| User Info
| One Dollar Of Capital - A Definition And Challenge in forum [Market-Ticker]
|
Mayorquimby
Posts: 13909
Incept: 2008-09-18
The Archaic Past
|
Correction: "would not have mattered"...
Awesome ticker. If there is one concept people should come to TF to understand it is this one.
----------
They who wish to hurt you, work within the law. - Morrissey
Gold is theft.
|
Flappingeagle
Posts: 1227
Incept: 2011-04-14
|
Quote:A secured loan (e.g. a letter of credit, a home mortgage for less than the home is worth, a car loan for less than the depreciated value of the vehicle, etc) may be made without capital being posted as the security is the capital. Would that in essence allow banks to create some money, and thus inflate the money supply, but in a very limited way? I am trying to grasp every nuance of this idea. Flap
----------
Here are my predictions for everyone to see: S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu. "You can't build a house of cards on a shaking table." - Tony Johns The January 2015 AMZN put at $130 (cost $4.25) will be a winner.
|
Genesis
Posts: 130752
Incept: 2007-06-26
|
It allows time-shifting (which is what a bank letter of credit does) but not inflation of the money supply.
The argument that banksters always make is that this is all they're doing. Imposing One Dollar of Capital would match reality to their rhetoric.
----------
I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
|
Bertdilbert
Posts: 2661
Incept: 2008-12-22
CA
|
If banks hold 30 year paper and the fed drops interest rates, does that create money? Since the 30 year paper is now worth a lot more.
----------
Dear Euroland: Relax, Germany has a plan for your money!
Political Capital Defined: We are out of money but will tax our citizens for whatever it takes to "SAVE" the Euro.
|
Flappingeagle
Posts: 1227
Incept: 2011-04-14
|
Following up some more. Suppose I put 25 down and the bank loans me 100 on a house. Does the bank have to have that 100 or can they create it?
If they can create it, it does inflate the money supply but it is self-liquidating, just over a much longer period of years. Is there an advantage of being an early borrower in such a system or, is such advantage if any only at the very beginning in that we would soon reach steady-state?
On real estate, there may need to be two more conditions on top of say a minimum of 20% down. One, NO programs of ANY TYPE to help people get the down payment. Two, unless there is fraud or destruction of the property all loans are non-recourse. The bank takes the collateral and its over.
Flap
----------
Here are my predictions for everyone to see: S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu. "You can't build a house of cards on a shaking table." - Tony Johns The January 2015 AMZN put at $130 (cost $4.25) will be a winner.
|
Genesis
Posts: 130752
Incept: 2007-06-26
|
All credit that is self-liquidating is inherently a time-shift of demand. That's why most economists ignore it in their computations.
But if that's the use of credit (self-liquidating, irrespective of time) then credit should grow at about the rate of GDP. It hasn't -- it has grown much faster. This is proof that the intent is otherwise than what is stated.
Self-liquidating credit temporarily increases the money supply but when it is matched against an asset that is impounded as collateral while the money supply supply increases the total amount of wealth in the system does not; it is purely a swap of liquidity .vs. wealth.
If you forbid lending without 100% reserves even collateralized then you are effectively imposing a 200% reserve where collateral is taken! This would be ridiculously deflationary rather than neutral and would immediately cause all lending to become uncollateralized since the price of the loan would go up to reflect uncollerateralized status even in the presence of collateral (that is, nobody would post it as there would be no differential in price.)
----------
I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
|
Throxxofvron
Posts: 10325
Incept: 2009-02-17
Hyper-Speculative Psycho-Facsistic Parabolic Blow-Off
|
Karl Denninger wrote..We impose the following standards on all institutions: Karl Denninger wrote.. Because we cannot trust the government nor can we seem to prosecute government agencies and individuals successfully when their malfeasance results in the loss of customer funds, FDIC insurance must be maintained. Really? EXACTLY HOW? WHO is 'We' and; how will these standards be imposed IF the Government and the Bureaucrats cannot be trusted, controlled, restrained or punished?
The problem IS NOT one of Regulatory Statutes: it IS a problem of Regulatory Capture and Corruption.Citi-Group and Travellers were merged with the 'approval of Regulators' despite clear - absolutely 100% clear- legal prohibition to that merger. -The Legal Prohibition DID NOT Matter! -Laws and Rules DO NOT matter and WILL NOT be adhered to. -There are no Structures in place to allow the Citizenry to directly challenge the activity of Government Bureaucrats. -The Courts DO NOT Function. - Separation Of Powers My Ass: the Courts AUTOMATICALLY side with the Government which gives them 'Legitimacy' in the first place. -It's NOT an Unconstitutional Mandate: It's a TAX for NOT COMPLYING with an Unconstitutional Mandate! -The Dept. of Justice does not function. -Voter Fraud? Gun Running? Money Laundering ( at the Banks! )? -Congress DOES NOT function. Dept. Ceiling? Pass the Bill to find out what is in it? Promoting ANY Regulatory Regime WITHOUT True and Actionable provisions for Punishing Regulatory Inactivity and/or Collusion is -forgive Me- IDIOCY or INSANITY; -and will achieve NOTHING. ONE DOLLAR OF CAPITAL WILL NOT AND CANNOT WORK WITHOUT A SERIOUS *NO JOKE* 100% REAL AND ENFORCEABLE DEATH PENALTY TO THOSE PERSONS THAT WOULD HAVE ANY PART AS A BUSINESS PERSON OR REGULATOR/BUREAUCRAT IN VIOLATING THE LAW.ONE DOLLAR OF CAPITAL *MUST* BE ACCOMPANIED WITH ONE LENGTH OF HANGIN' ROPE TO BE EFFECTIVE AND USEFUL. NOTHING whatsoever will be solved without merciless violent punishment of so much as attempts at Bureaucratic Exception and Regulatory Inactivity.
----------
DIONYSUS: " Thou hast no knowledge of the life thou art leading; thy very existence is now a mystery to thee. " -from 'The Bacchantes' By Euripides “During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.” -George Orwell
|
Andysvw
Posts: 1745
Incept: 2010-06-26
Tujunga Ca
|
Throx + 1000
Nothing will work until we can hold all to one standard. Judges should be the first ones held to the very standards they impose upon all of us.
|
Bertdilbert
Posts: 2661
Incept: 2008-12-22
CA
|
I got an e mail from my congressperson. She wanted me to take a "tax cut survey"
First question: End all tax breaks for those making more than $250,000 a year so we can invest in infrastructure and education.
Of course she is a democrat and heavily union supported. If I were to actually waste my time filling out her little survey, what good would it do? These *******s can't even pass a budget, and we operate on continuing resolutions. If congress can't be responsible enough to pass a budget, how could they be expected to be responsible and pass one dollar of capital?
I side with Throxx.
----------
Dear Euroland: Relax, Germany has a plan for your money!
Political Capital Defined: We are out of money but will tax our citizens for whatever it takes to "SAVE" the Euro.
|
Marcustullius
Posts: 202
Incept: 2010-06-12
Online
|
Throxx pointed out (more vigorously than I) just why the Denninger Proposal will never be adopted by the government and financial structure... at least not as currently constituted, with its current cast of players. There's far too much 'income' at stake, for all the relevant players.
Bert, your congress-bimbo was off to a real good start. You should ask her when the "end all tax breaks" would be pushed down to people making $50,000. My reply to an answer of "never" would be "I was born at night -- but not last night!" Bear in mind that some time ago, a major politician tried to justify increasing taxes on the grounds that a guy making $50k sees a million in 20 years!
"Don't tax you, don't tax me, Tax that other guy behind that tree!"
Then you discover that the gummint has a massive tree-planting program...
Tully
----------
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." (Samuel Adams)
|
Sunkeye
Posts: 190
Incept: 2010-12-14
|
jesus 8tch keereist i never thought i'd see anybuddy outflank karldee fedup outrage-wise but throxx i gotta say the man does have a plan addendum that catches the eye ! dam sam !
note to self: never cut this throxx dude off in traffic (j/k i'm a very courteous driver really)
|
Mike2007
Posts: 24
Incept: 2011-02-27
Oakland, CA
|
I agree with Throxx, and will dissect it:
Karl himself lists banks and institutions as the ones which would need to adhere to the One Dollar rule (which implies working enforcement). However he doesn't even mention limitations on the one "in control of the money supply, the federal government (specifically, Congress.)" Maybe for good reason, as even if there were such limitations (laws) in place, the government has the right to change those laws at will.
Therefore One Dollar can only provide a partial fix. Government overspending, indebtedness and monetization of said debt remain unimpeded by it.
|
Genesis
Posts: 130752
Incept: 2007-06-26
|
The people have recourse for the latter. It's called the ballot box.
People are entitled to be stupid, and are also subject to the consequences of their stupidity.
----------
I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
|
Duc888
Posts: 7368
Incept: 2008-11-06
CT, the UNconstitution State
|
Quote:It's called the ballot box. The freshmen Tea Party people who were elected and put into power come into mind. 100% corrupted and you've written a ticker regarding this. Spend a short amount of time swimmin' in the bowl and sooner rather than later you're covered in ****. It's depressing. Voting the right people into power sure seems like a waste of time.
----------
...burp
|
Anti
Posts: 4295
Incept: 2007-10-09
|
The interest on the one dollar of capital loans must come from the present money supply.... I think under this system interest becomes another category of material goods. So, as more loans are made, prices of other goods must fall.
If correct, that is very different from present behaviour.
----------
Health is better than health insurance http://gerson.org/ Over the past 60 years, thousands of people have used the Gerson Therapy to recover from so-called “incurable” diseases such as cancer, diabetes, heart disease and arthritis.
|
Lenguado
Posts: 1272
Incept: 2010-01-12
Orlando, FL
|
'BREATH' - NOT holding....
----------
I just realized... they aren't saying, "Keynesian Economics" they're saying "Kenyansian Economics". Grass Huts for everyone! Welcome to history’s first Double Dip Depression
|
Mikek31
Posts: 4357
Incept: 2009-05-04
Chicago
|
Throxx,
Good points. I'll give ya another vote, but for every "Agree" you got, I think Karl should get double. Here's why: perspective.
If even ONE of Karl's points were enforced as law, why, there'd be hell to pay and the "sky would be falling." Arguing over FDIC "insurance" simply doesn't do us much good at this point, so take it easy on the Chief. He's only here to help us common folk - same as you. Not saying we should agree with everything our benevolent dictator says; just saying to cut him some slack. Try not to be too brash with the bold.
We're all in this together.
----------
Intentional manipulation of markets is usually thought of as a crime, not a benefit, and should lead to indictments, not praise. -Karl
|
Rjazz117
Posts: 17799
Incept: 2007-09-11
|
Duc88 wrote..Voting the right people into power sure seems like a waste of time. Sure. The first batch didn't work...so quit. That'll fix it.
----------
“To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” Thomas Jefferson
|
Gates
Posts: 6275
Incept: 2008-01-29
Scottsdale
|
So the ballot box is questionable (being generous) - then we remove them, they KNOW this will eventually be the conclusion the unwashed masses come to so they pass a bunch of laws - on bi-partisan votes - to stop us from enforcing the Constitution that they SWORE to uphold... when does NFL football start... I'm tired of paying attention to the demise of our country...
|
Striped-pad
Posts: 70
Incept: 2009-03-15
UK
|
I think $1C is a reasonable system, and in fact the more I think about it the more I think that my initial belief that it would reduce the total quantity of investment is not correct. It would tend to reduce debt but increase investment through equity which is probably a very good thing. But I'd still be concerned by the government's monopoly on the creation of money. As Throxxofvron says, and as I think I've argued before, governments are not restraining banks from creating credit, so I don't expect they would restrain themselves if they could buy short-term popularity by actually printing money. And I find it almost inconceivable that they would reduce the quantity of money if GDP were to reduce, which I believe $1C calls for. That leaves you with the same problem as today of a majority of people voting for a living at the expense of the wealth creators. The problem lies in the population as a whole and the failure of legislators and the executive to stand up to their irrational demands. A couple of other points: Karl Denninger wrote..This {creation of credit backed only by promises} sleight-of-hand is in fact exactly identical in mathematical and economic impact to counterfeiting of the nation's currency You've mentioned this one before, and I think it's worth being accurate here. There is a difference. With counterfeiting, the responsible party creates fake money and spends it, gaining wealth equal to the amount printed. With unbacked credit emission, the responsible party at the maturity of the loan must acquire and destroy an equal amount of money to the amount created. So the amount gained is not equal to the principal, but only to the interest charged on the principal. And all of those loans are risking the bank's capital, so they're creating free leverage rather than free money. That's quite a major difference, I suggest, even if you still consider it inherently wrong that banks manage to obtain interest on credit many times their capital. Karl Denninger wrote..Simply put, for every dollar of alleged GDP there must be one of dollar of credit or currency with which to buy the goods and services produced. If I'm being picky, which I usually am - sorry, I'd say that for every v dollars of GDP, there must be a dollar of money of credit or currency, where v is the velocity of money. I think it's worth mentioning, because v is a factor. Simply creating billions of dollars and sticking them in excess reserves at the Fed, will have absolutely no effect whatsoever on the currency's purchasing power. Of course, if it ever does come out into genuine circulation, it does create the danger of significant inflation. One final question. One advantage of creating credit on demand is that the quantity of money reflects the needs of the time. There are presumably times when more money is needed e.g. shortly before Christmas. Would the government try to micromanage the quantity of money in circulation? Or would you get short-term low prices in non-Christmassy things just before Christmas, or high prices for everything for the remainder of the year? I'm not sure any of those options sounds very good.
|
Mannfm11
Posts: 3545
Incept: 2009-02-28
DFW, Tx
|
Flap, there wouldn't be a Fed in such a situation. Why would you need a Fed if there wasn't going to be bank credit? I doubt 30 year money would ever get cheaper. What I understand Karl to say is what I would say as well. That if you are going to lend money, you have to have the money. This prohibits more than one person having a claim to the same money, the reserves of the bank. There are no excess reserves, as there is much more owed by banks to depositors than they have.
In this kind of system, a loan would have to be taken out of someone's account. Thus, the person who owned the money would have to express the intention to give up his claim for his money over a period of time. The money would then be in anothers account. The person who made the loan would not only not have a claim to the money on a current basis, but would have to share in the losses if the loan wasn't repaid.
There are other effects to this. For one, government couldn't blow up its borrowing over the fact its bankers could create money out of thin air. Watch Europe if you don't understand this game. It clearly backfired on them, with the LTRO going to Spanish banks, to the Spanish government bond market and out of the country. Double ****ed. Bankers would have to lend money the same way the rest of us lend it, give it up and lose it.
----------
The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.---John Kenneth Galbraith
|
Pietertvl
Posts: 3591
Incept: 2007-12-05
NFA
|
Throxx said: "There are no Structures in place to allow the Citizenry to directly challenge the activity of Government Bureaucrats" And THAT, more than almost anything, is what must change. To that effect, I will keep promoting this idea, whenever I get the chance http://market-ticker.org/cgi-ticker/akcs...."I've been calling for a permanent 4th branch of govt here and elsewhere for several years now. 6 permanent special prosecutors, 2 each from the major parties and another 2 "independents", elected by the nation at large, each with the authority to investigate and prosecute individually. Even better, perhaps, if DOJ is removed entirely from the executive branch, and run by this group."
----------
"All the perplexities, confusion and distresses in America arise not from defects in the constitution or confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, as much from downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit, and circulation." ~ John Adams
|
Throxxofvron
Posts: 10325
Incept: 2009-02-17
Hyper-Speculative Psycho-Facsistic Parabolic Blow-Off
|
TO BE CLEAR: I am entirely in favor of Karl's ingenious ODOC concept and have stated such previously in other threads.
I must argue vehemently against the planned provision for continued FDIC Insurance as it would be both: 1. superfluous/unnecessary if Regulation was effective. 2. the Costs for the FDIC Insurance & to pay for the FDIC Bureaucrooks would NOT be borne by Asset Stripping the Management of Failed Institutions and by proper diminishment of recovery rates for the Holders of Bonds/Equity within the Capital Structure; but, by Other more prudent and honest Financiers/Bankers.
I would instead STOP Socializing these Losses and instead strip Management and move on to the Capital Structure.
Karl keeps talking about Management and Investor Risk being off-loaded onto the Public in various ways and I believe that the FDIC is one of them.
The COSTS of Administering the FDIC are NOT borne by Banks or Bankers or Bank Investors: it IS borne by Bank Depositors/Customers
IF the System functioned -WHY should You and I pay to employ an entirely unnecessary FDIC Bureaucrookcy?
IF Prompt Corrective Action is not taken, IF Collusion and back-dating by Regulators is discovered, etc.: 1. HANG the Regulator that DEFRAUDED the Government by agreeing to take money to do a job and then doing otherwise. 2. Asset Strip the Management. 3. Cram down the Investors as per the Capital Structure and let them sue the **** out of the Individual Regulators and Bank Management that made the decisions that allowed their funds to be squandered/stolen.
Pietertvl:
Not bad. I'll ponder this idea a bit and see what I can come up with... Ever read anything by Oliver E. Williamson?
----------
DIONYSUS: " Thou hast no knowledge of the life thou art leading; thy very existence is now a mystery to thee. " -from 'The Bacchantes' By Euripides “During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.” -George Orwell
|
Lumpeninvestor
Posts: 2341
Incept: 2007-10-16
98072, USSA
|
I think the FDIC paired with Glass-Steagal was ok. It was meant to be a highly visible and "simple" confidence booster for depositors (IMHO) at a time when confidence had ben shaken. When G-S was gutted, it became a vehicle for fraud upon the people.
----------
Distributing insolvency only destroys the last remaining islands of solvency in a bankrupt world. - Charles Hugh Smith 8/23/2012
|