Impending Market Dislocation? (PNSN)
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2012-05-03 12:36
by Karl Denninger
in Market Musings
Ignore this thread
Impending Market Dislocation? (PNSN)
 

If we get another MF Global folks the market will drop 5,000 DOW points and not bounce, as that will be that -- in the grains, in the commodities, in everything.

And Ann Barnhardt has pointed out that the firm that used to clear Think Or Swim futures (but since the Ameritrade acquisition no longer does), Penson, might be that domino.

I have no idea what their liquidity position actually looks like.  All I know is what I see in their stock price.  But this does not look good, and as Ann points out there is now history with MF Global and the CME refusing to make good when their oversight fails and customer funds "disappear."

In short don't expect that you're safe if Penson blows because there is no evidence you will be safe, and plenty of evidence that once again CME will step back and refuse to accept any responsibility for anything that happens to your money.

What's worse is that Penson's net capital has deteriorated markedly in recent months.  We don't have March's numbers but February was down nearly 30% over January.  Two months have passed since that time.....

Now it's certainly possible that Penson could go under but customer funds would be protected and fine.  That's ok if that happens -- businesses fail all the time.

But as I said at the time MF Global went down and customer funds were lost, if it happens again there will be no confidence remaining in the market, the break will be immediate and disastrous, and it is entirely possible that the proprietary trading of all brokerages will unwind and you will discover that there is no such thing as a safe brokerage in which to trade or invest as it is entirely possible that we will discover that all such banks and brokerages have enough proprietary exposure that they will all fail and you will lose all your money.

That simply must be the assumption you make until and unless it's proved otherwise at this point in time.

Therefore if you are not, right now, playing only with money you can afford to lose 100% of, even if you're right about what the market is going to do, then you're a fool to be in the market at all.

Period.

And yes, this means you if you have a 401k, an IRA, or a pension whether private or public.

Our government has not and will not protect you.  That has been proved over the last five years and all of the major political parties -- including Democrat, Republican and Libertarian have refuse to stand up and demand that the crooks go to prison.  In fact, they not only have refused to say that or do it they're actively borrowing from the people they should be policing!

In 2008 and 2009 we had the opportunity to fix this as I was pounding the table on before the dislocation really took off -- back to 2007.  I called for the reinstatement of Glass-Steagall, nightly liquidity proof and no more games.  Of course that wasn't "politically correct" and would have exposed that all these firms were bankrupt already, so it wasn't done.  Then the dislocation came and you get rammed.

Now it's about to come at us again, exactly as I expected it would, as we have fixed nothing in the intervening four years.

Don't say I didn't warn you if and when it happens because I most-certainly did.

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User Info Impending Market Dislocation? (PNSN) in forum [Market-Ticker]
Stcm
Posts: 1812
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Green
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Yikes!

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Short-Term Capital Mismanagement - "When genius was never there to begin with!"
Vitchilo
Posts: 4624
Incept: 2011-04-27

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And yet again, the insanity of the US government not enforcing laws on the financial industry will destroy the world's markets...

Screw globalism.

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"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H.L. Mencken
Preidt2
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Green
spokane/wash
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the bankers plan with omama the dictator to read the script

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Puppets Under Destruction
Aztrader
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Green
Scottsdale, AZ
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Buy SKF................
Genesis
Posts: 130775
Incept: 2007-06-26
Admin A True American Patriot!
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And you believe you'll get paid..... why?

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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Trades50
Posts: 4217
Incept: 2007-10-30
Silver
Land of Tax and Spend
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No prosecution or changes until the whole thing comes tumbling down. The same people that created the housing mess went on to bigger and profitable schemes.

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When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty. - Thomas Jefferson
Seven8n2
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Gold
SW Virginia, USA
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Scary, Karl,

I wondered about Vanguard, where I keep stocks, ETF's in "street name". Sad that you can't take delivery on stock certificates easily nowadays. I would love to hold financial assets outside the "system".
I found this on the web..not sure how accurate it is:

...Vanguard currently uses its own clearing Vanguard Brokerage Services as their clearing / asset custodial. Vanguard Brokerage Services, (member of FINRA & SIPC,) holds and clears all Vanguard client assets"


I just hope I am OK. I keep little cash in the account, just my dividend-paying stocks and some inverse ETF's.


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O mia Patria, sì bella e perduta!
O membranza sì cara e fatal!
-G. Verdi
Etz
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Silver
LA
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It's all business as usual as long as the missing funds find their way to JPM coffers.

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Legal chicanery and beneficent darkness are the banker's stoutest allies - F.Pecora.

Aztrader
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Thanks for the heads up. Have a small IRA with Penson. Transferring today.
Mpilar
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Nashville, TN
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Quote:
Thanks for the heads up. Have a small IRA with Penson. Transferring today.

And hope they don't fold in the next 30 days or so...could be asked ordered to put that money back in again...

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Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. H. L. Mencken

Mayorquimby
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Green
The Archaic Past
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I know Fidelity uses all sorts of clearing houses. When I submit trades I can see the clearing house on the trade ticket.

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They who wish to hurt you, work within the law.
- Morrissey

Gold is theft.
Grf
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Gen wrote..
there is no such thing as a safe brokerage in which to trade or invest as it is entirely possible that we will discover that all such banks and brokerages have enough proprietary exposure have been gambling with their customers' money and lost it all.


FTFY

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"Every time we on TF talk about God and gays, God frees a banker and gives him a bonus." --me
"Your farts are interstate commerce and if they want to stick a muffler up your ass they will do it." --Boughtthefarm
Maitski
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Atlanta
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I'm trying to think this one out. When the confidence in the banks and the brokerages is lost, what will people do? Do they try to get as much out as possible and hold it in cash in their mattress? If all of those investments get turned into cash, will that create massive inflation? Could something like this make people also lose confidence in the currency? Then what happens?
J0nx
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The trashcan of the nation
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You know what happens Mait. I've been in the process of liquidating my fiance's 401k but we have to wait for the forms to arrive next week and then the paperwork to go through before we get the check. Hope it holds together for another few weeks...

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The fraud and lies are only allowed to continue because the people allow it. Either through apathy or ignorance, they still allow it.
Marvinmartian
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Green
Pasadena, CA
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Which is safer?
1. Treasury Direct?
2. Treasury Only mutual funds?
3. Deposit in a Credit Union?
4. Bank of Sealy?
5. A bag of junk silver coins?
6. A trade with required tools, useful in any community?
7. A working farm, with abundant water, owned free and clear.

I think the latter 2 are safer, but if anyone else can weigh in, have at it.
Ktrosper
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ft collins co
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Gen wrote..
MF Global and the CME refusing to make good when their oversight fails and customer funds "disappear."


I think the actual term is "vaporize".

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The unexamined life is not worth living.-Socrates
The only stable state is the one in which all men are equal before the law.-Aristotle
Liberty exists now in the spaces government has not yet chosen to occupy.-Doc Zero
I anticipate that 10 Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders will blow me this evening.-K.D
Mpilar
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Quote:
If all of those investments get turned into cash, will that create massive inflation? Could something like this make people also lose confidence in the currency?

Doubtful...there's nowhere near enough physical dollars in existence for everybody to cash out and stuff it in their mattress. What happens when there's very little of something and everybody wants to get their hands on it?

Your credit cards could probably be worthless though...but physical paper? I seriously doubt it.

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Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. H. L. Mencken
Azusgm
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East Texas
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Maitski,

I would guess it would be massive deflation as financial voodoo instruments would be marked down massively with a panic-like loss of confidence.
Ckaminski
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Green
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How does a one liquidate a 1/4 million in 401k and IRA money??

Mannfm11
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Gold
DFW, Tx
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Obama and Romney need fund raisers and not license plate press operators. These fund raisers need your money to pay their bills. Really think they would dare gamble with their own money?

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The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.---John Kenneth Galbraith
Alphaomega
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Bakersfield
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CKamininski, off the top of my head, borrow 80% of the value of your assets with the longest payback timetable possible.

Gen probably has a better solution, though.
Smacktle
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Green
Texas
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Keep voting...BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

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The faults of the burglar are the qualities of the financier.
- George Bernard Shaw
Kwerk
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Makes you wonder what all the politicians do with their money? Or if they're just ignorant of everything too?
Financial
Posts: 81
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Green
Iowa
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Funds vaporizing and commodities inflating are what gets people's attention. This is where the kleptocracy has gone too far. They are now stealing money to recapitalize. This should finally force prosecutions for fraud. And promote the restructuring necessary to get the discriminating investors back into real markets rather than speculation.
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