Hoh Hoh Hoh.... Tickerguy on Education Again Right?
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2012-05-13 15:50
by Karl Denninger
in Education
Ignore this thread
Hoh Hoh Hoh.... Tickerguy on Education Again Right?
 

Well well what do we have here?

Ms. Griffith, 23, wouldn’t seem a perfect financial fit for a college that costs nearly $50,000 a year. Her father, a paramedic, and mother, a preschool teacher, have modest incomes, and she has four sisters. But when she visited Ohio Northern, she was won over by faculty and admissions staff members who urge students to pursue their dreams rather than obsess on the sticker price.

“As an 18-year-old, it sounded like a good fit to me, and the school really sold it,” said Ms. Griffith, a marketing major. “I knew a private school would cost a lot of money. But when I graduate, I’m going to owe like $900 a month. No one told me that.”

Sold it eh?  Kind of like a drug pusher sells his dope, right?

The "benefits" (you'll get high) are always mentioned but the costs (your teeth will rot out or you'll have a heart attack!) aren't.  In this case you'll get a degree (ok), but whether you'll get a job and whether your job will make the payments affordable are, well, not quite as fairly discussed.

But its roots are in fact deep, and the cast of contributing characters — including college marketing officers, state lawmakers wielding a budget ax and wide-eyed students and families — has been enabled by a basic economic dynamic: an insatiable demand for a college education, at almost any price, and plenty of easy-to-secure loans, primarily from the federal government.

Hmmm.... "easy money" chases goods and services and what happens?  The price goes up!

Duh.

And are the risks fairly disclosed?

Much like the mortgage brokers who promised pain-free borrowing to homeowners just a few years back, many colleges don’t offer warnings about student debt in the glossy brochures and pitch letters mailed to prospective students. Instead, reading from the same handbook as for-profit colleges, they urge students not to worry about the costs. That’s because most students don’t pay full price.

Oh that's nice.

Ninety-four percent of students who earn a bachelor’s degree borrow to pay for higher education — up from 45 percent in 1993, according to an analysis by The New York Times of the latest data from the Department of Education. This includes loans from the federal government, private lenders and relatives.

This is what I said about the problem in Leverage (look to the right, click and buy):

With banks and the government smug in the knowledge that they could hound students forever, cheap, below-market interest rate loans showed up literally everywhere, including direct government subsidized programs such as the Stafford student loan. The flood of cheap money caused more people to apply to go to college than there were slots in colleges for incoming freshmen. That shortage of available student capacity caused colleges to construct new buildings, renovate dorms and, of course, raise prices. The basic economics of supply and demand asserted themselves as the creation of artificial demand through cheap money policies drove prices higher. This was all to everyone’s benefit since we now had more students going to college, right?

Not quite.

....

Our young people are frequently deceived by various counselors and there’s no evidence that the High Schools in this nation spend any amount of time on this subject. There is no clear disclosure in the various financial aid packages explaining how to work the financial ratios that apply to these loan programs and what happens to you when you graduate with a mountain of student debt and the likely salary range you will have to pay it back with. There is even less disclosure about the fact that such a debt load will make you instantly ineligible for a standard home mortgage.

....

We should not accept our youth remaining uninformed of the fact that if they go into debt for their college education that debt is not dischargeable in bankruptcy due to the very lenders and schools demanding special status under the law.

That's an excerpt, but you get the point.

Don't do it.

Incidentally, the full article linked above is well-worth reading.  The mainstream media may be very late on this (Leverage was published in November of 2011 and I've been writing on this for years) but this is one of the first times I've seen an actual mainstream media piece in which the institutions involved in funneling the students into the colleges -- the schools themselves and various counselors and departments -- are fingered as part of the problem.

It's about damn time.

Discussion below (registration required to post)
 

Main Navigation
Full-Text Search & Archives
Archive Access
Get Adobe Flash player





Blogtalk 3:30 CT Mondays
Items To Look At


Discuss The Capital Markets along with daily technical analysis with our Gold Donor program.

Where We Are, Where We're Heading (2013) - The annual 2013 Ticker

Links and Blogroll
Our policy on reciprocal links: Send us an email with your information and why you think your blog or news site would make a good addition - in most cases reciprocal link requests will be granted.
Seeking Alpha Certified
Legal Disclaimer

The content on this site is provided without any warranty, express or implied. All opinions expressed on this site are those of the author and may contain errors or omissions.

NO MATERIAL HERE CONSTITUTES "INVESTMENT ADVICE" NOR IS IT A RECOMMENDATION TO BUY OR SELL ANY FINANCIAL INSTRUMENT, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO STOCKS, OPTIONS, BONDS OR FUTURES.

The author may have a position in any company or security mentioned herein. Actions you undertake as a consequence of any analysis, opinion or advertisement on this site are your sole responsibility.

Looking for "The Best of Market Ticker"? Check out
Ticker Classics.

Visit the forum to discuss this and other investing-related topics; see the FAQ on the forum for information about Gold Donor status including access to our technical analysis video server.

Market charts, when present, used with permission of TD Ameritrade/ThinkOrSwim Inc. Neither TD Ameritrade or ThinkOrSwim have reviewed, approved or disapproved any content herein.

Market Ticker content may be reproduced or excerpted online provided full attribution is given and the original article source is linked to. Please contact Karl Denninger for reprint permission in other media.

Submissions may be sent "over the transom" to The Editor at any time. To be considered for publication your submission must include full and correct contact information and be related to an economic or political matter of the day. All submissions become the property of The Market Ticker.

Leads on stories of current economic and political interest are always welcome. Our fax tip line is 850-897-9364; please include contact information with your transmission.

 
Comments.......
User: Not logged on
Login Register Top Blog Top Blog Topics FAQ
Showing Page 1 of 2  First12Last
User Info Hoh Hoh Hoh.... Tickerguy on Education Again Right? in forum [Market-Ticker]
Swingtrader
Posts: 9108
Incept: 2007-08-12
Green
United Oligarchic Goldman Sachs States of America
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
A lot of applicants are snookered by their Financial Aid Award!

The "financial aid package" is presented as what they are Awarded

And it is a pretty complex package, with a lot they don't understand. In there, they are told about the loans, along with the rest of their "award!"

They have to sign (on-line) one "master promissory note", then each semester/year, the college just keeps "awarding" more loans - on that one initial master promissory note.

Receipt of additional "award" letters in future periods is all that is required to keep "awarding" loans.

----------
Swing said "Well, it is collapsing as we watch.This is what it looks like." Australian federal judge Jayne Jagot, doing what US judges need to do!

Widgeon
Posts: 13481
Incept: 2007-08-30
Green
Region formerly known as the United States
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
This is an even better criminal scam that the housing bubble (better for the crooks). I just don't think there is any way the criminal financiers are going to let go of their grip on this "program" any time soon ... their payoff and leverage w/ these youngsters is simply too much.
Grumpy_bear
Posts: 606
Incept: 2008-02-26
Green
More SRS please Mistress!
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Quote:
There is even less disclosure about the fact that such a debt load will make you instantly ineligible for a standard home mortgage.

Anyone thinking we're at a housing market price bottom with this generation of debt slaves already collared and shackled with non-dischargable debt up to their eyeballs even before they try to start families and purchase houses? Zandi, you can put your hand down. I know, I know, we've been at a housing bottom for five years now...


----------
Denninger, Karl. Leverage: how cheap money will destroy the world. Hoboken: John Wiley & Sons, Inc., 2012. p. 126, par. 3.
Lowbeyond
Posts: 16869
Incept: 2008-02-11
Green A True American Patriot!
CO aka West NJ/East CA
Online
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Quote:
But when I graduate, I’m going to owe like $900 a month. No one told me that.”

What a dumb bitch. No one told you that? Go **** yourself

----------
Maybe it was a birdy bread-bomber from the future?!
Cvdoc
Posts: 163
Incept: 2009-06-11

Washington, DC
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
I have to agree with Lowbeyond minus the b-word. I'm getting tired of hearing all these people saying they didn't know. Grow up. Next they will want forgiveness for their stupidity.

----------
Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master.
Sallust
Antone
Posts: 7660
Incept: 2008-02-03
Green
Seditionia, USSA
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
No ****. The lack of personal accountability is what's killing western civilization. Everyone wants to find a scapegoat for their problems when they refuse to look in the mirror.

----------
As if anything has changed:

Wir sind gefickt.
Enapa
Posts: 1161
Incept: 2008-01-25

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
They dont seriously think that owing 100k is goin to be like $50 a month do they?
Swingtrader
Posts: 9108
Incept: 2007-08-12
Green
United Oligarchic Goldman Sachs States of America
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
posters wrote..
What a dumb bitch. No one told you that? ....I have to agree with Lowbeyond minus the b-word. I'm getting tired of hearing all these people saying they didn't know.


Actually, most of them probably didn't know. And are suckers for trusting the Universities, Colleges and Financial Aid Offices of those institutions.

These are lambs being led to slaughter. They can't believe the University they love ( or think they are going to love) will smile at them and shaft them so royally.

This is every bit as much a scam as Vinyl siding, Asphalt patching the driveway, and other scams of the elderly. The Elderly don't believe this nice man would scam them and the prospective students don't believe this "great university" will rip them off.

The students have been told all of their lives, this is what they must do and college is placed on a pedestal by their parents and all of their teachers for the last 12 years.

These young people have not learned the hard lessons of life, and they are learning this one royally.

Most of them do not know, and the true cost and reality are essentially not being disclosed to them. And all their life, their parents and their teachers have placed these "colleges" above reproach.

They keep getting these "award letters" and each one keeps adding to the total, and the total goes higher and higher.

Granted, a lot of it is due to them "not wanting to know until the bill comes due" but the sole burden of blame should not be placed on them alone. The Institutions of Higher Education are equally guilty.

It's sad.

----------
Swing said "Well, it is collapsing as we watch.This is what it looks like." Australian federal judge Jayne Jagot, doing what US judges need to do!

Widgeon
Posts: 13481
Incept: 2007-08-30
Green
Region formerly known as the United States
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
I agree w/ Swing. I suspect too that actual disclosure of the "final" costs of these loans to the students is seriously lacking ... naive kids are a marketers dream audience. The scope of this crime, beginning w/ high pressure and continuous programming that occurs as early as kindergarten, is breathtaking.


Themortgagedude
Posts: 8846
Incept: 2007-12-17
Green
saint louis
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't owe more on your college debt than your first years salary. You should be able to pay it off in the number of years it took you to earn the degreee. I think if you made the debts dischargable in BK you would end up about where I'm talking because no banker would loan the money under less favorable terms.

----------
I'm already visualizing you with duct tape over your mouth.
Jstanley01
Posts: 8176
Incept: 2008-07-30
Silver A True American Patriot!
San Antonio, Texas
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
FIFY...
Quote:
Her father, a paramedic dumbass, and mother, a preschool teacher dumbass...
Leveraged to the hilt themselves with credit card debt and an underwater mortgage, no doubt.

----------
You can't cheat an honest man. ~P.T. Barnum

Lowbeyond
Posts: 16869
Incept: 2008-02-11
Green A True American Patriot!
CO aka West NJ/East CA
Online
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
swing wrote..

This is every bit as much a scam as Vinyl siding, Asphalt patching the driveway, and other scams of the elderly. The Elderly don't believe this nice man would scam them and the prospective students don't believe this "great university" will rip them off.

Belief like hope is not an investment strategy.
swing wrote..
Granted, a lot of it is due to them "not wanting to know until the bill comes due" but the sole burden of blame should not be placed on them alone. The Institutions of Higher Education are equally guilty.

I'd say they are guilty from selling a dream much like realtors/car salesmen.

However it is the person, who is a legal adult, that signs their name. And if they do not know wtf they are signing well sucks to be them, that is their sole responsibility.

No one will help you if you do not first take a minimal step to help yourself.

I actually dont give two ****s about this girl personally maybe shes a nice girl maybe shes smart. But if you are an adult, and your only excuse is no other person told me. Well go suck on a rock - your an idiot

inline


----------
Maybe it was a birdy bread-bomber from the future?!
Antone
Posts: 7660
Incept: 2008-02-03
Green
Seditionia, USSA
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Agree with Low. Yes, the institutions have as much blame as realtors/bankers/car or snakeoil salesmen, but at the end, it is the person that signs the dotted line's responsibility to know what they are signing. No one is forcing them to take on this debt.

----------
As if anything has changed:

Wir sind gefickt.
Swingtrader
Posts: 9108
Incept: 2007-08-12
Green
United Oligarchic Goldman Sachs States of America
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Widgeon wrote..
actual disclosure of the "final" costs of these loans to the students is seriously lacking ... naive kids are a marketers dream audience. The scope of this crime, beginning w/ high pressure and continuous programming that occurs as early as kindergarten, is breathtaking.


Woman that works with me, went with her son to University of Tennessee orientation. They would not even let the parents go into the financial aid interview with the student.

The colleges meet the legal requirements, but not the moral obligations.

The students are signing right and left, filling out forms right and left - there is slight of hand, misdirection, razzle dazzle and the promise of this bright future that your parents, all of your friends, all your teachers all agree is what you need to do.

You sign on-line one master promissory note, that's it.

These kids are overwhelmed with the details, and focusing on their wonderful payoff that they hope to have with their lives. They have been indoctrinated since kindergarten that this is what they are supposed to do.

Huge scam.

Hey, they go cheer on the team, they are living the good life - how could this possibly go wrong or be something other than the panacea they have been promised all of their lives.

----------
Swing said "Well, it is collapsing as we watch.This is what it looks like." Australian federal judge Jayne Jagot, doing what US judges need to do!
Raftermanfmj
Posts: 3330
Incept: 2010-09-06
Green
USA
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Quote:
And are suckers for trusting the Universities, Colleges and Financial Aid Offices of those institutions.


People seem to automatically trust anyone in a suit or a uniform. The smart will learn not to trust based on such things while the dumb will learn after being financially raped or being served with a protective beat-down.

The value of this malignant cynicism cannot be overstated - well 900 dollars per month is a bit high.

----------
I have never wished to cater to the crowd; for what I know they do not approve, and what they approve I do not know. - Epicurus
Oderint dum metuant - Caligula & Police State USA
Lowbeyond
Posts: 16869
Incept: 2008-02-11
Green A True American Patriot!
CO aka West NJ/East CA
Online
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Quote:

Woman that works with me, went with her son to University of Tennessee orientation. They would not even let the parents go into the financial aid interview with the student.

They are trying to sell you something. Don't Let ? Well then no deal. Walk.

Quote:
These kids are overwhelmed with the details, and focusing on their wonderful payoff that they hope to have with their lives. They have been indoctrinated since kindergarten that this is what they are supposed to do.

Well that is true. But there are many things like that - see i must "own" a house for another one.

TANSTAAFL is a simple principal. However people seem to want to believe it is not true.

The first sentence reads like a we dream to the worker at the back room finance office at a car dealer.


----------
Maybe it was a birdy bread-bomber from the future?!

Swingtrader
Posts: 9108
Incept: 2007-08-12
Green
United Oligarchic Goldman Sachs States of America
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
sure, they are idiots. Just like the old folks who get sucked in on the scams.

The old folks are our past, the young folks are our future.

And they are getting scammed.

Once you realize
KD wrote..
in which the institutions involved in funneling the students into the colleges -- the schools themselves and various counselors and departments --
are scamming them, then you are getting a wider clarity on the matter.

----------
Swing said "Well, it is collapsing as we watch.This is what it looks like." Australian federal judge Jayne Jagot, doing what US judges need to do!
Lowbeyond
Posts: 16869
Incept: 2008-02-11
Green A True American Patriot!
CO aka West NJ/East CA
Online
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
i have clarity on the matter. It is a scam. A giant bubble.

However the scammer needs someone to scam.

The sole defense this girl seems to have is someone else should have told her. Lack of basic DD will allow you to be sheered like a sheep. And she allowed herself to be sheered.

Again, she is an adult, we are not talking about a 10 yr old child


----------
Maybe it was a birdy bread-bomber from the future?!
Pookie
Posts: 260
Incept: 2009-06-18
Green
Florida
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
They're not just sticking it to the kids...they're sticking it to ALL of us. Any of these kids can go work for the government or a non-profit for 10 years and have their debt erased.

And guess who's paying that bill.

----------
Once you admit that the individual is merely a means to serve the ends of the higher entity called society or the nation, most of those features of totalitarian regimes which horrify us follow of necessity. --F.A. Hayek
Widgeon
Posts: 13481
Incept: 2007-08-30
Green
Region formerly known as the United States
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
I agree w/ both "sides" and absolve neither. However, I place the greatest responsibility on those that know better and, at some level (U Presidents, Finance Offices, etc.) know w/ certainty what they are doing.

It also doesn't help development of the "young girl's " critical thinking faculty to see bad decisions continually rewarded. How many "homeowners" have been living 'mortgage-free' for several years now? Bad decisions and choices are where the rewards are ... that's current social policy.

Widgeon
Posts: 13481
Incept: 2007-08-30
Green
Region formerly known as the United States
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Quote:
Any of these kids can go work for the government or a non-profit for 10 years and have their debt erased.



That's a "new program" ... right? Time will tell if it ends that way or if the rules are changed. My bet is on the rules being changed.
Duc888
Posts: 7368
Incept: 2008-11-06
Gold
CT, the UNconstitution State
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
HOLY ****!!!!!!


$900 a month the day you graduate?

HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

....is all I have to say.

Welcome to the machine!

----------
...burp
Malachor
Posts: 31
Incept: 2011-05-10

Illinois
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Parents owe their children the truth about student loan debt and sitting down with them and going over the numbers before you give up the Parent part of the financial information required by FAFSA.

In our case, my daughter went to a community college for two years. Between her part time job and my contributions, we did not accept any Federal Student loans.When she transferred to a university to complete her degree, her part-time work and my contributions were not enough to meet the tuition. So we sat down and looked at how much we could contribute and how much she would have to borrow.

I will point out that I had sufficient income to pay her university tuition but only at the cost of not preparing for my own retirement. I told her I was unwilling to do that.

At this point she is a senior with one more year to go for her degree. She will have around $15,000 in federal loan debt when she graduates. She knows to the penny(at current interest rates), what she will have to pay back. She knows this because I spent the time to show her on-line payment calculators and made her go through it with me before I would give up the 1040 information.

I posted this not to brag on myself since I should have prepared better for her college years when she was younger but to point out that kids need their parents to plan out debt with them if you both feel the need to go down this road.

Reason: Spelling
Weezie
Posts: 6066
Incept: 2008-05-19
Gold A True American Patriot!
Caution: Congress at Work
Online
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
I taught a simple 'financial literacy' class for some teens at my homeschooling co-op.

One of the main topics were loans - what they were, how payments were calculated and how much interest they'd pay.

I walked them through a scenario. They graduated from college with $40K of debt at 6.5% interest payable over 10 years, but have a job paying $35K. We set up a budget, took out taxes, rent, utilites and then calculated the loan specifics. Their eyes widened when they figured out that they'd be working just on subsistance, no real 'fun' money.



----------
The election is not a way to have a voice in government, but rather an impotent declaration if we prefer ketchup or mustard on our **** sandwich.
Login Register Top Blog Top Blog Topics FAQ
Showing Page 1 of 2  First12Last