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| Another Fool Removes All Doubt (Edward Conrad) in forum [Market-Ticker]
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Mistermagoo
Posts: 48
Incept: 2012-04-04
Banned
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<sarcasm> So, are you implying that Mittens won't do anything to stop this and will just keep on keepin' on? </sarcasm>
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Bertdilbert
Posts: 2666
Incept: 2008-12-22
CA
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I guess this is where we move from bond vigilantes to saver vigilantes. Mittens should punish savers if elected president....
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Dear Euroland: Relax, Germany has a plan for your money!
Political Capital Defined: We are out of money but will tax our citizens for whatever it takes to "SAVE" the Euro.
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Genesis
Posts: 130798
Incept: 2007-06-26
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 Uh, yeah.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Michelj
Posts: 26
Incept: 2009-12-02
Netherlands
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Oh this is strong; savers are the problem eh. Savings is money for which work is already done but not yet spent. Yeah that's very "idle". This is pure propaganda. Anyway how much savings compared to assets has a bank nowadays? couple of %? Less? Would that means they, in case of default, their assets would have lost >97% of its value.
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Mayorquimby
Posts: 13909
Incept: 2008-09-18
The Archaic Past
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Karl, you rock.
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They who wish to hurt you, work within the law. - Morrissey
Gold is theft.
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Etz
Posts: 13891
Incept: 2007-06-26
LA
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I pity the poor banksters who can't do "God's work" because of evil risk-averse savers.
[****_you]
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Legal chicanery and beneficent darkness are the banker's stoutest allies - F.Pecora.
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Peterm99
Posts: 4995
Incept: 2009-03-21
SoCal
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On a positive note, punishing savers by going from .005% earnings for savers to .001% is not one heck of a lot of punishment. If that was all the punishment that gov't/Fed policies result in, I'd be an extremely happy camper.
The problem is all the other forms of punishment they can and do impose.
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". . . the Constitution has died, the economy welters in irreversible decline, we have perpetual war, all power lies in the hands of the executive, the police are supreme, and a surveillance beyond Orwell’s imaginings falls into place." - Fred Reed
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Digitlman
Posts: 335
Incept: 2011-03-04
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"Price-insensitive, risk-averse savers hoard rather than invest their savings"
Hey, *******. Let me tell you what a Bank is - a place to keep my money so that it cannot be stolen. That's it. Otherwise, I'd have a mound of cash under my bed. If I earn a little interest on keeping it there, then great.
"insist on the right to withdraw their funds 'on-demand.'"
Yeah. It's my ****ing money. I have the right to get it any time I want. If you say I don't, then I'll put it elsewhere.
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Bertdilbert
Posts: 2666
Incept: 2008-12-22
CA
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Heh Karl, maybe you shouldn't be laughing. There is the president for this evil savers withholding money.
"The order was rationalized on the grounds that hard times had caused "hoarding" of gold, stalling economic growth and making the depression worse."
Back then it was the gold vigilantist. Savers could likewise be blamed for moving their money from banks otherwise known as "recognized and customary channels of trade" as stated in Presidential Executive Order 6102.
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Dear Euroland: Relax, Germany has a plan for your money!
Political Capital Defined: We are out of money but will tax our citizens for whatever it takes to "SAVE" the Euro.
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Winstonsmith2009
Posts: 1060
Incept: 2009-08-05
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Karl,
Please provide a link to the column where you first presented or most effectively explained One Dollar of Capital and its advantages. I've searched for it using your site search field and haven't found one where it is the primary issue discussed. I've searched for it because I've wanted to include a link to an explanation of One Dollar of Capital in other forums. I know it's a simple concept, but I'd like to point to a column that explains it as the primary topic so potential readers aren't turned off by the length of a column that covers other things besides ODC.
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Genesis
Posts: 130798
Incept: 2007-06-26
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Bozonian
Posts: 19889
Incept: 2007-09-01
Saratoga Springs, New York
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"They" don't care.
The 450 million rounds of ammo and thousands of bulletproof, portable checkpoints, the NDAA, the drones, all tell us they know a collapse is coming. All they are doing is trying to hold it together as long as possible.
When it finally comes SURVIVAL/PEOPLE will drop precipitously, civil disorder will be the norm and THAT will solve the problem as a large portion of the population, those who cannot survive without government assistance, stop surviving. That will bring the SURIVIVAL/PEOPLE ratio back into a manageable range.
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Forget about blaming, fighting with, or crediting other people. The only real challenge in life, is with yourself. -- Me
Everything I write is my opinion and not to be considered proven fact. Nothing I write should be considered financial advice.
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Checkthisout
Posts: 167
Incept: 2010-10-01
Cary, NC
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I'd really love your opinions on this. What do you think is more likely, bank runs where most people get pennies on the dollar or simply a bank holiday in order to replace the national currency during which people still only get (new) pennies on their (old) dollars
Obviously either one can affect how one prepares...
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There are no gun free zones where free men tread.
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Duc888
Posts: 7368
Incept: 2008-11-06
CT, the UNconstitution State
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Quote:Price-insensitive, risk-averse savers hoard rather than invest their savings and insist on the right to withdraw their funds "on-demand. Ok, seriously, I DIDN'T just read that.
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...burp
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Peterm99
Posts: 4995
Incept: 2009-03-21
SoCal
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Checkthisout -
I'd expect that we'll all get 100 pennies on the dollar out of our accounts, up to FDIC limits, within a matter of days, a couple of weeks, at most. (Of course, all bets are off for truly catastrophic events, e.g., big-time Yellowstone caldera event, tsunami wipes out entire E coast for dozens of miles inland, etc.)
Naturally, we may be very disappointed in the purchasing power of those 100 pennies for some time, until the deflationary depression gets into high gear.
IMO, a new national currency (other than going from FRNs to Treasury notes on a 1:1 basis) is highly unlikely, as it doesn't really solve anything that new legislation or an Executive Order can't solve, as only a tiny fraction of all money is in the form of currency.
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". . . the Constitution has died, the economy welters in irreversible decline, we have perpetual war, all power lies in the hands of the executive, the police are supreme, and a surveillance beyond Orwell’s imaginings falls into place." - Fred Reed
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Bozonian
Posts: 19889
Incept: 2007-09-01
Saratoga Springs, New York
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Collapse IS the solution. Charles Hugh Smith nails it. This is what's going to happen so best be ready to take care of yourself. We're like a sprawling family bickering over the inheritance: we'll keep arguing over who deserves what until the inheritance is gone. That will trigger one final outburst of finger-pointing, resentment and betrayal, and then we'll go do something else to get by.http://www.zerohedge.com/news/guest-post....
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Forget about blaming, fighting with, or crediting other people. The only real challenge in life, is with yourself. -- Me
Everything I write is my opinion and not to be considered proven fact. Nothing I write should be considered financial advice.
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Andysvw
Posts: 1761
Incept: 2010-06-26
Tujunga Ca
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I have been thinking about that velocity thing. The money moves thru the economy at some speed but its direction today is almost always vertical. Very little horizontal movement. It seems to me the feds actions are to create a more vertical flow. Savers are the ones that make the money move sideways. Disposable income can and does move in any direction the savers chose.
Any thoughts ?
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Mannfm11
Posts: 3556
Incept: 2009-02-28
DFW, Tx
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I don't believe those calculations mean a damn thing Karl, because the numbers are meaningless, but that is besides the point.
What this bastard is bitching about is we are supposed to keep every dime of our money in the bank so these bankers can have it back for free. Otherwise, the crap they are claiming as good money is shown to be what it is, crap. They can't run their 100 to 1 leverage schemes.
There is a well known scripture in Revelations, in that in the beast system, you will have to have a number with which to buy or sell. Is there any more satanic system on earth than the fraud system known as banking? Do we not worship the bank. Isn't the entire system being run to blow the bankers? The last thing they want to do is honor their liabilities, because their system is a system of fraud.
Look at Bain? If these ****ers had to lay their chips on the table on a day to day basis, they would be found naked. They are likely running just as big a scheme as Madoff. Hicks, down here is Dallas, scammed his way into the Rangers and Stars. I figure he probably used them as debt cows and had to be liquidated.
I would challenge Bain to show us one real investment they made and if they made one, how much money did they get from the government to make it? Rarely ever is government backed investment good for the economy on a surplus basis and government money is merely to pay the scam artist a profit for his worthless endeavor. I will bet we see a hell of a lot of capital and jobs liquidation and very little investment in a real sense. Trading paper isn't investing.
The real fraud is these banks aren't investing either. They are creating assets by the illegal and unlawful means of lending liabilities. The problem the economy has is the bankers have created more liabilities than they can pay and we are supposed to sit there while actors like Bain loot the system and leave us holding the bag. This ****er is either a liar, read too many bull**** books on bank larceny or a criminal in a high place.
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The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.---John Kenneth Galbraith
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Mannfm11
Posts: 3556
Incept: 2009-02-28
DFW, Tx
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There is no velocity Andy. It is merely a function of price or the speed of credit creation. The amount of money needed for the economy is a fraction of what we have out there. The amount to keep prices elevated and to keep the asset bubble intact is what we have now. Lower prices are supposed to clear the market, not faster money. In fact, the production/consumption cycle can only move as fast as how many times inventory is turned over, thus getting the money, spending the money, getting the money, spending the money. When the money term means virtually nothing, it is hard to have equations based on nothing, other than to justify the nonsense the bankers and government run on us.
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The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.---John Kenneth Galbraith
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Yaldor
Posts: 2687
Incept: 2008-05-17
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I am trying to understand what M+C means. If I put a $100 in bank and the bank does not lend it to any one the V for these $100 is zero - therefor it does not count at all.
However: If the bank does lend out (based on my deposit of $100) a total of $90 this is $90 credit but for the person which receive it it is $90 of cash. Does this count as $180 ?
When it is used to buy something and the seller uses the money to buy something else and that seller is again buying something these $90 are now $270 worth of GDP.
If the 4-th seller does not spend the $90 - but rather deposit it in the bank and the bank lends out $80 dollar we are starting to see V (my original $100 has gone in and out of bank) - but how out of all that we define what is M ? what is C and what is V (for each unit of M and C - what ever they are) - I don't know.
It seems that V is different for each unit of M or C . we need an integral not a simple multiplication. But what is the difference between M and C (and how we avoid counting each twice) - I still don't know.
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For every crash the probability of someone showing that he predicted it is near 1 . For every prediction of an imminent crash the probability of it being correct is almost zero
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Steelhead23
Posts: 2043
Incept: 2008-09-09
Portland OR
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Quote:When one borrows money against nothing, that is, simply against a promise to work tomorrow, then one has put credit money into the economy without a predicate of value behind it. When the money is used to purchase real assets, like real estate, the credit is backed by the collateral of the property and the amount of skin the borrower has in the game (down payment). But there is a risk that the true value of that collateral may change through time. Hence a loan can go "underwater". The biggest problem with Mr. Conrad's statement is that depositors expect that while their deposits may be lent out, their is a presumption among savers that the bank would carefully measure the risk, price loans accordingly, and work to protect the interests of both the bank and its depositors. This expectation was reasonable when the banks held loans to maturity. Securitization broke this link and default insurance buried it. That is, Mr. Conrad may have been perfectly correct in 1930. In the Helter Skelter 2000-teens, not so much. Back in the 2000s, loans were written to anyone who could fog a mirror. Risk was pawned off on mortgage bondholders and insurance companies. As my teenaged son liked to say, "Its all good" - and it was - until the roof caved in in 2008. Hence, he is perpetuating a myth. Recent events, from JPM, BAC, and others, openly treating depositors money as "their money" to play with (that is, place at risk) shows that fiduciary responsibility has become a cruel joke. Put your savings in credit unions my friends - you won't make much, but you won't be facilitating such foolishness either.
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"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" —Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild Benjamin Bernanke For-profit commercial banks are a menace and should be eradicated
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Burf
Posts: 5
Incept: 2007-10-31
colorado
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Not exactly on point, but one reason there is so much idle capital sitting out there is that with such low tax rates, there is much less incentive to leave capital in a business. Owners/investors take it out as soon as possible to have it in their own possession. I think that is a little-mentioned downside to ever-lower personal income tax rates at the higher asset levels.
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Throxxofvron
Posts: 10337
Incept: 2009-02-17
Hyper-Speculative Psycho-Facsistic Parabolic Blow-Off
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Quote:If you've discerned from that little fact that over time this must make it impossible for some of the people to pay, you're right.
The cause of the panic withdrawal is the original counterfeiting -- it is mathematically impossible for what the bank did in issuing unbacked credit to "work" forever and they know it.
What Edward wants the government to do is to provide a means to prevent the consequence of counterfeiting from being served on the people who engaged in this outrageous practice.
And how would government do that? By forcing you to pay twice.
First, when the counterfeiting takes place, your purchasing power is debased. You are forced to hand over more units of currency (or credit) for the same goods and services since the total number of them in circulation has been increased faster than production increased. You are thus robbed by the counterfeiting act, exactly as you would be if I ran off $100 bills on my office copier.
Then, when the market discerns that this happened and seeks to punish the entity that made the bad loans (that is, the market figures out that the "assets" held by the bank are of insufficient value to pay the depositors) and the market "runs" the bank (because he who panics first gets his cash, everyone else gets nothing) then you are robbed again by the government who steps in and demands that you pay a second time for the counterfeiting that the bank originally engaged in to pay the depositors!
This is the essence of what Ron Paul has espoused (along with myself) -- while Ron Paul gets the mechanics of fixing the problem wrong (e.g. "gold standard") he gets the premise right.
Edward, on the other hand, along with Mittens, have made their money through the inflation of asset values that result from counterfeiting of the monetary supply. So did the Government and the Bureaucrats that comprise the Government. Capital Gains Taxes were inflated in a rather precise proportion to and along with the Fictional Inflated (Notional ? ) 'Values' of Securities as the Counterfeit Credit/Money flooded into the Economy during the 'Tech Stock Bubble'. Property Taxes were inflated in a rather precise proportion to and along with the Fictional Inflated (Notional ?) Property Values as the Counterfeit Credit/Money flooded into the Economy during the ''Housing Bubble. Government -even while running up Deficits and Debt; -was also actively/directly engaged in a variety of Skimming/Stealing Operations in concert with the Banksters. -The Politicians and Bureaucrats were looting the Civilian Populace via Taxation of the Fictional 'Gains' placed on the phoney 'Accounting Ledgers' and 'Balance Sheets' during the Inflation/Counterfeiting binge; -all the while claiming to be 'Public Servants'. Quote:By doing so and then selling to a "greater fool" before the bubble pops, they effectively skim off your purchasing power debasement and keep it for themselves. This is the essence of how you have your prosperity stolen from you and it's been going on for the last 30 years. AGAIN: the Banks did NOT act Alone. -The Banks acted WITH the full cooperation if not under direction of the Parasitic Government Bureaucracies. The ENTIRE STATED PURPOSE of a Representative Government was betrayed. -The Politicians and the Bureaucrats abused the Authority vested in the Government to serve the Citizenry and instead took part in the financial******and pillage of the Private Citizenry. -This is WHY the Government has no morally grounds for Legitimacy: the Bureaucracy betrayed both the spirit of the Social Contract and the Letter of the Law which comprises the basis for Legitimate Government. Republics can be organized as Oligarchies; but, to argue that the United States is an Oligarchy is no longer useful... -The fall/devolution is advanced well beyond even this sad state and has progresses unto dreaded Kleptocracy. Quote:To have a sustainable and honest economic system this practice must be stopped.
One Dollar of Capital stops it. How would ODC prevent the plundering of the Citizenry by the Criminal Bureaucracy? How would ODC prevent Unequal Applications of the Law? How would ODC prevent Politicians and Bureaucrats from rigging the Tax Code and creating regulations specifically tailored to create Private Monopolies and Fiefdoms whereby One Person or Business may be Taxed and/or Regulated; but -Politically Connected/Crony Capitalists like Edward ConMan AND ****t Romney of BAIN- are granted exemptions and deferments from regulation and taxation? ...OR from being effectively gifted the assets/property/profits of those that are NOT Politically Connected that are or would be their competition if there were no interference in the Markets by Government? One Dollar of Capital, like the Gold Standard; -simply cannot function effectively if the Government is being run by Mobsters and Molls who can and will steal from or accost the Public via Inflation/Debasement Schemes, Taxation Schemes, Property/Asset Confiscation Schemes, Legislative and Judicial Abrogations of Individual Rights, granting Non-Human/Lifeless/Non-Corporal 'Corporations' with Human GOD-Given 'Individual' Civil Rights but without counterbalancing 'Individual' Civic Responsibilities; and/or Unequal Applications of the Law. Conceiving 'One Dollar of Capital' was the EASY part. One Dollar of Capital will not work under prevailing conditions of Kleptocracy/Crony Capitalism/Fascism/Regulatory Capture/Government Sponsored/Orchestrated Control Fraud. What would be the purpose of restoring Glass-Steagal if exemptions would still be carved out for the likes of Citi/Travelers -AS WAS DONE BEFORE- Glass-Steagal was revoked? SEE? -Glass-Steagal DID NOT work once the Politicians and the Bureaucrats gutted it with Exemptions for the likes of Citi/Travelers. Dammit, Karl: One Dollar of Capital would be summarily abused or gutted just as Glass-Steagal was; -and You KNOW IT.
-ODC would become something even YOU would HATE as it came to be Enforced Selectively as a tool to Rob the very Citizens and Businesses that You devised the concept to protect.
I KNOW that SUCKS BALLS; but, Someone here HAS to say it.
You have to clean house [/I]medieval style [/I]within the Government Bureaucracies and within the Banking Institutions, and put the Corporations back in their place BEHIND Human Persons that Live and Die and can be punished by making the former hellish in Prison or by taking Life Itself away; -before You are going to get anything remotely resembling ODC to function.
Ditto with Gold Backing or Convertability, Volker Rule or TBTF Resolution Authority, Fair Tax OR Flat Tax, etc., etc, etc, etc., and so on, to infinity, forever and ever: AMEN!
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DIONYSUS: " Thou hast no knowledge of the life thou art leading; thy very existence is now a mystery to thee. " -from 'The Bacchantes' By Euripides “During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.” -George Orwell
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Peterm99
Posts: 4995
Incept: 2009-03-21
SoCal
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Burf wrote... . . downside . . . ONLY if you believe that gov't is more deserving of your money than you are and that gov't manipulation of the economy is a good thing.
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". . . the Constitution has died, the economy welters in irreversible decline, we have perpetual war, all power lies in the hands of the executive, the police are supreme, and a surveillance beyond Orwell’s imaginings falls into place." - Fred Reed
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