KD wrote..

The problem is that the disease itself is caused by obesity. That is, eating too much and moving too little.

Major quibble here.

Diabetes and obesity are both effects of eating excessive carbohydrates, as are overeating and lethargy. People always want to blame the overweight person for their condition by saying they are gluttonous and lazy when in actuality the only thing they're guilty of is being ignorant or too trusting of government/media/conventional wisdom.

All of the symptoms I mentioned above are the effects of elevated blood sugar and insulin levels. Insulin's job as a hormone is two-fold; it controls blood sugar and possibly more importantly it regulates fat storage. Even if a person has lots of fat and is in a calorie deficit if insulin levels are high fat will not be used for energy. At the cellular level the body is starving even though the overweight person might be consuming a huge number of calories. Additionally a response of the body under starvation levels like that is to conserve energy (lethargy). Because of this to blame the overweight person is nonsense, they are literally starving when insulin levels are high and the direct result is to overeat or be a couch potato, they can't help it. This is why most dieters fail, the don't fix the real problem - elevated insulin levels cause by excess carbohydrate consumption.

Robert Lustig explains it better than I can.

Bigcowboy,

The 20% fat in a diet is ridiculus as is the recommedations from the governmental and nutritionists. I tracked my grams of carbs, protein, and fat when I started low carb. For a month, 60-65% of my calories were coming from fat which is 2-3X what is recommended by "experts". I have lost an average of 1.5 pounds a week. Limit the carbs and particulary the grains wheat is toxic as RamtheBulls said. Fat (in the diet)is good (mmm bacon, butter, whipping cream in the coffee all sorts of good stuff). Will have my blood tested once I get down to my goal weight.

Insulin Resistance is the cause of type 2. It is a very complicated disease with all types of factors to contract it. Many fat overweight people don't get it. There is now evidence (very recent study) that people will gain more weight suddenly, can't take it off and then will either become insulin resistant or not.

Drugs are not going to work well unless you change your lifestyle, and even then, it may not work. You may need to take insulin because of other factors.

Insulin resistance means your body tissues cannot take/use the insulin your pancreas secretes to control blood sugar. Your pancreas then works overTime to help. Some people have high levels of blood sugar and high levels of insulin at the same Time early on.

Then your pancreas starts to shut down, and will produce less and less insulin, and may at some point quit and at that point you then become a type 1, and insulin it is, no drugs will help. A very strict diet and fitness program will work in some people with type 1, but its a muda fkr and few can do it, and even less can stick with it.

I am not arguing that being overweight is not a cause, that and other factors will make you insulin resistant and then become a type 2 diabetic.

I just don't want people to think that if someone tells you they are a type 2 that means they were obese and did not exercise etc.

The worst type of fat is belly fat or "brown fat" it is also very very hard to get rid of. Swimming in "cold" water like lake Michigan temp in the summer is known to speed up the fat burning process of brown fat. If you can loose that you will have a leg up controlling blood sugar if you have type 2.

The diabetes association just listed a whole new set of guidelines about type 2. PATIENT RESPONSIBILITY is now bigger factor.

Drugs will not work by themselves, you have to watch your diet, and exercise. Those that choose not to are facing complications they are to ignorant or stupid to be concerned about. Their choice to ignore the facts puts huge pressure on the medical costs everywhere.

good vid Luna, thanks

Two months ago I stumbled upon a book called The Paleo Answer. It's what they call the Caveman Diet.

There was a lot of good information about why many of the foods that we have been eating since the dawn of agriculture create a lot of problems for our bodies. I had read bits and pieces about these things over the years but this book just pieced it altogether and cited a ton of references.

I was up to 225 lbs. and decided I wanted to see if such a simple thing could work. Today is 10 weeks and I'm down to 201 lbs. I walk about 40 minutes two or three times per week. I do limit the calories to around 1600/day.

It's really easy. Just fruits, vegetables, eggs, meats and some nuts. No dairy and no grains, no peanuts, no soy. Stay away from processed food. Don't eat out much because it seems like everyone puts so much salt in their food.

I had my kids watch the movie Super Size Me about 8 years ago. They have never wanted to go to a McDonalds since then. Before that they always wanted to go there for the happy meals. That movie really made an impression on them. It should be required viewing in all elementary schools.

Insulin is essential for driving nutrients into cells. Its essential for metabolism to work.

I've seen more than one body building program suggest protein shakes with dextrose after workout sessions. The dextrose (glucose) elevates insulin levels and drives the nutrients, both glucose and protein, into cells to rebuild muscles.

Many parts of the body require a certain level of glucose to function; that is why there are glucose storage centers in the liver and muscles. When glucose levels get too low, these storage release their stored glucose. If the glucose isn't available in the diet or from stores, the body will deconstruct protein to extract glucose.

Too much glucose is toxic to many organs. Therefore in the presence of high levels of glucose in the blood, we have evolved a mechanism to raise insulin levels beyond what is required for a normal metabolism.

This excess glucose is stored, triggered by high insulin levels. It can go either into fat cells, or in to the liver/muscle cells as glycogen.

Insulin resistance means that the liver/muscle glucose stores are full or less sensitive to insulin in the first place. The excess glucose goes into fat cells.

Exercise builds up skeletal muscles which are an essential part of the glucose storage system. Intense exercise causes cellular changes that increase the sensitivity of muscles to insulin. This requires discipline to carry out.

The key to avoiding obesity is twofold: exercise, and a diet of with a carbohydrate percentage appropriate to maintaining a certain level of glucose in the blood.

I guess the obese teens have too many bad calories, spend too much time in front of TV/game screens, and dont have the discipline for intense exercise.

Source for much of the above material:
1. Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes
2. Dr. Bernstein's diabetes solution : the complete guide to achieving normal blood sugars by Richard K. Bernstein
3. You are your own gym : the bible of bodyweight exercises by Mark Lauren with Joshua Clark.

I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes 2 1/2 years ago. Advice from doctor was take these 4 pills, keep a piece of candy in your pocket in case you feel woozy and stay away from bread and pasta. I was soooo*****ed when I left that doctors office. My wife worked in the hospital system were I was going so I called her to ask around about a doctor that was more interested in fighting vs covering with a magic pill. Got hooked up with a doctor from cambodia. Lost 60 pounds and was off all the medications in a little over a year. Did a 180 in lifesytle (fast food 2 or 3 times a day, no exercise to all home made meals and working out twice a day (down to once a day now). Eating right is important but I found working out did a lot to remove spikes and lows in my blood sugar which was important as my body was very sensitive to the changes as I lost the weight.

Lunch time!

I like to add here....

Doctors back denial of treatment for smokers and the obese

Survey finds 54% of doctors think the NHS should have the right to withhold non-emergency treatment

A majority of doctors support measures to deny treatment to smokers and the obese, according to a survey that has sparked a row over the NHS's growing use of "lifestyle rationing".

Some 54% of doctors who took part said the NHS should have the right to withhold non-emergency treatment from patients who do not lose weight or stop smoking. Some medics believe unhealthy behaviour can make procedures less likely to work, and that the service is not obliged to devote scarce resources to them.

However, senior doctors and patient groups have voiced alarm at what they call "blackmailing" of the sick, and denial of their human rights.

Doctors.net.uk, a professional networking site, found that 593 (54%) of the 1,096 doctors who took part in the self-selecting survey answered yes when asked: "Should the NHS be allowed to refuse non-emergency treatments to patients unless they lose weight or stop smoking?"

One doctor said that denying in-vitro fertilisation to childless women who smoked was justified because it was only half as successful for them. Another said the NHS was right to expect an obese patient or alcoholic to change their behaviour before they underwent liver transplant surgery.

Dr Tim Ringrose, Doctors.net.uk's chief executive, said the findings represented a significant shift in doctors' thinking brought on by the NHS in England's need to save £20bn by 2015. "This might appear to be only a slim majority of doctors in favour of limiting treatment to some patients who fail to look after themselves, but it represents a tectonic shift for a profession that has always sought to provide free healthcare from the cradle to the grave," he said.
(EDIT: More @ link)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/a....

For me it has been figuring out when I am actually 'hungry' vs 'full'. I actually used to think I was hungry when I was not 'full' so relearning that feeling is something I have been focusing on. When you cut carbs for a period of time that 'hunger' is much more of a dull feeling rather then the hunger pains from a carb crash.

I have been taking notice of how I feel after a bowl of cereal vs some fruit. I make a note of it to my son so he comments when I opt for cereal in the AM.

The best point you have Karl is the idea that we are too interested in the self esteem of the young. To their detriment of course. If your kid is a fat **** he needs to lose weight.

You guys who exercise want to try an interesting diet, look up "Intermittent Fasting", specifically the LeanGains variety. Basically eat all your calories inside of an 8 hour window and then no calories for 16 hours.

Seems to be working pretty good and i'm not really even hungry during the fasted period... though I do take small amounts of aminos around my workout, but not enough calories to break a fasted state.

Randy amplifies a good point. Taking the indulgent, PC way out of a problem with a kid can be toxic parenting. Children grow their way to adulthood, that includes the emotional/esteem component. One of the esteem issues has to be the freedom from feeling like a fraud. A person's self esteem needs to be rooted in something verifiable. If a child is taunted about his weight by other children and his parents keep feeding him whatever he wants, telling him he is just fine, and allowing him languish in front of an X-Box, how does that really help him? He can easily see what is in the mirror and knows that he can't keep up.

Parents: Grow up! Do the hard things and become better parents. Show your kids what it takes to behave like responsible, caring, adult parents.

/rant off

The only time when you can't change something about yourself is when you're dead.

"You guys who exercise want to try an interesting diet, look up "Intermittent Fasting", specifically the LeanGains variety"

Have read about it, though not tried it. Uses the same idea that "lots of small meals throughout the day" is baseless, at least among the people on bodybuilding.com these days, using what studies are available, calories are the driving force over a 24 hour period. So, if you get all your calories in two meals, three meals, or one, or 6 it really doesn't matter. Leangains would let you eat a 2000 calorie meal and still lose weight because you had nothing for breakfast or lunch.

Quote:

The problem is that the disease itself is caused by obesity. That is, eating too much and moving too little.

So close... But a miss IMO.

You're mixing up correlation and causation. Obesity doesn't cause diabetes, there is simply a high correlation between obesity and Type 2 diabetes. It's just like the correlation between cholesterol and heart disease. Some still believe that cholesterol is the cause when it's simply another symptom. Arterial inflammation is the cause of heart disease and "bad" cholesterol. The cause of the inflammation is, IMO, related to obesity and diabetes.

Diet. It's all the refined, processed crap, including largely sugar and HFCS. I'm willing to bet these kids are consuming 500g+ a day in sugar. 5g dissolved in the blood stream is on the borderline of pre-diabetic. WTF is your body supposed to do with 100 times that a day? It pumps out massive amounts of insulin. Insulin in large quantities that wreak all kinds of havoc on the body that eventually leads to poor cholesterol, obesity, heart disease, diabetes, etc.

And lastly, while activity has many benefits, it's not a necessary part of weight loss. When I did the full blown Atkin's intro I basically eliminated ALL processed and refined foods. Once I did that it wasn't hard to regulate my food intake. The days that I sat on the couch and watched TV all day I ate very little. The days I was active and doing things I ate more. If I worked out or took the dogs for a run I ate even more. Bottom line, once you detox your body of all the crap it will regulate itself nicely... Even if you do just sit on your ass.

Quote:

You're mixing up correlation and causation. Obesity doesn't cause diabetes, there is simply a high correlation between obesity and Type 2 diabetes.

Yep

Similar to saying that most everyone who has a car accident has eaten carrots.

Maitski, I think our caveman ancestors actually did consume wheat and other grains, but there's quite a difference between ancient wild wheat and modern cultivated wheat. Einkorn wheat, an Early Stone Age wheat, is supposed to be lower in gluten than modern cultivated wheats.

The problem with at least some modern grains is too much ****ing with the gene pool. Which just continues....

KD, I noticed you blotted the gal out next to you to protect the innocent. Just kidding. Peeling off 30 LBS would do wonders for me as well, the 30 I got after I turned 50.

I think there are some areas that bear investigation. For one, the cities of the US have been pouring a biologically altering substance in our water for around 50 years, give or take. I recall they started adding flouride to the water here around 1965. The stuff is an industrial toxin, affects the thyroid, skeletal structure, brain chemistry and who knows what else. The statements are alway, kids are fatter now than they were when? I think there is a possible link and there is now hundreds of billions going into drug to treat what may be caused by this chemical. The only support for this policy is the ADA, who makes a fortune fixing brittle teeth, quite likely brought about by excessive consumption of flouride.

The other problem is quite likely corn sugar. I have heard it doesn't metabolize like cane sugar. It damn sure doesn't taste like it. Add this to the fact that consumption of soft drinks has likely gone up significantly. I do work in the heat and I will buy a drink from time to time. They come in 52 ounce and 64 ounce cups. This was a foreign idea 40 years ago, the idea of drinking that much Coke at one time. I had a job at Jack in the Box while in high school. Their largest drink then was 20 OZ. That is a small in a lot of places today.

I guess McD's new pretzel burger is the new healthy choice. add some extra white flour and iodized salt into the "meal" that's the ticket.

Not McDonald's business to worry about what folks eat, or big gulp's business, or etc...

Man, first, I believe the gal that's blotted out is Gen's Daughter. She's a minor... Lots of people here were quick to ask if she was available before they found out her age... Gen's going to have to beat the boys away with sticks; although I suspect she can handle her own pretty well.

Anyway, back on topic. I suspect there are numerous possible causes but for me sugar really stands out. Corn sugar is the new name for HFCS... It's a close cousin to "sugar" being 55% fructose and 45% glucose. "Sugar" is 50/50. They're both bad IMO as the fiber has been removed and thus no buffer available. Also, the lack of fiber lets you eat more without feeling full.

Cobra wrote..

Corn sugar is the new name for HFCS... It's a close cousin to "sugar" being 55% fructose and 45% glucose. "Sugar" is 50/50.

Fructose in excess is used to induce insulin resistance in lab rats. It also does this in humans. Its an experimental fact.

I shudder when I think about the amounts of sugar being consumed. I think sugar alone will fix the Social Security problem because the herd of old folks will be thinned out so much.

I dont think the amounts of sugar being consumed will affect end-of-life medical expenses very much, just shift them to other treatments. Medicare will still be expensive for end-of-life illness just because of our attitudes.

MORE SUGAR SMACKS!!!...

Karl, your comment about it taking you 20 years to decide to do something and nine months to actually accomplish is really profound. That's it in a nutshell.

Nothing much happens until you finally make that decision to do something about your situation. Once you decide, things seem to happen without that much effort. But no one can make that decision for you.