How Long Before We Have An Honest Drug Discussion?
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2012-05-13 16:53
by Karl Denninger
in Liberty
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How Long Before We Have An Honest Drug Discussion?
 

Seriously folks, this is not about marijuana -- and never has been.

MONTERREY, Mexico – Forty-nine decapitated and mutilated bodies were found Sunday dumped on a highway connecting the northern Mexican metropolis of Monterrey to the U.S. border in what could be the latest outburst in an escalating war of terror among drug gangs.

That's another 49 people.  The last batch were hung off a bridge or cut up into pieces.

Why?

Because we have a "drug war" in the United States.  And the enormous amount of money has prompted a real war in other nations, whether it be Afghanistan (opium poppies) or Mexico (trafficking of various sorts.)

Some 50,000 Mexicans have lost their lives in the last few years over this war -- a war that is our responsibility.  A war that we started, we promote, we fund and we even arm with things like "Project Gunwalker", not to mention money laundering -- including accusations and even admissions that some of our largest financial institutions have been involved in it.

It's time to cut the crap.  We got this in the 1920s:

And what did we learn from it?  Exactly nothing, other than that this sort of "war" is profitable for the law enforcement community and gets civilians killed without doing a damned thing to deter drug use.

As a direct and proximate cause of our stupidity in this regard you can't buy brake cleaner in WalMart without being asked if you're 18.  We're so worried about people getting high on various things we want to prohibit that we've made it more-attractive for kids to inhale chemicals that will destroy their minds and bodies instead of smoking a joint, which clearly comes with risks -- but not of immediate death or serious bodily injury.

You think you can prevent people from getting high?  Then how come we're worried about brake cleaner, nail polish remover and lighter fluid -- all things that I bought as a youth for their original intended purposes before I was 18, and never "huffed" any of them?  Why is it that we have bars everywhere where the very purpose of the establishment is to intentionally consume an intoxicant? 

As a matter of human rights did we not know back in the early part of the 1900s that we needed to pass a Constitutional Amendment to bar people from taking into their bodies anything on their own volition?  It sure looks that way, doesn't it? 

So what changed, other than hubris, jackbooted statism and our collective idiocy quotient?

Nothing.

So why are we still maintaining a "drug war" when all it's doing is getting people killed by the literal truckload, jailing people for consensual personal conduct in which the risk is entirely personal to the party(s) engaged in it, and the cost in both money and lives is hideous and indefensible?

Simple: Money feeding politicians.

Just as with the health care debacle in which we "need" Obamacare because the government granted special privileges to certain entities and thus made health care unaffordable without them, we have the same paradigm here. 

We claim that part of the reason for the "drug war" is that if you get drug-addled society will have to take care of you.  The question not asked but which must be asked is why we put together a system that created a problem we then demand government solve!

In other words, why is it that the solution isn't to remove both the "safety net" for those who want to use drugs and the laws against their use

This does not impact public safety; if I go upon the road in my car and smash into someone while stoned, I can and should be prosecuted irrespective of what I'm stoned on!  Whether that's booze, marijuana, heroin or cough syrup the fact remains that I was willfully and intentionally impaired and if that voluntarily-impaired state of mind was part or all of the reason for the accident I should be held fully criminally and civilly accountable for my acts.

But that same substance, used within my home or other place (e.g. a "dope bar") where one does not present a public risk should be entirely at my risk -- both at the moment of use and down the road if and when the consequences are served upon my body and/or mind.

That approach -- along with looking at drug addiction as a condition that can be treated if and when the addict wants to stop, is both cheaper and respects human rights.  At the same time it eviscerates the money that currently flows into criminal gangs.

When Prohibition was repealed we stopped having Tommy Gun fights in the middle of our cities.  That didn't happen because the gangsters decided to "be nice" -- it happened because the profit in running booze, which had previously funded their acquisition of guns and ammunition, was cut off.

All we have to do to solve this problem is learn from history.

Are there any politicians who will take an honest look at this issue in full and not pander to some subset of the population (e.g. those who want to smoke a joint) while refusing to address the actual problem?

We must address the actual issue, both shrinking government involvement in our lives along with the monetary cost of this indefensible policy and saving tens of thousands of lives in places like Mexico.

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User Info How Long Before We Have An Honest Drug Discussion? in forum [Market-Ticker]
Lowbeyond
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hmm lets see..

if it wasn't for dopers none of this would be happening ?

oh and in before expy !

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Rickcaird
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If you read Robert Higgs' "Crisis and Leviathan", you will also learn that government uses wars and other "emergencies" to grab more power. Some of these powers, but not all, are returned after the war ends. But, the "War on Drugs", the "War on Poverty", and the "War on Terror" never end. They simply become justification for more power grabs.

We would be better off letting drug enforcement go and spending our money on treatment. I doubt we will lose more people to drugs if we did that than we are doing now. We could probably tax it and make enough money to eliminate the deficit. However, we are preaching to the choir, here. Most people just do not believe their children are using drug and are afraid ending the prohibition will simply put their kinds on drugs.

There is also the whole prison industry which is based on convicted drug users and dealers. They would put up quite a stink if their livelihood went away. I had breakfast with a friend Friday morning that has a suggestion about ending the drug problem. The solution is to simply announce you are poisoning the drug supply and go ahead and do it.
Crzymorse
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Yep- lump the drug war in with the double agent bomber. Tail wag dog. Weren't the founding fathers drug users....
Asimov
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You should have addressed portugal's experience since decriminalization with a drastic reduction in crime, use, underage use and increase in people seeking treatment.

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It's justifiably immoral to deal morally with an immoral entity.
If you trade based on what other people say, you will lose money. Especially what I say. I won't be held responsible. Festina lente.
Asimov
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For short version, start reading on page 11 at "Effects of Portuguese Decriminalization", it's all worth reading though.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/wtpapers/greenw....

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It's justifiably immoral to deal morally with an immoral entity.
If you trade based on what other people say, you will lose money. Especially what I say. I won't be held responsible. Festina lente.

Duc888
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....well, the flip side is this: Imagine for a moment the MILLIONS of low to mid level drug dealers both in rural and urban areas of our country with NO source of income if drugs were legalized. There are lots of unemployed and unemployable people who deal drugs and put food on the table that way.

Oh my. LOL What to do then?

Put them on goobermint assistance?

Disclosure:

I'm all for legalizing ALL drugs and let the chips fall where they may. Everything, Coke, heroin, Pot, Acid... EVERYTHING. Let each person be the master of their own universe.

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...burp
Poid
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Portugal is largely ignored Asi, because it has been successful. 99% of people would be completely unaware of it.

Drugs are illegal for any number of reasons: they make the govt money (both US and foreign), they create more laws and hence more criminals (if you are breaking a law, the govt has more control over you...govt only fears free citizens), they make the military-industrial complex money, they make the banks money etc etc

None of it has anything to do with actually keeping people safe, or preventing harm.

Unfortunately drugs are such a politicised issue now that if you even suggest de-criminalisation, let alone legalisation, you are looked at like you just pulled your cock out and started swinging. Any rational conversation at that point goes out the window.
Poodlelover
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It's atrocious what's going on in Mexico. The US shares some of the blame, but not all. North of the border we aren't creating this stuff or committing all these crimes. The drug war is not all impotent. I, for example, have no idea right now if I wanted to where to buy some cocaine. Or, for that matter, marijuana. The war on drugs surely decreases use by some Americans.

A change is needed, though. I'd say let's start by legalizing marijuana. It's really no worse than alcohol and would take a huge chunk out of the illegal drug trade. Frankly, I'm still surprised people who want to smoke weed don't grow it themselves for personal use, but alas they don't and so weed is responsible for a massive portion of this and it could be taken out.
Hirooonoda
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Nice try, Asimov. Mexico already decriminalized hard-drugs for personal use and possession.

What happened as a result? The violence got worse.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/21....

Of course the "legalize it now" crowd won't own up to their failed predictions that said legalization would result in fewer deaths, not more.

Wake up, people. This isn't about drugs violence (it is to some micro degree), this is insurrection-level violence and until you people realize this the US interest will continue to lose in Mexico.

Chavez is hell-bent on destabilizing Mexico. Wake up and smell the coffee beans.
Genesis
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It got worse because while there's no money in it there, the money is STILL in it transporting it HERE.

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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
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What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Asimov
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What genesis said.

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It's justifiably immoral to deal morally with an immoral entity.
If you trade based on what other people say, you will lose money. Especially what I say. I won't be held responsible. Festina lente.
Pietertvl
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Yup.

FWIW, these massacres are no longer being confined to members of the rival gangs, if they ever were even to this point. Migrant workers have reportedly been the victims in some instances.

For a brief time, I lived down in the Lake Chapala area near Guadalajara, where up to 40,000 US and Canadian expats reside, and where this report was filed from last week. Many if not all of the victims appeared to have been randomly apprehended from the general population.

http://guadalajarareporter.com/news-main....


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"All the perplexities, confusion and distresses in America arise not from defects in the constitution or confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, as much from downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit, and circulation." ~ John Adams

Rjsasko
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I'm all for legalization. But first all government assistance of any kind becomes unavailable to current users and those permanently f'ed up from narcotics are forever barred from welfare of any way/shape/form. No food stamps, no Section 8 rent assistance, no Social Security Disability,...absolutely NOTHING. I've seen what drugs do up close and those of you who think marijuana is just fine and a good place to start legalization are full of it. My brother got so f'ed up at age 14 he ended up on SSDI until he died. I've worked with guys who have smoked so much pot they couldn't get two brain cells to fire at the same time.

Is legalization worth it to get rid of all of the violence? Absolutely. We need the tax revenue too. Are there going to lots of f'ed up people because of legalization? Absolutely. All of you that want the personal responsibility to do whatever you want you better first demand the personal responsibility to live with the consequences or you are full of it.
Genesis
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I have no problem with that provided that it includes no SSDI, Section 8 or other assistance for any personal choice-caused ailment or problem.

Fat? No help.
HIV from ass****ing (or just plain ****ing)? No help.
Drugs? No help.
Booze? No help.
Smoking? No help.

Now this doesn't stop any organization from providing CHARITY care. That's their call and they can discriminate if they want, or not if they want.

You ARE for this ban on public assistance no matter the personal choice that led to the problem, right?

(That is, you're not a bigot, right?)

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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Vitchilo
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Before that happens, you need to remove the drug dealers at the CIA, the private prison industry running a lot of states, the cops unions profiting from this war (bribes, jobs, money), the politicians who still want to keep this going for using it as a reason for whatever they want and finally the police state industry.

And then all the control freaks out there who want to control everyone's behavior and (mostly women) the crowd who ``want to protect the children``.

When you include all these people, that's a lot of money and lots of people who work hard for the war on drugs to continue.

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Iamedwardteach
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Drug War! HA, that’s a laugh. There is no “Drug War”. If there was a drug war, 95% of marijuana and opium based drugs would be eradicated in a few months. Those fields are huge and their locations are well known. (Before you say the US can’t eradicate a poppy field in a sovereign country, ask yourself whey we can carpet bomb the same country with impunity, in a vain attempt to kill 1 alCIAda terrorist.) The supply would dry up in a few months and the cost would be so prohibitive that only bankers and politicians could afford to get high.
Drug traffickers would have to fight over ounces rather than tons. Street corner drug dealers would go out of business. Drug related crime at the street level would be a memory. Cops would eventually stop searching suspects for drugs, as the possibility of a street thug having a $10,000 dollar joint would be ridiculously insane.
No there is no drug war. There is only the illegalization of drugs, to enlarge the state and collect the profit from those caught in it’s snare. The war on drugs is an allusion, meant to placate the masses, while they are stripped of their wealth, liberty and freedom.
Personally I don’t think the state should dictate what drug is legal and what drug is illegal. The state forces 8 year olds onto Ritalin for acting up in class, at the same time they are breaking down granny’s door for using marijuana to help her cope with her glaucoma. (After they shoot her dog that is.)
If anything this is a War on the Gullibility of the American people. We all know who’s winning, don’t we.

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Asimov
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Iam: While I agree with you in general, getting rid of any large percentage of the pot crop would be pretty much impossible. It's a weed. It'll grow anywhere.

Poppies are considerably more sensitive to climate though, and while I still think 95% is high, you could certainly wipe out a larger percentage than we do now.

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It's justifiably immoral to deal morally with an immoral entity.
If you trade based on what other people say, you will lose money. Especially what I say. I won't be held responsible. Festina lente.
Jdough
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The drug war is also class warfare from the top down...imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever.
Iamedwardteach
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True, marijuana is a weed and will grow just about anywhere but you have to consider the actual size, and scale of the problem. These pot fields are so large they are filmed from satellites. As for small patches, one plant gives off a distinctive heat signature when flown over by Side looking inferred radar. Not to mention intelligence gathering, If it were a real war, intelligence gathering would be able to find most of the growers on the planet.

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"FACT: WHEN THE DRAFT OF YOUR VESSEL EXCEEDS THE DEPTH OF THE WATER, YOU ARE MOST ASSUREDLY... AGROUND!"
Hirooonoda
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Sorry, the entire premise of legalization in Mexico was "legalize it and the violence will decrease."

Didn't happen.

You guys are in denial as to the source of the violence.
Dakine2004
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No, not Vince Barnett and Paul Muni...!
Hirooonoda
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You want to stop the illegal drug trade? Just start piking the dealers and use some middle east justice on the drug users and the problem will be solved.

Genesis
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No I'm not.

The source of the violence is profitable trade (money.) Guns, ammunition, cars, gasoline, grenades, etc all cost money. Serious firepower costs LOTS of money.

Cocaine has a per-OUNCE (not gram) production cost under $10. Marijuana has a per-POUND (not ounce) production cost under $10. I could not smoke a pound of marijuana in a month if all I did was smoke marijuana and such an attempt would be self-limiting as I'd shortly expire from failure to eat, drink,***** or ****. Yet that would only buy roughly TWENTY bullets for most rifles and is less than 1/50th of the cost of a rifle or quality handgun itself.

It is only because the drugs are illegal that there is enough PROFIT in the trade to pay for the tools necessary to commit the violence.

This is the lesson of Prohibition; drinking did not decrease when it was repealed but suddenly there was no money to buy weapons and ammunition.

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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Flaps10
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Al Capone was a hack compared to the people running cartels now.

Let's see, who benefits from the fake drug war:

Cartel members become filthy rich
LEO gets new toys and huge budgets
Hollywood gets to make movies sensationalizing drug gangs and cops
Politicians campaign about the "war on drugs" (who's going to take the other side of that argument?)
Street corner punks make more money than their friends with actual jobs
Some guy gets high in his own house

If drugs became legal then most of the Escalades in my neighborhood would be repo'd in 90 days.

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"Better to die on your feet than live on your knees"
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