Samuel Williams could soon become a poster child for concealed carry. Or rather a poster senior citizen.
Williams is being hailed as a hero this week after he sprung into action on Friday to thwart an armed robbery at an internet cafe. Williams was present when two masked thugs walked into the Palms Internet Cafe in Marion County, Florida. One of the men was brandishing a gun while the other had a bat. They started ordering patrons around and one smashes a computer screen. That’s when Williams took action.
He shot 'em. That is, the presence of a gun in the hands of an ordinary citizen turned what was a couple of thugs robbing a business and its patrons, and which might have ended up with some of the patrons, the business' employees or both laying dead in a pool of blood into two thugs in jail with some extra holes in their bodies. The thugs, for their part, complained that "they weren't going to shoot anyone."
That's why they were waving a gun around, right?
Incidentally, for the person on the "business end" of a firearm it's not possible to know whether (1) the gun will work or (2) most of the time, if it's loaded. If you can see the rifling a fair (and lawful) presumption is that the person pointing it at you is prepared to kill you -- period. If the person doing the pointing is engaged in an unlawful act at the time they've already declared their willingness to ignore the law and thus it is fair to assume they're willing to commit homicide as well.
Scratch two thugs from the street, for a while anyway. Unfortunately our "Just-US" system will likely let these two jackals out far before it should.
Florida, and indeed the rest of the country, should adopt not just "must-issue" concealed carry but rather Constitutional Carry.
The clause in the Second Amendment is very clear: shall not be infringed. If I wish to carry a firearm, openly or concealed, I have the constitutionally-protected right to do so. Note that the Constitution doesn't give me that right, it protects it. I have that right as a consequence of the unalienable right to life and liberty, which are not the government's to give. If someone intends to take either from me by force I have the right to resist.
That Government often infringes rights should not be surprising. It does. In fact, that seems to be what government does best! But this does not make it right -- it just means that they have more guns and more goons, and the people have not reached their tolerance point.
Nonetheless, we occasionally get very-public object lessons of what the law should be and should protect.
This is one of them.
Unfortunately we also get negative object lessons. Like this one:
According to a Lake County Sheriff's Office spokesman, two deputies showed up at Scott's unit around 2 a.m. Sunday morning. They were looking for attempted murder suspect Jonathan Brown. Deputies said they found Brown's motorcycle in front of Scott's apartment and believed Brown was inside.
They said they knocked on the door and when Scott opened the door, he had a gun in his hand.Deputies said Scott had the gun pointed in their direction, so one of the deputies opened fire, killing Scott.
FOX 35 news has also learned the deputies did not announce they were law enforcement when they knocked. They said they didn't announce themselves out of fear the suspect would run. A deputy spokesman said it's not required to announce themselves in these situations.
Here's the problem -- the man they sought wasn't in the apartment. By definition an apartment building has a lot of residences served by a common parking lot.
The police were not in "hot pursuit"; they didn't see the alleged perpetrator they were seeking going into the unit, for example. They could have sought a warrant, they could have sought to confirm the man was in the apartment first, they could have staked out the building with a perimeter and binoculars so he couldn't leave without them knowing about it and waited him out.
Instead they decided to knock on someone's door at 2:00 AM without announcing that they were law enforcement officers and when the person who answered it did so while armed, a perfectly reasonable thing to do when someone knocks on your door at 2:00 AM unannounced, they shot him.
So who's in the wrong here? It's not an easy question to answer. Clearly there wasn't intent to shoot the resident, who was not the target of the investigation. But there were also decisions taken by the police in this instance that were unnecessary and ultimately proved wrong in that their "suspicion" that the man was inside the unit was unsupported by anything particular -- remember, this is the case of "which door is he behind, if any?" given that all they had was a vehicle registered to him in the parking lot.
We can and must demand that those who hold themselves out as professionals, including police officers, live to and operate under a higher standard of conduct than ordinary citizens. If I hold myself out as an Internet Security professional (and I do) I'm expected to know more about anti-virus programs, firewalls and similar things than the common person. My standard of conduct that meets "reasonable and due care" is thus higher than yours, if you're simply someone using a computer to write a business document or surf the Internet.
The same standards must apply to professional law enforcement officers. Carrying a firearm is a serious responsibility and doing so as part of one's job even more so. When a police officer or department makes a decision to bang on someone's door at 2:00 AM unannounced they must accept the fact that the occupants, if they are not criminals, are well-within their rights to assume that the person doing the banging has a high probability of being a criminal, not a cop. This doesn't give the occupant the right to shoot, but it sure does give him or her the right to answer the door prepared to defend himself.
The professional -- in this case the cop -- is the one with the higher duty of care and standard of performance.
Based on the information presented thus far I believe manslaughter charges are in order for the officers in question, and that the Lake County Sheriff's department (along with the rest of the Sheriffs in Florida) should give serious consideration to changing policy such that "inquiries" of this sort should be reserved for circumstances where other alternatives, such as staking out the location, are unavailable due to exigent circumstance (e.g. a known or suspected active hostage situation.)
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There was a reason Andy had Barney keep his one bullet in his pocket instead of his gun. This incident is a lot worse than the Zimmerman case, maybe by 4 or 5 degrees. If I was living in an apartment where the police were likely going to be chasing attempted murder suspects, I might answer the door with a gun myself. If I was neighborhood watch guy in a complex where it was clear a bunch of thugs were not only doing spot steal (spot at day, steal at night), I might be armed as well.
If I could predict the result of these 2 incidents, I would take a chance and say the guy who shot the 2 thugs will have to hire a lawyer, defend himself and eventually be absolved while the 2 deputies will be put on suspension, any of their legal fees paid and let off on mistake.
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The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.---John Kenneth Galbraith
I am not huge on the gun debate and I have not done the home work on states that allow you to carry but it simply occurs to me that it should be dangerous to be a criminal and safe to be a citizen. I don't know anyones story, where they came from or what they think but if you make the choice to be a criminal expect it to be harder and more dangerous than working for a living.
Murder and manslaughter by police. Never open your door with a weapon in hand. If the cops are there, you can bet they will start shooting. You will be dead right. If you hear a noise or knock or whatever, if you open the door, do not have a weapon in hand. They may be going to check out the guy next door. Also do not wear a uniform to an occupy or tea party event, that seems to inflame them into shooting gas grenades directly at your head.
That is why people pay to live in neighborhoods where the 1) there are fewer noises at night, and 2) the police are less likely to harass your fellow affluent neighbors.
More and more perps are drawn to "public safety jobs" with their outrageous pensions. And they have psychological tests, that reject anyone if they are "too nice".
That's it! This post just made me want to apply for a CCW in Alabama.
I hate having to do it. But here is the first line on the application:
Quote:
I hereby apply for a license to carry a revolver or pistol concealed on my person or in a vehicle for a period of ONE YEAR for the following reason:
My response is: I am invoking my second amendment right
I want to say that "I don't need a reason; I have a right"
The other thing that is*****ing me off is that there is a payment required once the permit is granted. WTF! And it is only for ONE YEAR??? Have their been challenges to this kind of crap?
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"Are you sure you can't remember?" "I'm sure I can't remember" ~ Ben Bernake 25 Jun 2009
Bagbalm
Posts: 4262
Incept: 2009-03-19
Just North of Detroit
I would not answer a 2 am knock. We have two cell phones and an e-mail address. Nobody we want to speak to will be at out door at 2 am without contacting us. If somebody breaks the door they will be met with high powered large caliber rifle fire not a silly little pistol. Won't matter if they are wearing a clown suit, body armor, crook, creep or cop. It can be the pope for all I care. I'm deaf so you can be yelling any foolishness you want and I still own your ass once you step over the threshold.
I'm glad the old man did what he did. If someone shows a gun and is committing a crime then they deserve to be shot - whether they intend to shoot, the gun is unloaded, its a bb gun, etc.(actually by just pointing the gun at someone here in FL its 3 years mandatory) I think the old man was completely justified and the FL law agrees. I seriously doubt he'll have any legal trouble.
Murder and manslaughter by police. Never open your door with a weapon in hand. If the cops are there, you can bet they will start shooting. You will be dead right. If you hear a noise or knock or whatever, if you open the door, do not have a weapon in hand. They may be going to check out the guy next door.
Also, be sure to have a shoeshine kit and a clean shine rag handy. Open the door on your knees, lick their boots right away (assuring them that you just brushed your teeth in order to keep their boots clean), and give them both a nice shine.
Oh, and if either of them need to "release some tension" with your wife or daughters, do invite them in and hold their boots while they're exercising "prima nocta".
And make a nice pot of fresh coffee for them, peasant bitch...
Say! It's my 1776th post! :-)
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==== If it's true that "assault weapons" are "weapons of war" and don't belong on the streets of America, why do the police need them? Who are the police at war with?
Donethat: More and more perps are drawn to "public safety jobs" with their outrageous pensions. And they have psychological tests, that reject anyone if they are "too nice".
Wrong. They do indeed do extensive background checks and psychological evaluations for anyone applying for a law enforcement job. They take this stuff seriously. Any hint of a problem and it's "Thank you for applying, but get the F outta here." I have a family member in LE and have seen up close the original and ongoing scrutiny given to applicatants and officers. Not saying some don't slip through, or more likely develop problems later, but to suggest that LE isn't as careful as possible in keeping nut cases out of uniform is just plain wrong.
Having said all of that, the two deputies in Florida made every mistake possible and will probably face serious charges, probably manslaughter as KD said, but maybe worse. You simply don't knock on a door, unannounced, at 2 AM, especially if you believe there is a murder suspect behind it. You just don't do it. I think they're toast.
Avianphlu
Posts: 3960
Incept: 2008-12-03
Ulster NY
the whole "consitutional carry" got me to think...how do senators, congress critters, judges, cops, etc reconcile their oath of office (uphold the constitution both federal and state) and enforce concealed weapons laws which are in direct conflict with the oath the swore to uphold?
Lowbeyond
Posts: 16930
Incept: 2008-02-11
CO aka West NJ/East CA
You are right Nomennescio. They are not "nut cases" It is intentional
Nomennescio wrote..
Having said all of that, the two deputies in Florida made every mistake possible and will probably face serious charges, probably manslaughter as KD said, but maybe worse. You simply don't knock on a door, unannounced, at 2 AM, especially if you believe there is a murder suspect behind it. You just don't do it. I think they're toast.
I doubt it. But even if you are correct a **** ton of good it will do as the guy is DEAD
@Ulsterirish. Once you realize that the oath swearing etc is just Theater For You, its much easier to reconcile.
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Maybe it was a birdy bread-bomber from the future?!
Aztrader
Posts: 6650
Incept: 2007-09-10
Scottsdale, AZ
Online
If you watched the video, the prosecutor could easily say the old dude overstepped his bounds when he was still firing as the thugs ran out the door. The liberal left will say that they already surrendered and he kept shooting.
I personally wish he were a better shot and the system wouldn't have to deal with these thugs. There have been other instances of flash mobs invading businesses and either stealing or destroying property. I am contacting these businesses and introducing them to the nastiest pepper spray they can buy in the event this happens again. These thugs (liberal version "bored Teen") deserve some pain for the costs they have forced on the business owner. The economy is very slow for most retailers and the last thing they need is these animals attacking their businesses out of bordom. This is just starting. Mobs will grow larger and larger and there won't be any cops around to protect the innocent. The feds will continue to attack anyone that uses a gun outside of their own home and before you know it, the real shooting will start. You poke a bee hive too many times and eventually you will get stung.
Otiswild
Posts: 5627
Incept: 2009-03-09
Inside you, the force is!
Quote:
That is why people pay to live in neighborhoods where the 1) there are fewer noises at night, and 2) the police are less likely to harass your fellow affluent neighbors.
Seclusion and relative inaccessibility are among my house search criteria, as well as having enough fenceable space for a few dogs to play and patrol in while I'm away at work.
Quote:
I would not answer a 2 am knock. We have two cell phones and an e-mail address. Nobody we want to speak to will be at out door at 2 am without contacting us. If somebody breaks the door they will be met with high powered large caliber rifle fire not a silly little pistol.
Defense in depth is also advisable.. Dogs, then pistol, then retreat to rifle. Problem with rifles in the home is overpenetration, particularly if you have kids or live in a modern sheetrock home. I have Gold Dot 9mm +P+ for self-defense, which should cause adequate damage to meat while not going through too many walls or windows (currently have to worry about nearby neighbors)..
Quote:
I'm glad the old man did what he did. If someone shows a gun and is committing a crime then they deserve to be shot - whether they intend to shoot, the gun is unloaded, its a bb gun, etc.(actually by just pointing the gun at someone here in FL its 3 years mandatory) I think the old man was completely justified and the FL law agrees. I seriously doubt he'll have any legal trouble.
I just wish he had a bit more range time, so his shots would have been more lethal. Woulda saved the taxpayer quite a bit of money and hassle if those dirtbag crims were dead on the scene. But you can't always get what you want..
Manslaughter charges? While these two dumb as a box of rocks cops are out on "administrative leave" (i.e., paid vacation), the entire Lake County prosecutors office is currently dedicated to the task of justifying the shooting. Manslaughter charges for a cop? In Florida? You're joking, right?
I live in Lake County. Recently, two deputies thought it would be funny to speed at 90 mph on Hwy 27 in my town so they could play a joke on a fellow officer. They were fired, but no traffic charges were filed against them.
Vernonb
Posts: 398
Incept: 2009-06-03
State College, PA
Quote:
Having said all of that, the two deputies in Florida made every mistake possible and will probably face serious charges, probably manslaughter as KD said, but maybe worse. You simply don't knock on a door, unannounced, at 2 AM, especially if you believe there is a murder suspect behind it. You just don't do it. I think they're toast.
The cops knocked on the door. If the murderer was there did they really think he'd play nice and just answer the door with a smile if they didn't announce themselves. My own sense of self-preservation would not allow me to do something so stupid!
Instead an innocent man is now dead.
One a side note - American citizens are more likely to be killed "accidently" by poorly trained 'law' enforcement with firearms than by fellow citizens. Police also have a bad habit of shooting themselves ans fellow officers.
Want to stop accidental gun deaths - disarm the majority of police! This would be a real game change and attitude adjuster. I'm sure most of these overbearing idiots would simply quit on the spot because they lose their prized 'intimidation' factor. We can also than the NRA for the further militarization of the police.
Isn't it time citizens started to be treated like citizens? Police used to be 'officers of the peace."
As far as the right to carry - it should not be limited to firearms as so many states and municipalities try to do.
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"The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.” -Alber Camus (1913-1960)
I am very glad the old man did what he did, but was it necessary to fire off so many damn shots? There is protection and there is unnecessary risk, and with his aim, this leans more towards unnecessary risk after the first or second shot.
but was it necessary to fire off so many damn shots?
ABSOLUTELY. First off his adrenaline was kicking in. Secondly, I would want to make sure they were not regrouping just outside the door. IMO, until they are down and out, they are still a threat.
I am very glad the old man did what he did, but was it necessary to fire off so many damn shots? There is protection and there is unnecessary risk, and with his aim, this leans more towards unnecessary risk after the first or second shot.
Life isn't a video game or a movie. You don't have the luxury of neat little well-aimed headshots that are guaranteed to drop an enemy in one shot when dealing with a real fight and real ballistics against real armed human beings.
Guns aren't magic, aimed fire is damn near impossible in CQB with adrenaline going, and human beings take a lot more damage to stop moving than a single concealable handgun round can provide unless you make an incredibly lucky first shot.
As for the cops who murdered that man, those guys will get paid administrative leave and be back on the force soon enough. The worst that'll happen is a civil lawsuit that the taxpayers will have to pay. This is not an unusual story in the US today, sadly.
I would say if you live in Lake County Florida and have to answer your door at 2:00 AM, start shooting the instant you see a gun and keep shooting till there's nothing left to shoot at. Because it doesn't matter if they're cops or not, they're going to kill you anyway. Kind of boils down to shoot first and let God sort them out, or stand there in your own home breaking no laws looking stupid while they shoot you to death. I imagine the lawsuit will be for enough to put a serious dent in the county coffers.
My tea leaves are showing that one perp who took a shot after being outside the door will file a personal lawsuit against the good citizen.. you watch. Good thing our citizen did not terminate thug on the sidewalk- fsa kin would've owned his estate in this crazy world.
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Since it costs a lot to win, and even more to lose, You and me bound to spend some time wonder'n what to choose. Goes to show, you don't ever know, watch each card you play and play it slow...Wait until that deal come round, don't you let that deal go down, no no. Garcia/Hunter.
Do unalienable rights exist? I'm pretty sure that 100 million corpses that Stalin, Mao, and the Kims produced say otherwise. Rights are only a social construct and only exist to the extent that people are WILLING and ABLE to ENFORCE them.
