attribution is given and the original article source is linked to. Please contact Karl Denninger for reprint permission in other media or for commercial use.

Submissions may be sent "over the transom" to The Editor at any time. To be considered for publication your submission must include full and correct contact information and be related to an economic or political matter of the day. All submissions become the property of The Market Ticker.

Leads on stories of current economic and political interest are always welcome. Our fax tip line is 850-897-9364; please include contact information with your transmission.

 
Comments.......
User: Not logged on
Login Register Top Blog Top Blog Topics FAQ
Showing Page 1 of 3  First123Last
User Info No, Really? (Fiscal Destruction) in forum [Market-Ticker]
Stonedog
Posts: 2080
Incept: 2008-05-29
Green A True American Patriot!
New Jersey
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Karl - I actually had an ongoing conversation with a retiree over the weekend on the Yahoo! Boards and even after I had finally managed to shut him up about "my lies" proving to him that there was no way we could pay for medicare and medicaid with 9.2% exponential growth, he still insisted that he was entitled to it and that I had "bad character" for insisting that the math did not lie and that we needed to abolish the programs... What scared me was the notion that this sort of entitlement mentality might exist throughout the baby boomer generation. If it is they WILL take the nation completely over the fiscal cliff.

----------
"I would characterize my professional disdain as more of a professional contempt for their [Central Banker, Banker and politician] economic and financial policies, priorities, presumptions and prescriptions." - Lauren Lyster on Capital Account for Friday June 16, 2012

"All the stimulus, the bailouts, the quantit
Genesis
Posts: 130772
Incept: 2007-06-26
Admin A True American Patriot!
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Yep.

It does and they will. I didn't speak to my parents for nearly a decade over this -- that fight went back to the 1990s with them. My father, incidentally, was a CPA -- he knew damn well I was right, admitted it, and didn't care.

----------
I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Kylafoon
Posts: 2458
Incept: 2009-02-05
Gold
Zombie Portal Lookout
Online
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Quote:
We're still arguing over stupid things, more than 30 years after the alleged debate began.


I couldn't help but think of the Forrest Gump line.
"Stupid is as stupid does."

30 years of the ascension of the non-payer. There is the stupid..


----------
"...But whenever we see things done wildly, but taken tamely, then the State is growing insane..." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton 1910

"I found a flaw in the model that I perceived is the critical functioning structure that defines how the world works." - Alan Greenspan, October 2008
Tesla
Posts: 15542
Incept: 2008-04-03
Green A True American Patriot!
State of Disbelief
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
THEY ? Hey Stone, it's not JUST the Boomers; it's every entitlement ***** living off the gov teat. Ask the Silent Generation whether they're entitled to their SS even tho they paid so little into it ? Ask my Mother's 83 yo neighbor whether she's entitled to that hip replacement she's getting via Medicare next week, or her weekly sessions at the doctors' offices, or that $1 fare from Amtrak while the working stiffs pay 20x that, or...

Hate to burst your bubble, folks, but the Silent Generation entitlement *****s are already sucking hard, our fedgov is inviting foreign entitlement *****s to live off of us, and the next generation of retired entitlement *****s coming along (Boomers) will break it completely.

----------
"Even a dog knows the difference between being stumbled over and being kicked." -Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes

"Neither the wisest Constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt." -Samuel Adams

Rd
Posts: 470
Incept: 2008-02-27
Gold
Long Island, NY
Online
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
The next major political party will be the Pillow Party

Here in New York the Government Unions have the members well trained to deny the math, when going over the math with them they eventually say get the needed pension money from tax's. The fight will be something to watch.




Stonedog
Posts: 2080
Incept: 2008-05-29
Green A True American Patriot!
New Jersey
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Tesla - that's a good point - the only reason I choose to mention Boomers is that the "gentleman" had only recently retired... which made be believe that he was a Boomer. I stand correct.

----------
"I would characterize my professional disdain as more of a professional contempt for their [Central Banker, Banker and politician] economic and financial policies, priorities, presumptions and prescriptions." - Lauren Lyster on Capital Account for Friday June 16, 2012

"All the stimulus, the bailouts, the quantit
Ben
Posts: 6208
Incept: 2009-10-09
Silver
The Distant, Glorious, Past
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
They simply do not care.

They paid in, they have a balance, it is their money and they want it so that they may sit at home, not work, watch TV all day, go to the doctor once a week, and nap the rest of the time.

This will destroy the country.

----------
"Why are you going to learn French?"
"Because I'm going to France," says Joe.
"I'm from the future. You should go to China."
Flappingeagle
Posts: 1228
Incept: 2011-04-14

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Quote:
Actually, if we don't cut this crap out they're going to tell us with guns, pitchforks and torches -- or simply by refusing to work at all.


When they all just sit on their asses and say, btw shove those student loans, it'll be over. Student loans in a way, are a mechanism for the government to use to demand that you work. It will not work though because the people will just refuse to cooperate.

As for blaming the silent generation vs the baby boomers, blame both, they were/are both going along with the scheme.

Flap

----------
Here are my predictions for everyone to see:
S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu.
"You can't build a house of cards on a shaking table." - Tony Johns
The January 2015 AMZN put at $130 (cost $4.25) will be a winner.
Flyingillini
Posts: 87
Incept: 2009-06-09
Green
Reno, NV
Online
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Quite simply, there is no hope for it to ever be fixed. The FSA (and this includes people on SS and medicare) thinks they are entitled to all this crap. It has grown to the point where they outnumber sane people, and they will never willingly give it up. Its just a matter of voting numbers at this point.
Dazedncornfused
Posts: 313
Incept: 2010-10-13
Green
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
The latest number being bandied about is 100 million individuals are receiving some sort of Federal level welfare - exclusive of those receiving just Social Security and Medicare.

That figure is actually much higher, because it also doesn't include those who are working a job at least partially funded from the Feds. That would include every public school teacher, employees at colleges and universities (can you say student loans), highway repair projects, the state administration of EBT cards, police (they get bonus dollars for drunk driving and DV arrests), fire depts (Rural Development is now funding most all truck and equip purchases) Rural Dev funds most senior bldgs and park construction... The list is staggering. It's all the largesse from the Fed Reserve winding up in everyone's pockets.


----------
Stand up and be counted or line up and be numbered.
Mayorquimby
Posts: 13909
Incept: 2008-09-18
Green
The Archaic Past
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Save as much cash as you can because the fight over whatever you earn in the future will be EPIC.

----------
They who wish to hurt you, work within the law.
- Morrissey

Gold is theft.
Debtpie
Posts: 534
Incept: 2009-12-17

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Quote:
...but more importantly if you did this the next year nobody would make more than $249,999 since they would get to keep none of it!

I wonder what effect that would have on those 8 Figure CEO salaries?

What a trajedy...it would put an end to $23 Million payday for the CEO of Starbucks, while the workers there earn $15,000 with ZERO benefits...

That's the problem folks...how we solve it, I'm all ears...

Companies like Starbucks shift enormous amounts of the profits into the upper managements pockets while shifting the real cost of employing people onto the backs of the taxpayers.

At an average salary of $15,000 a year, every Starbucks Barista qualifies for "Free" medical care through Medicaid along with all the other welfare freebees.

The CEO walks with $23,000,000 and the Tax Payer gets the bills for his employees health and welfare...and Romney wants to put more money into the CEO's pockets?

I'm not for 100% tax rates, but with people like Romney and Buffet paying 14% or less, something is wrong there in that the "profits' they've earned have largely come from shifting business employee expenses to the taxpayer...we should put an end to that...If the CEO's want the taxpayer to pick up the health care tab of his employees, then lets take the cost out of his pay...As Karl says, either we tax to match spending or we pull back spending...

----------
A Leader, or an Opportunist? "A leader has the capacity of vision, the ability to see where things are headed before people in general see those things." Mitt Romney --- DebtPie's definition: a leader decides where "things" should head and "leads" us there.

Ben
Posts: 6208
Incept: 2009-10-09
Silver
The Distant, Glorious, Past
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
The voting numbers of retired voters, nothing to do but vote and think about politics, is exploding and means that everyone is now voting themselves others money.

----------
"Why are you going to learn French?"
"Because I'm going to France," says Joe.
"I'm from the future. You should go to China."
Tesla
Posts: 15542
Incept: 2008-04-03
Green A True American Patriot!
State of Disbelief
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
The "real" cost of employing people is completely driven by laws and regulations. You can look at current labor laws and regulations today to determine what people will do going forward. Mandate that any company with 50+ employees pay health insurance ? Structure your company so you only have 49. Regulations apply to companies with more than 15 employees ? Solution - have only 15 or fewer.

A salary is only the beginning cost of the federal, state and local gov rope around your neck.

----------
"Even a dog knows the difference between being stumbled over and being kicked." -Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes

"Neither the wisest Constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt." -Samuel Adams
Bluebird
Posts: 1381
Incept: 2008-05-02
Silver
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
It isn't just the boomers or silents, but also the genXrs and the teens. It's most everyone, and just about anyone who has a credit card.

My 30-something daughter-in-law is an example of the spoiled princess who must have whatever she wants, and she has got to have it NOW. Credit cards always being used. Out of all of the people I know, she will be the one who will be the most distraught and angry when this system collapses.

Mayorquimby
Posts: 13909
Incept: 2008-09-18
Green
The Archaic Past
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
All a credit card does is give you say $10K of additional purchasing power in the near term at the expense of reducing your purchasing power by say $500 a month for a decade or more.

----------
They who wish to hurt you, work within the law.
- Morrissey

Gold is theft.
Skoolmarm
Posts: 23
Incept: 2011-05-26

fl/tenn
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
I can understand how hurt your parents must have been. That's because my oldest son and I had a similar conversation, and he told me it wasn't right that his tax money was being used to support his old man.

Of course, he was perfectly willing to collect HIS SS and M/C when the time came.

Oh, did I neglect to mention that he, his wife, and 2 children had been living with us in our house for 8 years paying no rent or utilities? The only reason I didn't toss him was because of my grandbabies.

BTW, I don't dispute your math; only the tenor of your message. And I'm sure your folks weren't supporting you.

So I guess we need to prepare to be thrown under the bus, or set adrift on an iceflow. Do they still do that?
Yaldor
Posts: 2687
Incept: 2008-05-17

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Why tax income when all you need is to confiscate the assets of people like this to close the deficit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JX9k6gFX_....

----------
For every crash the probability of someone showing that he predicted it is near 1 .

For every prediction of an imminent crash the probability of it being correct is almost zero
Mdm
Posts: 333
Incept: 2010-10-13

South Florida
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Quote:
So I guess we need to prepare to be thrown under the bus, or set adrift on an iceflow. Do they still do that?


No, I would just prepare to face your mortality and that if you need a triple bypass at 90 years old that Medicare is going to say no.
Genesis
Posts: 130772
Incept: 2007-06-26
Admin A True American Patriot!
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Quote:
What a trajedy...it would put an end to $23 Million payday for the CEO of Starbucks, while the workers there earn $15,000 with ZERO benefits...

That's the problem folks...how we solve it, I'm all ears...

Companies like Starbucks shift enormous amounts of the profits into the upper managements pockets while shifting the real cost of employing people onto the backs of the taxpayers.

Uh, sorry.

Starbucks has ~37,000 employees.

If you took all but one of the $23 million from the CEO and paid the workers with the other $22 million you would increase the $15,000 salary by a total of less than $12/week.

It's a nice fantasy that simply redistributing (by force?) the CEO's pay down to the workers would "fix the problem", but the truth is that it is a fantasy.

----------
I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Yaldor
Posts: 2687
Incept: 2008-05-17

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Gen,

If you look at only the CEO pay at Starbucks - of course you are right.

But look at all those on wall street, the city (noy just the top five in every firm - but all of the banksters) and the Saudi investors - this is where the big money is . These are the people who robbed the whole world . We need to redistribute what was stolen from the people. It is no longer an issue of paying employees (as the in Starbucks case) but of taking punitive damages to restore what was stolen from the whole nation and the whole word using a century of inflation.

----------
For every crash the probability of someone showing that he predicted it is near 1 .

For every prediction of an imminent crash the probability of it being correct is almost zero
Skoolmarm
Posts: 23
Incept: 2011-05-26

fl/tenn
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
"No, I would just prepare to face your mortality and that if you need a triple bypass at 90 years old that Medicare is going to say no."
And I agree they should.

I've been prepared to face mortality for a long time. And I can't imagine going thru that at 90.

Crzymorse
Posts: 1193
Incept: 2010-06-25

Maryland
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
A quick comment on taxes. When income taxes get too high the benefits to the upper class come in different ways than salary. Meals, travel, conferences and increased vacation time start to make up for the income difference. It's a way to skirt the taxes without changing your lifestyle.
Debtpie
Posts: 534
Incept: 2009-12-17

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Quote:
It's a nice fantasy that simply redistributing (by force?) the CEO's pay down to the workers would "fix the problem", but the truth is that it is a fantasy.


You're correct...but that's not my (total) point...my point is that the management of Starbucks is shifting the true cost of it's workforce onto the taxpayers.

Only through the shifting of expenses to the taxpayers does Starbucks "earn" enough profit to pay the CEO $23,000,000 a year.

If we want taxpayers to subsidize businesses to preserve those 8 figure CEO salaries, and if we also want to end deficit spending, then we must tax Starbucks enough to cover the costs it's shifting to us.

I know, I know...that would shut them down...so in the end...my point is that our whole system is F'd up...and the "Romney Plan" to give tax breaks to the wealthiest is a big FAIL.

----------
A Leader, or an Opportunist? "A leader has the capacity of vision, the ability to see where things are headed before people in general see those things." Mitt Romney --- DebtPie's definition: a leader decides where "things" should head and "leads" us there.

Login Register Top Blog Top Blog Topics FAQ
Showing Page 1 of 3  First123Last