| User Info
| Greece Will Leave The Euro: Be Prepared in forum [Market-Ticker]
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Truthseeker
Posts: 8479
Incept: 2007-10-07
NorCal
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Excellent ticker!
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"...But people better realize that the worst-case scenario could actually happen.9/11 happened. This can happen. An economic 9/11, the likes of which we've never seen." Gerald Celente
Reason: Symbols didn't copy
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Irishblues
Posts: 290
Incept: 2010-12-18
Wisconsin
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Greece and the rest of Europe knew that Greece had no hope of paying back its debt in 2008; how many billions of Euros were squandered trying to prevent the inevitable? How much of that would have been squandered had the ECB done the right thing the first time and said "if the rest of you want to bail them out, fine ... but if it blows up, we're dismantling you like we would any other failed bank?"
Almost without exception, the best thing to do once you know you have a serious problem and you can't fix it is to get out - because the consequences of not doing it are much worse.
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Avianphlu
Posts: 3982
Incept: 2008-12-03
Ulster NY
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the time line is important and so are the banking capital cushions in greece...my question is what happens when greece has a bank holiday..could it be days away? or longer like weeks.
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Zarathustra
Posts: 5961
Incept: 2009-04-29
Funkytown
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SAVED or not SAVED??????????????
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"And in knowing that you know nothing, that makes you the smartest of all." - Socrates
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Josecitomadera
Posts: 554
Incept: 2009-03-20
Miami
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There is so much fear now in Europe. It's a different world. Back when WW2 was about to start, people were cheering in the streets at the prospect of war. Today, a little itty bitty change from one currency to another, the prospects of a EURO-UNION coming to an end and everyone the world over is scared.
I wish Greece especially the up and coming young Communist leader would tell the world they ain't gonna pay nuthin'. It would be fun to see all those bloated and fat hedge funds bust wide open at the loss. Greece could change over to the drachma and take care of their needs instead of bailing out the banks as they have done for so many years now.
But, people are scared today, really scared. It isn't the same sentiment there was at the prospect of war over 75 years ago. Today, any little change scares people alot with so many fools building bunkers and storing food. They confuse an extermination event with economic systemic collapse. It's really silly when you think about it.
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What do I know, I'm only an ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT.
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Christiangustafson
Posts: 4140
Incept: 2007-06-27
Helping Hand Acceptance Corporation
Banned
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How many New Drachmas for a barrel of crude oil?
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It is therefore, on opinion only that government is founded... -- Hume
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Bagbalm
Posts: 4264
Incept: 2009-03-19
Just North of Detroit
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What are the chances it tips the cart over here?
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Wineaux
Posts: 533
Incept: 2009-03-23
pure Liquid pleasure
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The word ‘unification’ and everything it entails should be forever stricken on the European continent. And while they are at it reconstruct the wall.
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What wine goes with unemployment?
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Cheapbastud
Posts: 908
Incept: 2007-10-09
Rainbow Star. Pay no attention to the green star
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One thing I've been wondering about:
One of the leaders over there referred to the "risk of Greece becoming ungoverned". The translated article made it sound like "lacking a government". I assume he was speculating about a similar result as this most recent one occurring again in June elections in Greece. However, with translation issues, I can't be sure that is what was meant.
I'm going to follow that train of thought anyway.
If there is no winner or coalition after the June elections, I would suspect things would turn pretty ugly fast on the streets in Greece. In the chaos, I wonder if the EU would not just assume outright control of Greece. The EU has the Eurocorp in Strasbourg they could deploy for the purpose of restoring order, or perhaps the EUFOR currently in Bosnia.
I wonder if this might happen even if Syriza wins and tells the EU to stuff it.
I know there is a small faction of the elite that would consider letting Greece exit, but I wonder if many would consider this to be their "Abraham Lincoln moment" to enforce the union.
History suggests that the Eurocracy won't go down without a fight. Even though the soviet union went down rather quietly, the communists still attempted a last ditch coup against Yeltsin complete with tanks in the streets.
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limit(r-->m) k(r) = b
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Genesis
Posts: 130807
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Such an attempt would be almost-certain to result in an instant civil war.
The Greeks may be many things but I bet they'll pull out the guns if the Europeans try something like that -- it would entirely justified too, as that would be a literal invasion.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Cheapbastud
Posts: 908
Incept: 2007-10-09
Rainbow Star. Pay no attention to the green star
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Agreed, I'm just alluding to history and wondering aloud. I think it is something to consider. Not projecting a winner or anything like that.
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limit(r-->m) k(r) = b
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Jal
Posts: 513
Incept: 2009-03-25
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Quote:They really think they can reject austerity and stay in the Euro. And you know, given the mutually assured destruction Europe faces, they might just be right. Here is the key phrase that is being kept out of the discussion. Quote:... mutually assured destruction... The Greeks have a bigger gun that the EU
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Banditfist
Posts: 722
Incept: 2007-09-20
Huntsville, Alabama
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I am just catching up with today's news. Take it for what it is, but yahoo! had a headline about gold is in a bear market. My assumption is that gold is down pricewise. I am trying to figure out how to play the breakup of the EU and what the reverberating effects will be. I would have thought gold would have gotten stronger (geopolitical hedge). I know that if I was Greek, I would be pouring ever cent I made into dollar or gold for sure.
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"Are you sure you can't remember?" "I'm sure I can't remember" ~ Ben Bernake 25 Jun 2009
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Stonedog
Posts: 2080
Incept: 2008-05-29
New Jersey
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Karl - thank you for everything. I mean everything. You were the very first person I heard back in 2008 talking about Greece (specifically) and the other EU nations using the common currency. You were also the first person to say that the European Banks were in worse shape than their US counterparts. You warned them. They didn't ****ing listen.
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"I would characterize my professional disdain as more of a professional contempt for their [Central Banker, Banker and politician] economic and financial policies, priorities, presumptions and prescriptions." - Lauren Lyster on Capital Account for Friday June 16, 2012
"All the stimulus, the bailouts, the quantit
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Plstffls
Posts: 146
Incept: 2007-06-26
Brussels, Belgium
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Once upon a time - twelve years ago - there was the Greek Drachma: ISO code: GRD (before 2001-01-01) Rate: 340.75 (fixed on 2000-06-19) (Source: from Wikipedia)
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Dashingdwl
Posts: 9764
Incept: 2007-06-26
los angeles
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So, if Greece shreds these loan documents, will they have to pay back those ECB loans? How does that work?
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When you are hard and disciplined, you can be principled. People fear you because they have no leverage against you. It's the truest form of Liberty.
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Widgeon
Posts: 13481
Incept: 2007-08-30
Region formerly known as the United States
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Quote:how many billions of Euros were squandered trying to prevent the inevitable From one point of view, NOTHING has been "squandered." At least, nothing of any consequence. All the squandered "spending" of the last 4 years is largely sitting in Primary Dealer, CB, and ECB bank vaults.
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Stuki
Posts: 88
Incept: 2009-01-29
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What is the biggest problem with the exit and devaluation strategy, is that if you borrowed unsustainably, and bought non financial or foreign assets, you suddenly don't have to pay back all you borrowed anymore, and still get to keep the assets you bought. While prudent lenders get stiffed. And imprudent lenders get to stay around; losing some for sure, but not going under.
As such, it is complete and utter theft from the competent, for the benefit of the incompetent. And, as always, when you subsidize someone, you get more of them; in this case, incompetents.
A vastly superior strategy would be for Greece's government to simply fold and not pay. Then a new government would take over, clean of liabilities; but still using the Euro. Then let the chips fall where they may. As powerful as the banks are, even they don't have much of an army to force repayment with, anyway. This would also set a very positive precedent as well, as instead of government debt being somehow considered "safe", it would be recognized that it is exactly as good as the word of the average politician. Then governments' borrowing costs would start reflecting that reality.
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Deepsee100
Posts: 1304
Incept: 2008-02-05
The Med
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Recently, Belgium didn't have a government for over a year iirc, you know the place where the EU government sits...
Greece could easily go for a few months without one...and what if violence doesn't beak out? Maybe they'll see how useless government really is.
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Next
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Mrbill
Posts: 7857
Incept: 2008-10-19
North Carolina
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Stuki: Which "prudent lenders" are you talking about? If you're talking about those that lent to a government, then they are not prudent, because it's always been that there is no collateral and is only as good as the government.
If you're talking about private debt, then only collateralized debt is "prudent", and exit-and-devalue hurts borrowers in Greece far more than lenders in that situation. For borrowers, their new currency buys less Euro, which they still need to pay back their debt denominated in Euro.
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Aethor
Posts: 132
Incept: 2011-11-15
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Quote:Let's say your salary is €2,000 monthly before Greece exits. Your new salary is D2,000 ("Drachmas"; I don't happen to have a symbol for it handy.) The drachma is then allowed to float against the Euro after being issued at 1:1 conversion and it falls by 40% almost immediately.
Your new salary is still 2,000 units of currency, the price of what you produce remains as it was in units of currency, but both your salary and the price of the things you make have gone down in external units. You can do exactly the same thing by simply lowering both the salaries and prices of things you make for that amount (40%), without going through the hassle of changing currency. The difference is that in that process, the government (and its friends) don't get to steal more money; while when printing your currency, the government and its friends get to be the first to get the money. And in every print/inflation cycle, those who get the money first can use it (exchange for other currencies, or buy something) at nearly the original price, while the nth generation user gets shafted (since by then the value of that money is already destroyed). Printing money is just another mechanism to steal value from those who still have something, and put it in the pockets of those in power. It does not accomplish anything else.
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Djloche
Posts: 3280
Incept: 2008-07-07
In the Mountains
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Aethor: the difference is: greek people controlling their own money vs germans (and the rest of europe) controlling the monetary policy in greece.
the other difference is that the government has no control over salaries nor prices. It SHOULD have control over the currency it uses. Right now it does not. Leaving the euro will fix this.
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"If we wish to be free, we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to arms and to the God of Hosts is all that is left us! Gentlemen may cry, "Peace! Peace!" -- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle?"
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Checkthisout
Posts: 167
Incept: 2010-10-01
Cary, NC
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By leaving the Euro the Greeks still haven't addressed the root cause of their problem - the state of their fiscal house. They will continue to run budget deficits even after the Drachma is introduced because they will have still refused to reel in unsustainable government spending. But once the Greek government has the Drachma, they will have the ability to print the budget shortfall into existence. That will eventually lead to hyperinflation and the destruction of the Drachma anyway. They are simply prolonging the pain, or 'kicking the can' for as long as possible.
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There are no gun free zones where free men tread.
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Aethor
Posts: 132
Incept: 2011-11-15
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Quote:Aethor: the difference is: greek people controlling their own money vs germans (and the rest of europe) controlling the monetary policy in greece.
the other difference is that the government has no control over salaries nor prices. It SHOULD have control over the currency it uses. Right now it does not. Leaving the euro will fix this. Germans controlling the monetary policy isn't the problem, not until and unless they start printing money. If ECB starts printing Euros, it would be a problem. But saying that Greeks should control their own money is kind of pointless if the purpose of that is so they could print/inflate it. The government might not have control over salaries and prices, but it won't get it through currency anyway. If a company is not willing to drop prices, even in the face of their stuff not being bought, the government can print all the money it wants but that company will simply raise prices and salaries. And that is, in fact, one aspect of what happens in inflation, so you see prices going up and up and up. If a company is willing to drop prices, they don't need a currency change to effect that.
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