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| Another State Fraud Unwinding (Tobacco Bonds) in forum [Market-Ticker]
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Flappingeagle
Posts: 1249
Incept: 2011-04-14
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Quote:What happened here is that the states "sold forward" the cash flow from the tobacco settlement... This leads to a concept that I dearly wish I would have understood 20 (ok 30) years ago. In the 70 year or so credit boom/bust cycle that we are going thru, if you are on the boom side of the cycle it is foolish to build up cash, hoping to pay cash for something. Because of the boom nature of the cycle (where money is being created at a fast rate) prices will often go up much faster than you can save. Therefore, it is better to buy on credit and thus lock in the current price. State and especially local governments realized this and that is why they did bonds like crazy, the elected officials realized that when they waited a year and built up cash for a project that they actually lost ground, so they turned to debt. The same thing happened to me. I saved like crazy wanting to buy a nice farm to live on but, for every dollar I saved the price of the farm I wanted went up by $5. I lost ground while saving like crazy. Had I just went ahead and bought it 20 years ago I would have had it paid off before the crash. :( But, that does lead to the next part doesn't it. Having debt is (kind of) ok if you are on the upslope of the credit cycle. If you have it past the peak it becomes the definition of problematic. This whole mess is why I like Karl's one-dollar-of-capital idea. It will prevent the credit cycle from having such a large amplitude and thus preseve the value of the save-and-pay cash strategy of life. Flap
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Here are my predictions for everyone to see: S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu. "You can't build a house of cards on a shaking table." - Tony Johns The January 2015 AMZN put at $130 (cost $4.25) will be a winner.
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Grashopa
Posts: 2696
Incept: 2009-02-03
Online
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Quote: This whole mess is why I like Karl's one-dollar-of-capital idea. It will prevent the credit cycle from having such a large amplitude and thus preseve the value of the save-and-pay cash strategy of life.
What a great post Flap. Explains the whole problem perfectly. I've been having trouble explaining why inflation is bad to people - I'm not sure why the instability is so hard to understand. Think of the people who can't save in your same scenario of inflation.
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Theft is evil
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Raftermanfmj
Posts: 3564
Incept: 2010-09-06
USA
Online
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This settlement was one of the key things that awoke me to how demonic our 'system' is, for it forced tobacco companies who had done nothing to incur charges nor the settlement to pay into the fund as well.
To be clear, companies that were not part of the lawsuit were forced at gunpoint to be robbed by the settlement, signed by the big corporations.
Further, any completely new company that formed, would ALSO be held to the settlement. This was literally unbelievable to me. Was a real revelation as to how things actually worked in the USSA.
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I have never wished to cater to the crowd; for what I know they do not approve, and what they approve I do not know. - Epicurus Oderint dum metuant - Caligula & Police State USA
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Wineaux
Posts: 533
Incept: 2009-03-23
pure Liquid pleasure
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Quote: prevent the credit cycle from having such a large amplitude There is nothing inherently wrong with the boom to bust cycle provided you let the free market sort out the winners and losers. In fact you need these cycles to allow the next in line entrepreneurs a shot at success. The problem comes in when the bust occurs and the government steps in and picks winners and losers thus giving the middle finger to the free market. It occurs on the way up as well when the government permits the boom based on fraud. The end result seems to be the same, the rich become super rich and the one's who aspire to be the next entrepreneurs are defanged by same government. The rest of the peasants starve.
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What wine goes with unemployment?
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Nomullet
Posts: 6934
Incept: 2007-11-11
SW
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You are telling me states take out 'payday loans'? That's pathetic!
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Don't confuse clear thinking with simplistic thinking. --Nomullet
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Dazedncornfused
Posts: 326
Incept: 2010-10-13
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Here in Michigan, this income stream was bonded out, twice. "Selling bonds!, it's not like borrowing money." Quoting a local city manager :).
The other thing is only the legacy tobacco dealers were subject to the deal. They supposedly engaged in false advertising a la the Marlboro Man and doctor testimonials. Notwithstanding I remember my dad and uncles quit cold turkey when the Surgeon General reports hit the papers in the mid 60s.
The exempt cigarettes always advertised that their products caused cancer. I saw brands named Coffin Nails and Death's Head (I never smoked, mostly because my dad beat that idea out of me in junior high) the last time I traveled the DelMarVa peninsula just north of the bridge, selling for 75 cents a pack. The legacy tax revenue brands just don't compete.
And about 18 months ago new taxation laws kicked in making 5 pound bulk pack PIPE tobacco redonkulously cheap. My smoking friends started packing that into ciggie tubes and they tell me these taste much better than any brand they could buy at the lottery ticket counter in the store. I take their word for it.
Now that smoking is cheap because of the Ziplock bulk pipe tobacco, I'm betting the savings is spent on - tada - lottery tickets.
And that is my take on the perversity of unintended consequences.
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Stand up and be counted or line up and be numbered.
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Smacktle
Posts: 1370
Incept: 2009-01-20
Texas
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Smoke em if you got em!
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The faults of the burglar are the qualities of the financier. - George Bernard Shaw
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Throxxofvron
Posts: 10448
Incept: 2009-02-17
Hyper-Speculative Psycho-Facsistic Parabolic Blow-Off
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Quote:What happened here is that the states "sold forward" the cash flow from the tobacco settlement predicated on smoking continuing to increase in prevalence while at the same time raising taxes and taking other actions to deter smoking. Let's make this simple: The Bond Holders were robbed.The money to pay out on their 'Tobacco Bonds' was simply stolen when the taxes on cigarettes were increased and the amount that SHOULD HAVE BEEN set aside from the tax/income stream to make the Tobacco Bond payments was NOT set aside to make the Tobacco Bond payments -and instead was diverted into 'General Funds' and spent.The Government simply stole the Bond payments by subordinating the Tobacco Bond payments to their 'new' taxes on tobacco products. Tobacco would be insanely cheap if ALL the various taxes and .GOV thievery associated with it were rescinded. BIG Tobacco makes way more money selling into Foreign Markets ( likely another story of tax avoidance retarding the repatriation of profits ). The Chinese -for one instance- really like smoking...
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DIONYSUS: " Thou hast no knowledge of the life thou art leading; thy very existence is now a mystery to thee. " -from 'The Bacchantes' By Euripides “During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.” -George Orwell
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Phxkevin
Posts: 357
Incept: 2010-06-25
Phoenix Arizona
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Sort of off topic, but I think the state should encourage smoking - we need to cut the life span, and this is an acceptable and traditional way of doing it. Obviously, the states are beholden to the tobacco companies now, and any drop in receipts from the tobacco companies will be a double whammy (on income and on ability to pay bond holders)
Taxes on Tobacco were supposed to be tied to specific funds, but they make their way in the states general fund.
It seems that everything has been financialized (or Fictionalized) and nothing is the way it seems.
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Congress persons are all the same, republican or democrat, conservative or liberal. They talk a good game, but the results (or lack thereof) show something different.
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Peterm99
Posts: 5179
Incept: 2009-03-21
SoCal
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I'm sure this is not a problem. All of the bond purchasers surely bought plenty of Credit Default Swaps to protect themselves against the possibility of the states not being able to make good on the bonds.
/sarc
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". . . the Constitution has died, the economy welters in irreversible decline, we have perpetual war, all power lies in the hands of the executive, the police are supreme, and a surveillance beyond Orwell’s imaginings falls into place." - Fred Reed
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Bertdilbert
Posts: 2694
Incept: 2008-12-22
CA
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I never saw the brains behind being reliant on tobacco taxes, and at the same time having programs to stop tobacco use, along with banning tobacco use in numerous places which decline state revenues!
I always thought of the irony of state employees in the business of doing anti smoking campaigns, where if you were actually successful in getting everyone to quit, you would be out of a job ha ha.
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Dear Euroland: Relax, Germany has a plan for your money!
Political Capital Defined: We are out of money but will tax our citizens for whatever it takes to "SAVE" the Euro.
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Widgeon
Posts: 13481
Incept: 2007-08-30
Region formerly known as the United States
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Probably the same issue arises with respect to states selling their tollway income?
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Morla
Posts: 841
Incept: 2009-11-09
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I suppose it costs less to pay cancer bonds than to stop using cheap radioactive fertilizer.. Oh well, keep in mind a lot of the "deterrent" legislation nowadays is actively lobbied for by Altria to crush smaller competitors.
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"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." -George Washington
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Creditcalmass
Posts: 1638
Incept: 2008-06-04
New Englands Rising Star
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Well, the tobacco companies have also withheld several billion dollars due to states under the MSA...hence the distressed situation. But yes, the projections used were asinine and insane.
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"True strength lies in gentleness"
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Sailordeek
Posts: 557
Incept: 2011-06-08
Boston
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Mr. Eddi. Our lawyer to keep us safe... Here is his "little" boat.
//www.bing.com/images/search?q=sheridan+yacht&qpvt=sheridan+yacht&FORM=IGRE
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Jstanley01
Posts: 8282
Incept: 2008-07-30
San Antonio, Texas
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You can't cheat an honest man. ~P.T. Barnum
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Aliveh
Posts: 4055
Incept: 2008-01-18
Los Angeles
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FYI a bunch of muni closed ends funds own tobacco bonds.
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Creditcalmass
Posts: 1638
Incept: 2008-06-04
New Englands Rising Star
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Quote:FYI a bunch of muni closed ends funds own tobacco bonds.
I work in municipal finance. 
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"True strength lies in gentleness"
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Blackswan
Posts: 5591
Incept: 2007-11-06
Just outside of Philly
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Just open more casinos..
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“It’s checkmate. Everywhere it’s checkmate.” Hugh Hendry
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Roundabout
Posts: 54
Incept: 2009-10-16
South Side of the Sky
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I think the states have taken a cue from those (extremely annoying) singing JG Wentworth commercials... "I have a structured settlement and I need cash NOW! Call JG Wentworth, 877-CASH-NOW!"
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Ckaminski
Posts: 1670
Incept: 2011-04-08
Online
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Quote: I've been having trouble explaining why inflation is bad to people I think that for anyone whom this is true, needs to go back to elementary school. I know 7 yo's that can explain inflation to you and why it's bad. WTF.
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