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| Gary Johnson On PPACA Decision: Close! in forum [Market-Ticker]
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Alchemista2
Posts: 89
Incept: 2008-09-25
DC
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I was worried this would give government limitless power too, but on reading more the SCOTUS did make a distinction between a tax and a penalty. They said the government can't tax a behavior so much that it would be unbearable for someone to choose not to do the behavior. The SCOTUS said the boundaries of what a tax and penalty is will be subject to debate.
So, while it's true that the government does now have power to tax any non-behavior (bad enough on its own), it's not limitless in how much they can tax/penalize. You could probably
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Flappingeagle
Posts: 1227
Incept: 2011-04-14
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If Johnson would take a hard look around and revise some of his policies he would be able to make a really good showing in November. Karl what you are saying is right on the money and we need a candidate who will get out there and explain the WHY of why healthcare costs so much.
There are a lot of people in the USA who are really fed up with the way things are and the way things are going, they just need a candidate who will lay out a plan that they can look at, identify with, and say "yes that makes sense, you are saying that 2+2=4 and that's how I see it as well".
Flap
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Here are my predictions for everyone to see: S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu. "You can't build a house of cards on a shaking table." - Tony Johns The January 2015 AMZN put at $130 (cost $4.25) will be a winner.
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Alchemista2
Posts: 89
Incept: 2008-09-25
DC
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I also thought this ruling made the government's power to tax limitless, but the SCOTUS did differentiate between a tax and a penalty. The distinction was made that the government cannot tax a behavior (or non-behavior) so much that it makes it unbearable for an individual to choose their behavior.
While it's bad enough that the government can tax anything now, it's not limitless yet on how much they can tax. The SCOTUS even said that there will be debate on the boundary between tax and penalty.
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Cmalbatros
Posts: 202
Incept: 2008-05-07
Woodstock, GA
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The only regulation that works - is failure. Remember, the value/price of stocks and shares fall as well as plummet.
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Jal
Posts: 512
Incept: 2009-03-25
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Quote:... put forward policies that will actually halt the destruction of our economy and government by the medical monster, we'll be making real progress. I disagree ... the solution would destroy our economy and government.
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Paulanderson
Posts: 104
Incept: 2010-09-26
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The part of all of this that confuses me is - what's new? Hasn't the federal government been taxing behavior it doesn't like for years? Isn't the mortgage interest deduction a tax on people who don't own homes? Isn't the marriage "tax" sort of the same thing for people of a certain income who want to marry? How is this new "tax" a further power grab? To me, it looks like more of the same.
I'm very surprised that SCOTUS felt like they could take a broken law and re-write it. That part is actually shocking to me. But I'm not a bit surprised that the government felt like it had this power, because it's been exercising it through the tax code for years - only no one was complaining so much (everyone takes the mortgage interest deduction, right?) when they thought it was benefiting them.
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Let me be the first to welcome our new blythe masters.
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Infidel
Posts: 5463
Incept: 2007-08-27
between here and there
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Gary Johnson is about as relevant as Pat "If elected I will win" Paulson
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"DON'T BELIEVE THEM, DON'T FEAR THEM, DON'T ASK ANYTHING OF THEM." -ALEXANDER SOLZHENITSYN.
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Tsherry
Posts: 193
Incept: 2008-12-09
Spokane WA
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There is nothing wrong in DC that a strategically placed meteor wouldn't take care of.
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Bagbalm
Posts: 4259
Incept: 2009-03-19
Just North of Detroit
Online
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Alch' - "The distinction was made that the government cannot tax a behavior (or non-behavior) so much that it makes it unbearable for an individual to choose their behavior."
Well, Alch' the government finds it 'bearable' to throw old people out of their home without any regard for where they will go if they can't keep the property tax up. So don't expect any particular gracious benevolence from them.
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Standby
Posts: 1004
Incept: 2009-08-06
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Depraved is a word that kept coming to mind yesterday with the reaction of Obamacare supporters. Geez, like animals. I feel like I might be part of the buffet.
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Noodleman
Posts: 2391
Incept: 2008-11-01
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Personally I don't think Gary Johnson is very far removed from the other establishment candidates in the race for the POTUS. Gary nibbles at the edges of what Karl says but refuses to take a full bite. Let's face it. The healthcare system in America is not designed to serve the ordinary US citizen. It's designed to serve the oligarchs. And those who lick oligarch boots or who are oligarchs themselves will do whatever is necessary to maintain the status quo. Although Obamacare is heralded as 'change' all it really does is transfer more wealth from the ordinary working guy to the oligarchs. How in the F does 'access' to HC improve society when all it effectively does is punish the producer and reward the parasite by funneling more money to the health care providers and their shyster brokers? Remember how 'managed care' was going to save our healthcare system? heh. Do any of you know a medical tech? Ask him how many unnecessary tests are still performed with no practical purpose other than to pad the bottom line.
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"Ammunition beats persuasion when you are looking for freedom." Will Rogers, 4 Nov 1879 - 15 Aug 1935
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Mannfm11
Posts: 3545
Incept: 2009-02-28
DFW, Tx
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I kind of liked Johnson in the Republican debates. That said, he is still a politician. Plus, he probably doesn't belong as the Libertarian candidate. That said, he had some exposure on the big stage and probably gives the L's extra exposure. We need to make a showing this time. Politics are going to change in the US big time during this time frame and hopefully they will change toward freedom and personal responsibility and away from big brother, big military and big medicine. That said, the true purpose of this post was to link an article from the big Daddy Libertarian, Murray Rothbard. http://mises.org/daily/6099/Government-M....Rothbard hammers government and insurance in medicine. He is talking in 1990's terms when he talks about cost and I am sure he would not only roll over in his grave if he knew what it costs today, but he wouldn't even be surprised. Point being we have done nothing about it in the ensuing 16 years or more since he wrote this. I had read this before, but the AMA runs US medicine and Rockefeller cartelized alopathic medicine in the US 100 years ago. We are being ****ed by a cartel. Insurance made the costs bearable for the insured and a honey pot for the industry. I had recognized this fact years ago. There is no competition in medicine and no standardization. Rothbards article is worth reading, as it frames much of the problem very well. I think it follows what Karl writes in this subject enough that one validates the other.
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The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.---John Kenneth Galbraith
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Goforbroke
Posts: 5346
Incept: 2007-11-30
Just call me 'Comrade'
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Quote:allowing her to bill not only her care but the $2 million NICU charge to you ... with no maximum lifetime limitation.This simply will not work. A totally unrealistic promise is being made, and I would bet that there is absolutely no intention on following through with that promise. I forsee active death panels at hospitals to decide when enough is enough in any particular case. The American people have (yet again) been suckered into something which is too good to be true, and which ultimately will not come to fruition.
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We have met the enemy and it is us. -- Pogo
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Debtpie
Posts: 534
Incept: 2009-12-17
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Standby says: "Depraved is a word that kept coming to mind yesterday with the reaction of Obamacare supporters. Geez, like animals. I feel like I might be part of the buffet."
What you witnessed is not depraved animals at a buffet; what is on display is desperation because the current system locks out 10's of millions from basic care to say the least.
These people end up dependent upon the government because there is no other choice. Their income cannot support the insurance payments and their job (if they have one) doesn't provide it.
Example: The CEO of Starbucks earns $30,000,000 a year...his typical Barista earns $15,000 a year. Why so low? By keeping their hours down, the company doesn't have to provide health insurance. Yet it can still run around telling the world that it's employees (that work enough hours) have health insurance.
Result: There is no way these Barista's can afford $500 to $1000 a month for a health insurance plan..so they end up either showing up in the emergency room and then not paying...or they go on the government dole through Medicaid or some other state program.
It's a big subject, but in my opinion we've got to end the employer/employee/insurance relationship in the top 10 list of things to do.
Health insurance should be like all other insurance; purchased on an individual basis.
As flawed as ObamaCare is; it gives these people hope that they will be able to receive care and that is why they are so jubilant that it's still alive.
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A Leader, or an Opportunist? "A leader has the capacity of vision, the ability to see where things are headed before people in general see those things." Mitt Romney --- DebtPie's definition: a leader decides where "things" should head and "leads" us there.
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Genesis
Posts: 130762
Incept: 2007-06-26
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No it won't.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Debtpie
Posts: 534
Incept: 2009-12-17
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Genesis Says "No it won't."
If you're responding to my post...my reply is the current system has definitely locked them out...so at least they "think/feel" they have a chance with ObamaCare.
The Romney/Republican plan? Well, we'll have to elect them to find out what's in it.
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A Leader, or an Opportunist? "A leader has the capacity of vision, the ability to see where things are headed before people in general see those things." Mitt Romney --- DebtPie's definition: a leader decides where "things" should head and "leads" us there.
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Wis/min
Posts: 5364
Incept: 2009-08-14
On the border
Online
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Debtpie, How do you propose to fund the promises of Obamacare?
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Genesis
Posts: 130762
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Obamacare leaves you with a simple economic decision - drop health care coverage for yourself and your dependents, pocket the money (and pay the "fine"/tax)
Same for businesses. It is FAR CHEAPER to pay the fine/tax than provide the insurance now.
So what happens? Only sick people buy insurance because you can't be penalized for doing this. That means that insurance will quite-quickly cost 10x what it does now, because it's like buying insurance for your car AFTER you wreck it.
That in turn will mean that nobody will be ABLE TO AFFORD the insurance, which in turn will collapse the system.
What's left?
Well now, that's the interesting question, isn't it?
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Goforbroke
Posts: 5346
Incept: 2007-11-30
Just call me 'Comrade'
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What's left is rationing. Even though there is no penalty for preexisting conditions, even though there is no lifetime maximum, even though there is "free" preventative care, there will have to be rationing, as put into practice by exceedingly long wait times. That's something no one is talking about; there's nothing in this bill which specifies the timeframe in which care must be administered, and that's where they've got "you."
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We have met the enemy and it is us. -- Pogo
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Rjazz117
Posts: 17799
Incept: 2007-09-11
Online
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Debtpie wrote.....my reply is the current system has definitely locked them out... No they're not, by your own admission: Debtpie wrote....so they end up either showing up in the emergency room and then not paying...or they go on the government dole through Medicaid or some other state program. Do you not read what you post? 
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“To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” Thomas Jefferson
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Marcustullius
Posts: 202
Incept: 2010-06-12
Online
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RJazz, I think that Debtpie means "the current system has definitely locked them [the $15k/year workers] out ...of any affordable & useful health insurance". But perhaps clarification should come from that corner.
Tully
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"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." (Samuel Adams)
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Mannfm11
Posts: 3545
Incept: 2009-02-28
DFW, Tx
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My response to debt pie is those $15,000 a year people are locked out of the luxury car market, the luxury home market, the high dollar restuarant market and so on. They don't have the deductible. GOVERNMENT CREATED THIS MONSTER. It was created to make the population dependent and to channel a fortune to the medical industry. This is merely to keep the bubble inflating. Ever think that indoor plumbing, flush toilets and refrigerators have done more to extend the lives of people than everything medicine has done, sans basic anti-biotics combined? You might read the link to Rothbards post.
My mother went to Europe with my niece. They visited the family of someone my niece had met over here in Norway. The friends mother had a bad gallbladder. She could not get an operation. Norway is floating on oil and the resulting prosperity, but the fantastic socialistic medical system wouldn't solve this woman's problem until it because a threat to her life. If you have never had gallbladder problems, they are much akin to having one of your nuts in a vise, turning the handle back and forth, tightening and loosening. Ruptured, they will finish your ass. The operation is almost day surgury in the US.
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The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.---John Kenneth Galbraith
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Rjazz117
Posts: 17799
Incept: 2007-09-11
Online
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Marcustullius...yes...clarification SHOULD come from Debtpie...I'm still waiting.
Oh, AND: those making that little money are still not "locked out"...they can choose NOT to buy an iPhone with $60/mo. plan, "bling" of any kind, a flashy ride, $100 gym shoes, steak/lobster/filets for dinner every night, $200 in drinks every Friday/Saturday night with their gang at the local watering hole...and instead, purchase...wait for it...HEALTH INSURANCE.
Priorities, folks...that is what this (from the consumer end) has always been about.
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“To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” Thomas Jefferson
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