Indiana Sets A Model For All States
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2012-06-05 11:44
by Karl Denninger
in Editorial
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Indiana Sets A Model For All States
 

It's about damn time.

Every time police Sergeant Joseph Hubbard stops a speeder or serves a search warrant, he says he worries suspects assume they can open fire -- without breaking the law.

Hubbard, a 17-year veteran of the police department in Jeffersonville, Indiana, says his apprehension stems from a state law approved this year that allows residents to use deadly force in response to the “unlawful intrusion” by a “public servant” to protect themselves and others, or their property.

The solution this is simple: Don't undertake unlawful intrusions.

The issue arises because of a case in Indiana where the State Supreme Court held that you had no right to resist an unlawful entry by the police.

That's patent nonsense.  An unlawful act by the police is exactly the same, in terms of the law, as that of an armed criminal.

Young cited a hypothetical situation of a homeowner returning to see an officer raping his daughter or wife. Under the court’s ruling, the homeowner could not touch the officer and only file a lawsuit later, he said. Young said he devised the idea for the law after the court ruling.

“There are bad legislators,” Young said. “There are bad clergy, bad doctors, bad teachers, and it’s these officers that we’re concerned about that when they act outside their scope and duty that the individual ought to have a right to protect themselves.”

That's exactly correct.

Unfortunately "authority" positions tend to attract sociopaths.  This is a fact; the person who is mentally unstable and seeking to show how "macho" he is will be attracted to a position that gives him a badge, a gun, and the "right" to abuse both.

Adding insult to injury is the fact that in virtually no case are police officers held personally to account for violations of citizen rights.  The usual "recourse" is to sue, but then you're suing yourself if you live in the jurisdiction, as your taxes will pay the judgment! 

This is a crock, yet it is rare that the pigs (not police officers) involved in such illegal acts are personally charged and imprisoned for the same offense an ordinary citizen would face if he or she engaged in identical conduct.  This is even true in "relatively mild" cases where disparate treatment is common; there is an officer here in our county who was caught twice operating under the influence.  He was finally arrested after he crashed -- his previous DUI was "overlooked" and in addition he was investigated for aggravated assault with a firearm also involving the use of alcohol off-duty. 

You or I would have been arrested and prosecuted for both of those previous events.  He wasn't.

Never mind that suing is difficult when you're dead, as was discovered in Louisiana after Katrina.

That, incidentally, was one of the rare incidents in which actual criminal sanction was (finally) handed out, with the pigs involved being prosecuted for not only killing an unarmed man but also planting a gun on him in an attempt to justify their act of murder.

Let me be clear: There's a hell of a difference between a pig and a police officer.  A police officer acts within The Constitution and The Law.  He obtains a warrant before he performs a search.  He confines the use of "no-notice, no-knock" warrants to legitimate circumstances where imminent risk of death or serious bodily harm to uninvolved and innocent parties exist, rather than using them as a "show of force."  He takes responsibility for his or her errors, including "accidentally" raiding the wrong house and understands that if he does that he's in the wrong and runs the risk of being shot as he's unlawfully entering private property -- he is in fact an armed felon committing a breaking and entering!  This in turn drives said officer to be damned sure he's raiding the right address and to restrict said "raids" to those circumstances where they are utterly unavoidable -- and that's very, very rare.

I fully support police officers and the rule of law.

I spit on the shoes of pigs and their testosterone-laden Rambo re-enactments along with the "special treatment" that is so-often handed out when they violate the rights of citizens or simply break the law.

I'd love to believe in the rule of law providing sufficient recourse against unlawful acts by the cops but the fact of the matter is that it isn't and never can be, because if you're dead suing is cold comfort for your next-of-kin and the officers involved are almost never held to personal criminal account when they storm the wrong address in search of drugs (for which shutting off the water and power and demanding the occupants come out with their hands up is more than sufficient to prevent destruction of evidence) or otherwise abuse their badge and hardware in their testosterone-loaded fantasy re-enactments of Rambo.

We don't demand that you stand back and then sue if someone breaks into your house and rapes your wife.  You have a well-recognized unalienable right to end that assault via the use of force right there, right now.

The same right exists when the bad actor who is assaulting you illegally is using the emblem and weapons of government as a means of enabling his felonious conduct.

Discussion below (registration required to post)
 

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User Info Indiana Sets A Model For All States in forum [Market-Ticker]
Duc888
Posts: 7368
Incept: 2008-11-06
Gold
CT, the UNconstitution State
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Wow, a glimmer of hope.

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...burp
Asimov
Posts: 103849
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Gold
East Tennessee Eastern Time
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Quote:
Every time police Sergeant Joseph Hubbard stops a speeder or serves a search warrant, he says he worries suspects assume they can open fire -- without breaking the law.


Good. Unlawful is unlawful, I don't give a **** what your job is.

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It's justifiably immoral to deal morally with an immoral entity.
If you trade based on what other people say, you will lose money. Especially what I say. I won't be held responsible. Festina lente.
Bsfootprint
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Unlawful act - acting without force of law.

Why's that hard for people to understand? If a government officer is acting without force of law, he's acting outside the law, so he loses the protections and privileges of the office. 'Nuff said.

Good for Indiana.

Edit: I was always fascinated at the lack of understanding most 'citizens' have for the difference between legal and lawful behavior, especially on the part of government officials. The reverence for and deference shown to government officials is truly frightening. No wonder there's an endless supply of people wanting to fill those positions, willing to spend gobs of money to obtain the office.

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When I hear central bankers are blowing bubbles, I like to picture a large, happy and well-endowed male chimp named 'Bubbles'...

Andysvw
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The leash is to long. Kelly Thomas is a good example. People just watched him get beaten to death. If any of them had even tried to help they would have been beaten and charged. We are not safe. Until we shorten that leash and put it in the hand of the governed we wont be. As bad as these pigs are the judges that allow this type of stuff to pass are worse.






































































Michaeld
Posts: 17
Incept: 2011-02-01

CO, USA
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"Responding officers barricaded the area, trapping about 25 cars near the intersection. Then police went car by car and pulled out each occupant at gunpoint and handcuffed them."

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/311....

Ignorantsavage
Posts: 701
Incept: 2007-11-27
Green A True American Patriot!
united States
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Note that this is a modern acknowledgement of a long-standing recognized principle, a principle not limited to Indiana. A case from 1900 recognized (not "established", "allowed", "granted", etc.) that individuals have the right to defend against unlawful actions, no matter if the illegal actor is a government agent: John Bad Elk vs United States.

It's very encouraging to see the principle being revisted!

-edit
For those who hadn't heard about it, the "Katrina incident" being referred to was the Danzinger Bridge shootings, where police opened fire on unarmed civilians attempting to leave the area by walking across a bridge. http://www.propublica.org/nola/case/topi....
http://colorlines.com/archives/2012/04/n....

Uppity_peasant
Posts: 3101
Incept: 2009-06-26

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Quote:
Every time police Sergeant Joseph Hubbard stops a speeder or serves a search warrant, he says he worries suspects assume they can open fire -- without breaking the law.

You know, I don't know why you guys are always giving these minimum-wage working stiffs like Joe Hubbard such a hard time about their job concerns.

Joe's just barely scraping by on $75-80 thou a year ($36-$40 bucks an hour), and now he has to put up with personal endangerment from the very serfs he's skinning for revenue every day.

GROWING GOVERNMENT: Jeffersonville's city salaries increase by nearly half in five years
http://newsandtribune.com/x1936216197/GR....
Quote:
Joe Hubbard, police $72,262


Burger-flippers only have worry about hot grease splatter and the occasional armed robbery. Joe gets about the same compensation as a McD's counter employee, and he has to worry about getting shot if an armed peasant goes all vigilante on him.

Shame on all of you!

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If it's true that "assault weapons" are "weapons of war" and don't belong on the streets of America, why do the police need them? Who are the police at war with?
Mannfm11
Posts: 3532
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DFW, Tx
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What is the real purpose of a traffic stop in most cities and towns, safety or revenue enhancement? I live just off a 6 lane, cross town thoroughfare where the speed limit is 30 MPH. The 2 lanes on the curbside are used for parking, for what are rear entry SFR properties. Sometimes for weeks at a time, the cops are working this stretch. The north/south thoroughfare in the same area has a parking lot for a ball field along it. You can count on the cops being there. The limit, 35 MPH. Comparative neighborhoods on the other side of town, where the masses are, in general, higher income, has no such speed trap setups. Clearly, these people are more likely to employ lawyers to get out of paying the fines. The municipal court here looks like an anthill, with so many people going in to pay.

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The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.---John Kenneth Galbraith
Andysvw
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Integrity, honor and wisdom. Thats what they are paid for. Thats what I expect for my trust.
Mpilar
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Nashville, TN
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Quote:
Burger-flippers only have worry about hot grease splatter and the occasional armed robbery.

Funny isn't it? Especially since 99 times out of a 100, the armed robbery comes directly from Joe and his ilk.

Robbing people at gun point should be dangerous, even if you have a gov issued piece of metal on your shirt.

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Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. H. L. Mencken
Ckaminski
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You forgot the /sarcasm tag there...
Uppity_peasant
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@ Ck:

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the fact that .gov employees think it's normal for a police sergeant to make as much as a decent computer programmer.

Pitz needs to move to the US and get an associate's in Criminal Justice...

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If it's true that "assault weapons" are "weapons of war" and don't belong on the streets of America, why do the police need them? Who are the police at war with?
Widgeon
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Indiana passed some law in '10/'11 that was pure fascism. Darn if can think of it right quick. There's a thread in here somewhere.

Got Lucky: Indiana Supreme Court & Daniels

Quote:
We hold that there is no right to reasonably resist unlawful entry by police officers.



http://market-ticker.org/cgi-ticker/akcs....

Salt
Posts: 191
Incept: 2010-05-28

NC
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This article is quite worth the read http://lewrockwell.com/anderson/anderson.... within the context of this thread.
N9lhm
Posts: 92
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Gold
South Bend, IN
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BRAVO!!!!!!!! Makes me proud to live in Indiana!

Interestingly enough, though, this is the first I have heard of this law. I've never seen a mention of it in our left-leaning local paper.
Steelhead23
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Portland OR
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While I wholly agree with you on this, be careful. Be very careful. LEOs can be deadly. I would never dare spit on one's shoes. They may be bullies, but they are armed and have sanction to use those arms if you so much as spit on their shoes. After all, you could have AIDS and your bodily fluids a weapon. I am not trying to be funny or hyperbolic here. I would sooner shoot a LEO than spit on his shoes. Just sayin.

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"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" —Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild Benjamin Bernanke
For-profit commercial banks are a menace and should be eradicated
Reluctantdebtor
Posts: 126
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ohio
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Re:
"Every time police Sergeant Joseph Hubbard stops a speeder or serves a search warrant, he says he worries suspects assume they can open fire -- without breaking the law."

Every police officer SHOULD spend his entire work day fearing for his life. It's the nature of the job. It's very dangerous. Living in fear might make the cop slightly slower to engage in bad behavior.
Flappingeagle
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I for one am tired of all this crap about how dangerous it is to be a policeman/fireman, especially when it is used to justify a high salary AND an overly generous pension that often starts before age 50.

Those occupations are no more dangerous than a number of other common jobs.

http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2009/09/04/....

Flap

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Here are my predictions for everyone to see:
S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu.
"You can't build a house of cards on a shaking table." - Tony Johns
The January 2015 AMZN put at $130 (cost $4.25) will be a winner.
Ckaminski
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Christ, cops and firemen don't even make the top 10. That's awesome. Below even taxi drivers. :-)
Erica712
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Central FL
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In response to what Michaeld posted about police blocking the road for 2 hours and handcuffing 21 motorists in order to find a bank robber:

Well, it seeems one "lynn d" is ok with it, based on her comment on the article: "ok, knowing I was innocent, Mayhem 2002, I would have no problem with the police doing what they need to do....even if it was an inconvenience. Give it up."

THIS is the mentality of Americans, folks. The powers that be can push the line very far indeed, as long as it is "for our own good."
Hey, they did catch the bank robber after all. (in the midn of Lynn D. because someone was hauled off to jail.)

So the Lynn D.'s of this country are ok with being forced out of their cars at gunpoint and handcuffed for 2 hours.

I hope Lynn D. and her pathetic family experience some real police brutality one day. Her view is sickening.
Nelstomlinson
Posts: 124
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Juneau Alaska
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Cab drivers face the same threat from robbers and drug dealers that the cops do. Cab drivers will drive up to twenty or more strange, low-income addresses every night, and get out and knock on the door. Cab drivers have strangers get into their car, and tell them to drive to some dark alley somewhere. Cab drivers take more risks with the public than the cops do, plus they are in danger from the cops.

When I was driving, I always felt safer around the junkies and pushers than around the police.
Flaps10
Posts: 5144
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Silver
seattle
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Excellent ticker Karl.


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"Better to die on your feet than live on your knees"
Debtpie
Posts: 534
Incept: 2009-12-17

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Des Moines Iowa a few years back.

>Police officer stops black couple for traffic violation.

>Police officer beats the hell out of them.

>Case goes to court.

>Jury finds the police officer guilty...awards $500K

>City does not appeal; fires the police officer...that is his only punishment!

>Police union is currently in court to get the cop his job back! City is fighting it tooth an nail...you know this guy was guilty if the unionized city refuses to kiss the unionized cops arse.

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A Leader, or an Opportunist? "A leader has the capacity of vision, the ability to see where things are headed before people in general see those things." Mitt Romney --- DebtPie's definition: a leader decides where "things" should head and "leads" us there.

Mrbill
Posts: 7840
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Gold
North Carolina
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Link with stories regarding that situation Debtpie describes:
http://blogs.desmoinesregister.com/dmr/i....

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