Mannfm11 wrote..

What is the real purpose of a traffic stop in most cities and towns, safety or revenue enhancement?

My jaundiced view is that it tends towards a 20% / 80% split in most areas. Here's another man's opinion:

State Over-Reach: Stripmining the Citizenry for Fun and Profit http://www.oftwominds.com/blognov09/stat....

Stripmining the Citizenry, and the Future of Work http://www.oftwominds.com/blogjan10/stri....

Tully

When you look at the source of this article it comes from Bloomberg and they run out and find Barry Fife to say I will be shot when I am legally doing my job. First if the person is going to shoot you when you are legally doing your job will shoot you with or without this law if you don’t like it get a new job. What this law does is make sure you if you are a cop you do not become a pig. I was always told a lock only keeps an honest person honest.

The good news is this law will help the police to learn how to read the house numbers.

Countdown:

http://www.worldipv6launch.org/

Just over 1.5 hours left.

I gave Govenor Mitch Danials my two worth immediately. I needed to keep it respectful.

Dear Governor,

The Indiana Supreme Court in Barnes vs. State of Indiana has blasted a major breach in our protection under the 4th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

My questions for you are:

Why did you allow this to happen?

What are you going to do about this?

My understanding is that this decision overturns hundreds of years of common law. This is a major blow against freedom. Does this not defeat the very reason for the grievance against the English Crown which the 4th Amendment was instituted to protect against?

Update:

>City does not appeal; fires the police officer...that is his only punishment! {update thanks to MrBill...the cop is facing a trial and up to 30 years...I didn't know that and couldn't find the original story...good job MrBill...be interesting to see how much time he actually gets...and if the union can get him his job back before he goes to jail; maybe he can terrorize others one last time...just that he thought what he was doing was "ok" is all too common with "peace" officers anymore...way too many Rambos.}

Quote:

The good news is this law will help the police to learn how to read the house numbers.

I doubt it, but it would be nice. It will certainly help, though, the next time some pigs bust into the wrong house and get ventilated by a righteous homeowner, and assuming the homeowner survives, find that the pigs and crew have a much harder time trying to rake the guy over the coals as his lawyer is made aware of this new law. John Bad Elk vs US, the sequel.

@erica712 i couldn't agree more; you've nailed the public at large perfectly. whomever 'lynn d' is she doesn't deserve freedom or security. for my part, its a good thing i wasn't driving that intersection at the time. i fear if i had been that i'd be locked up, in a hospital, or in a morgue. for i certainly wouldn't have been willing to submit to such domestic terrorism.

cheers

Ignorantsavage, how long after that happens will that poor homeowner be visited by a gang of LEOs at night and not live to tell about it? George Zimmerman part II. Sure, it was legal under the new IN law, but that doesn't always count, does it?

"Lynn D" probably looks forward to being groped by the TSA so she can be safe and all.

Ugh. I'm familiar with this mindset b/c I'm married to a man who thinks along these lines. (a nice surprise to find out, believe me) These things just didn't come up in convo back in 2003. He's of the "let the government tap my phones. I don't have anything to hide" mindset. We've had some pretty heated conversations about it. To him, I'm a tinfoil hat wearing nut job. Oh well, there are worse things to be (like Lynn D.).

Erica: I'm in the same boat in a lot of ways, but also have two kids (18 and 11) that have been "educated" by the public school system. It's frustrating as hell.

Just as an example of that, when obama was first elected, they both (especially the 11 year old) were gushing and oohing and ahing about how great he was and how lucky we were to have him.

A few months later, totally disgusted with it, I sat her down and showed her a video of his campaign promises with a followup after each one showing what he actually did.

That put an end to that *FAST* and she can't stand the "liar" anymore. :)

If you value your blood pressure or health, you might not want to read this article or even the site... but it does offer a window in to the modern police mindset.

http://www.policeone.com/community-polic....

Quote:

Ignorantsavage, how long after that happens will that poor homeowner be visited by a gang of LEOs at night and not live to tell about it? George Zimmerman part II. Sure, it was legal under the new IN law, but that doesn't always count, does it?

One person alone is helpless against a gang. Once the gang shows itself to the nation at large... that is where the change happens. When the individuals of the nation see the gang for what it is, the gang doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell.

It sure does.

I hope those cops don't want our help when the **** hits the fan -- because they won't get mine.

Cops have bent the definition of reasonable to absurd definitions when it suits them. Now that the same word is in the law where it could prevent the idiocy that they inflict on the populace daily they are butt hurt.

That's basically the summary of the article.

They are all disgusting people.

The really sad part about the murderous cops in New Orleans is that the state of Louisiana never even went after them with murder charges. They had to be tried in Federal court for civil rights violations and obstruction of justice charges instead.

I think cops do a good job on most things. A walk into someones house needs to be well thought out and not a spur of the moment decision. Flap posted the fatalities in law enforcement and more got killed in traffic accidents than homecides. I recall we had a cop for a tenant about 25 years ago and he wrecked several cars while living in our house. You have the chase scenes because some idiot doesn't want to pull over. You know, the $200 bounty. You are considered under arrest when they turn the lights on. A legal guy I know (a noted guy who studies law and makes trouble in municipal courts) forces them to Mirandize him and then won't tell them who he is

The first solution is to get rid of so damn many laws they need to enforce Drug laws would be a good place to start. Treat them like liquor and maintain only a short list, like heroin and high powered cocaine. I don't mind the traffic laws, as long as they are reasonable. Where I live, it is clear to me they run the town to maximize revenue. The only way to fight is to ask for a jury trial. It is the other cops, the neighborhood people that are really a pain in the ass. They fined me a few years ago because I didn't finish the trim on a house they demanded I paint. My problem was I was doing some other work on another property because of a demand I got from them. My mother paid the fine. Hell would have frozen over before I paid it. They couldn't any more show damages or a imminent danger to the public at large than they could have screwed a hole in the street. The bastard should have been castrated.

I recall reading about Sandy Springs Georgia. In the article, they had privatized everything and they fixed their red lights to save the people time. Not here. They run their red lights to frustrate guys like me into running them. The city used to have signs boasting about how many red light tickets they had written. Now they merely mention they have the cameras. Another civil suit, where there are no damages. Liquidated damage awards aren't decided in court. Only actual damages. People would respect the law more if the government wasn't aiding and abetting the ripoff of the common man.

There was a case locally in Pittsburgh where some cops busted down a door on some kind of drug bust...whatever. There happened to be a woman at the top of the stairs that opened fire with a .357, defending herself and her baby.

She was not the target of the bust; a cop or sheriff died. Bummer! So sorry about your no knock raid...but they naturally charged her with everything short of jaywalking and last I read, were accused of attacking, intimidating and trying to influence her family.

Haven't been following it in case I get called for jury duty, but what struck me is the tone of the coverage...such a tragedy! Shot in the side, no chance for his armor to save him! I thought - you kick someone's door in with a no knock raid flashing guns - expect to get killed.

Just an occupational hazard, really. While selling cotton candy at the local carnival doesn't give that crazy adrenaline rush, you are much less likely to get shot and bleed out. See, life is just chock full of trade offs.

Volunteer for a BS unconstitutional drug war that your side has been losing for 50 years...get wasted; is that tragedy or evolution?

Da Police, when they went from Peace Officers to Police Officers became an enemy of the people and a tool of the elite/establishment.

Today they are nothing but tin pot dictators, and revenue agents for the state; they ooze along the highway enforcing thousands of laws that do nothing other than provide sweet cash to their masters and thus themselves.

Really. Someone kicks your door in right now! You'll be dead/raped long before and cops come by. You know this if you have an IQ above 60.

Yet we have so many cops, outfitted with a car, AR, Glock, Body Armor, Radio, Computer...honestly, each mobile leech must cost 250K per year all told...with the express purpose to fine you/**** with you/steal from you. Just an official gangster in blue.

Cops are useless, aggressive, hungry ticks that feed upon the people like a foul, expanding plague; the profession necessarily attracts the psychotic or the borderline retarded; and then hand them a high capacity firearm.

If more Americans would man up and act upon the fact that their and their family's security is up to them and them alone, maybe these ticks would whither and die.

Hopefully as our economy implodes these armored tax collectors with fade away, gaunt and hungry, then slowly starve to death.

PS. I know Guy would comment on this post :O

Here is a quote from Atmartin's link:

Quote:

However, legislative and judicial thinking has changed significantly in recent years, the Indiana Supreme Court majority pointed out in its 3-2 decision. The Model Penal Code has now eliminated the right because “alternate remedies,” including civil suit, now exist for an “aggrieved” party and because forceful resistance is “likely to result in greater injury.” A “majority of states have abolished the right” to resist via statutes and judicial opinions, the Court stated.

Get a load of that first sentence. While governmental 'thinking' has changed it seems that the people's thinking has not changed...

Flap

P.S. A LEO friend of mine was killed in a traffic accident a few years ago, he was speeding while responding to a fellow officers call for help. It was raining lightly and he hit some water and hydroplaned and got hit by an oncoming large SUV and was killed. Why was the other officer calling for help? He found some drugs during a traffic stop and the people who were losing their drugs and freedom were unhappy about it.

The Law Enforcement board Armartin linked to is scary.
They have police saying civilians shouldn't be allowed to post there.
There is a total us against everyone else mentality.
The few officers who tried to point out there is misbehavior and the public has had reason to fear their police were obviously tentative and watered down their message. The majority had this attitude that they must be in control and will escalate - they never say escalate the violence - until they are in control.
So boys. What happens when you escalate all the way and it isn't enough?

This guy - this guy needs an award!

Quote:

As a law enforcement officer for 14 years I will only make one statement on this issue. All the cries of more officers being killed and it's open season on police officers is the same hyperbole we heard when Florida was in the process of going shall issue and the sky hadn't fallen. This issue made national news and if incidents began to happen as predicted it would also make national news, however, this bill was signed into law ten days ago (went into effect immediatly)and we haven't seen or heard of one incident where even a criminal or a citizen has made the claim of defense against lawful actions by police. We answer to the people, not the other way around and this new law is one more way for the people to maintain the checks and balances.

I'm buying his.

Forget for the moment unreasonable but legal SWAT type raids. That needs to stop.

The law should have been about whether the police action was legal or not. Not whether the "citizen" reasonably believed the police action was legal.

If a cop busts down the wrong door, the cop (or at least the government) should be liable for his actions regardless of whether he believes he was correct.

If a cop busts down your door, you have to be liable for being in the right in the light of all the facts after the event. Regardless of whether you believe you are in the right at the moment.

When the dust settles the legally acting party should be recognized and the illegally acting party should be held responsible.

Unfortunately, in the heat of the moment, everybody thinks they are the only ones in the right. If you are not in the right but you reasonably think that you are in the right and you decide to fight, bad things sometimes happen to good people. Life is not always fair. If you are a cop and bad information causes you to illegally break into someones home, sorry, bad things sometimes happen to good cops.

At some point the government should recognize the stakes in the game they are playing. Maybe they should not send a SWAT team to arrest a man suspected of gambling (and kill him). I know the police like the overtime pay and playing with their cool SWAT toys but maybe they should step back and think about reasonable response to the actual individual situation and not their "use it or lose it" budget.



In general people can tell the difference between enforcing the public good and revenue generation. People can tell the difference between legitimately protecting one of your own and shielding a bad cop from justice. Unfortunately these two issues have become the public perception of the majority of police actions. Consequently the general respect for police is low. If the public could see that the police would actually hold themselves to at least a standard of the laws everyone else has to follow (I believe it should be a higher standard in lieu of their guns and authority), if the public could see that fines were proportional to actual damage to public good, I think the respect for police would hugely increase. I'm not holding my breath.