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| Right On Cue..... in forum [Market-Ticker]
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Duc888
Posts: 7368
Incept: 2008-11-06
CT, the UNconstitution State
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...I guess you didn't hear about the German Sub with a nuke that just disappeared. But seriously, I see your point.
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...burp
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Jstanley01
Posts: 8263
Incept: 2008-07-30
San Antonio, Texas
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Unfortunately when nukes are involved, no one has come up with a better way to insure that they won't be used other than MAD. And in the logic of MAD, defensive measures are a threat to the end that they open the window to an adversary for an offensive first strike.
I don't get the bear baiting that's gone on by the West against Russia since the fall of the Soviet Union. Other than trying to foment a war, what's the strategic purpose of it?
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You can't cheat an honest man. ~P.T. Barnum
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Chris11
Posts: 511
Incept: 2008-02-09
Germany
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My take is that every industrialized country has the capability to get a nuke into the white house, if they realy want to get it done. There is no realistic way that this can be safely prevented. However which leader want to do this? History tells us that unlimited numbers of peasants are killed as cannon fodder, but leaders extremely seldom run real risks. Even Iraks leader got killed only after his country was destroyed. Missile defense does not change much of the equation.
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Mac
Posts: 165
Incept: 2009-09-04
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Gen,
How do you say that "politely"?
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Poodlelover
Posts: 152
Incept: 2012-02-02
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This is kind of alarming rhetoric from Russia, honestly. If this was not just a miscue, and becomes an official position of theirs, then what?
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Imajester
Posts: 246
Incept: 2007-08-23
Dallas, TX
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Gen,
You can't beam through shields....have to lower the shields first.
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Genesis
Posts: 131439
Incept: 2007-06-26
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You can't leave shields UP all the time either, because then things like planes, ships and other items can't pass through them.
Therefore you can always beam the core into place "X" since you must always, in order for commerce to take place, lower the shields.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Weetabix
Posts: 8
Incept: 2010-07-28
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This is why I read this site - you boil everything down to its fundamental core, then state it so plainly it can't be misunderstood.
I don't consider myself a wishful thinker, but still sometimes you make me say, "Hm. He's absolutely right."
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Banditfist
Posts: 725
Incept: 2007-09-20
Huntsville, Alabama
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I am part of the military industrial complex and I work specifically on missle defense (integration).
I understand that if you negate an opposing force's offensive capability, they don't like. But, you cannot attack someone's right for self defense either.
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"Are you sure you can't remember?"
"I'm sure I can't remember" ~ Ben Bernake 25 Jun 2009
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Snowman
Posts: 1802
Incept: 2009-03-09
avoiding yellow snow
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Maybe the transporter is coming a bit sooner, once the geeks figure out how to make the Advanced Hypersonic Weapon work without disintegrating. The Russians won't even have the time to send and de-code and authenticate a strike before they get a missile in their samovar.
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Drb
Posts: 195
Incept: 2011-01-02
TX
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Gen -
being initially from E. Europe, I can say that this babble from Russia should not be taken too seriously. It is for internal consumption. Economy sucks over there, and they are continuing the Soviet style propaganda - we are surrounded by enemies, we live in **** because of the evil Western imperialists, tighten your belts so we can build another 10000 tanks etc. There was a joke 25 yrs ago - what are the similarities between Soviet Union and Cupid? Both are naked, armed to teeth, and think that everyone should love them :).
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Mpilar
Posts: 5816
Incept: 2009-01-05
Nashville, TN
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Quote:being initially from E. Europe, I can say that this babble from Russia should not be taken too seriously Yup...speaking from extensive personal experience...just like our own politicians...if a Russian is saying it...it's probably a lie.
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- Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. H. L. Mencken
- These are the times that try men's souls. - T. Paine
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Yermawm
Posts: 214
Incept: 2009-04-20
SoCal
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"You see, if I possess one of those I can use it to transport an active and operating nuclear reactor core inside the Kremlin -- or the White House."
Careful there KD. "They" are watching.
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"We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality." - Ayn Rand
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Flaps10
Posts: 5353
Incept: 2008-10-17
seattle
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Quote:I understand that if you negate an opposing force's offensive capability, they don't like. But, you cannot attack someone's right for self defense either. That's a logical argument, not a fact. Stomping on your 2A rights happens all the time.
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"Better to die on your feet than live on your knees"
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Genesis
Posts: 131439
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Yermawn wrote.."You see, if I possess one of those I can use it to transport an active and operating nuclear reactor core inside the Kremlin -- or the White House."
Careful there KD. "They" are watching. Let 'em. The device in question is a figment of science fiction, at least today, but any spook who doesn't understand what could be done with one if and when it's invented is too stupid to remain in the employ of the government doing that job.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Eleua
Posts: 14140
Incept: 2007-07-05
N 47.72/ W 122.55
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We are already vulnerable to this kind of attack. The al-Brothers need the following:
-Nuke device
-Lear Jet
-53' truck
-warehouse
-Mexican bribe
-Flight plan for Tetoboro.
They get the nuke into Mexico. That should be easy enough in that narco-Economuy. They get a driver to drive the gadget into the US on NAFTA paperwork. Say they are importing agave, or auto parts, who knows?
Drive it to Tennessee, or some such place and make a delivery at a small airstrip. Load the jet. File for New York. On approach to the airport, turn right and fly over Manhattan.
Allah Akbar!
We would never see it coming and our PC biases would not distinguish between the al-Brothers and the ez-Amigos.
On Russia...
I'd like to see them preemptively attack a NATO country. With what? If they want to start flinging canned sunshine, the world ends. To their south, they have 1.3 billion Chinese, 1.1 billion Indians+Himalayas, 500 million Arabs. To their East, they have a ocean they can't control because the world's largest navy contols it. To their West they have 1 billion fairly well defended Euros.
They have 146 million people. They are outnumberd 7:1 no matter where they turn.
The European missile shield is a natural response to the only things Russia has that threaten Europe.
Attacking Georgia is one thing. Attacking the Czech Republic or Poland is quite another.
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http://clearcutbainbridge.blogspot.com/"My object in life is to dethrone God and destroy capitalism." - Karl Marx "Destroy the family, you destroy the country." - Lenin "Education is a weapon whose effects depend on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." - Stalin
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Sushihorn
Posts: 7802
Incept: 2007-10-22
Arlington, TX
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What Russia is really*****ed about is the NATO committment to Poland. They will object to ANYTHING that makes it harder for them to conquer Poland again.
Those of you who think we should kowtow to a supposed "justified fear" by the Russians seem terribly uninformed. It's the Poles who have far more reason to fear their neighbor than Russia. The only time this ever happened to Russia was when they were invaded from the East by the Mongols out of Central Asia. Not bloody likely to be repeated.
Poland has been wiped off the map twice with Russia being a primary actor both times along with the German states. Three times if you count the short-lived Grand Dutchy of Warsaw in the early 19th century. But Poland was erased by a series of partitions led by Russia from 1772-1795. Russia ended up holding 80% of Poland as a result with the rest going to Austria and Prussia.
Most of you know about the Nazi-Soviet partition of Poland. The Katyn Forest Massacre was a Soviet attempt to decapitate the Polish Army by mass murder of its leaders. Poland ceased to exist for the balance of the war and the Red Army deliberately stopped it's offensive to allow the SS to crush non-communist opposition to ensure the only result could be a Russian puppet state. The Red Army sent in the tanks on multiple occasion to cow and sometimes kill Poles who didn't like being under the boot.
There is no comparison between the legitimacy of Polish claims for necessary defense vs the pathetic Russian claims. The urge to accomodate the Russians is driven solely by fear of their power, not ethics. It is the same impulse that underlies the policy of Appeasement.
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Namor
Posts: 94
Incept: 2007-10-12
Banned
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Quote: I am part of the military industrial complex and I work specifically on missle defense (integration).
I understand that if you negate an opposing force's offensive capability, they don't like. But, you cannot attack someone's right for self defense either. Banditfist- If I understand the Russian's position correctly they see the missile defense shield in Poland as offensive in Nature. Here's how their reasoning goes: In the traditional MAD scenario if the US were to initiate a First Strike against Russia they could wipe out about 90% Russia's capability to retaliate. This is not a concern for Russia because 10% of Russia's nuclear force will still be able to wipe out the vast majority of 350 major metropolitan areas + 250 major military installations that are located in the US. The missile defense shield on the other hand could theoretically enable the US to "mop up" most of the retaliatory missiles from Russia. This gives the west the implied ability initiate a first strike with only 'minimal' repercussions. It is this ability that they claim is 'destabilizing.' Russia is understandably nervous b/c they some the largest natural resource reserves in the world and are currently neck to neck with Saudi Arabia in crude oil production. |
Jduwaldt
Posts: 504
Incept: 2010-06-10
Orange County, CA
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Namor +1
Another problem for the Russians is that we might well start out w/ 50 missiles ... but how quickly could we rush-deploy, say, 500 that were built in secret?
Another old Russian (not just Soviet!) joke: "For Russia to feel secure, everyone else needs to feel a little nervous."
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It's not an issue of "cooperation" vs "go it alone": it's a question of involuntary vs voluntary relationships.
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Rjazz117
Posts: 17965
Incept: 2007-09-11
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We are not the country with which Russia should concern itself. Russia has vast resources and a sparse population. They have a neighbor with the exact opposite issue that should cause them much more worry.
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 “To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” Thomas Jefferson |
Chris11
Posts: 511
Incept: 2008-02-09
Germany
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Quote:The missile defense shield on the other hand could theoretically enable the US to "mop up" most of the retaliatory missiles from Russia. This gives the west the implied ability initiate a first strike with only 'minimal' repercussions.
It is this ability that they claim is 'destabilizing.' This might be the thinking of a military SAC guy. Can someone risk that even a handfull megaton fusion missiles make it to mayor US cities? Such a first strike would give the bombed nation every right to retaliate even month later with whatever way to get some megaton devices into your country. You will have to change your country into a North Korean style police state and even then there is no safety. Think a second about what Japan would have done at the end of WW2 if it had a few nukes after Hiroshima. |
Rjazz117
Posts: 17965
Incept: 2007-09-11
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"...eventually there is no safety..."
Eventually?
How do we actually have safety now?
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“To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” Thomas Jefferson
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Namor
Posts: 94
Incept: 2007-10-12
Banned
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Quote:Can someone risk that even a handfull megaton fusion missiles make it to mayor US cities? Chris, The doctrine in the US has been to absorb a first Strike since the 1980's. The reason we felt confident that strategy would be effective was b/c our subs could launch from anywhere in the world. First strike absorption was a good idea was good idea for many reasons, but primarily it was there to prevent accidental nuclear war. NORAD systems once accidentally mistook the moon for an armada of incoming missiles coming from the Soviet Union. |
Chris11
Posts: 511
Incept: 2008-02-09
Germany
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@Namor,
in Russia a similar event happend and almost started WW3. After the iron curtain came down the guy in Russia who had the balls to call BS on this alarm got a medal from the US as far as I know.
The capability to absorb a first strike and be left with some parts of your country still inhabitable does not make it a viable option to start a first strike and pray for the best. And that line of thinking will be even true for Iran.
There is simply not to gain anything reducing planet earth food producing area with nukes. That fallout can not be contained much over long periodes we have evidence from Czernobyl and Fukushima.
Most wars started with the prospect to increase the food producing area and not to diminish it. Now oil and gas came into the picture and are as important as food.
The ancient "kill em all" style does not work with populations counted by the millions and/or by any ethical standards.
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