| User Info
| New iFemineProduct Heat Problem in forum [Market-Ticker]
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Digitlman
Posts: 351
Incept: 2011-03-04
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I'm not iSurprised.
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Fraudster
Posts: 4181
Incept: 2011-05-10
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Speaking of which I need to change the battery on my Android phone..........which I am fully capable of doing.
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"Let China sleep, for when she wakes, she will shake the world." - Napoleon Bonaparte
"Circulation ceases first at the outer edges [Europe and Japan]. It will take a while yet for the decay to reach the heart [America]." - Foundation & Empire by Isaac Asimov
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Peterm99
Posts: 5177
Incept: 2009-03-21
SoCal
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Genesis wrote... . . you should never . . . charge them (lithium batteries) over 80%. The user manuals for the chargers I have make no mention of this. Do most battery chargers designed for lithium batteries stop charging at this level, or do they only shut off when the 100% level is reached?
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". . . the Constitution has died, the economy welters in irreversible decline, we have perpetual war, all power lies in the hands of the executive, the police are supreme, and a surveillance beyond Orwell’s imaginings falls into place." - Fred Reed
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Crzymorse
Posts: 1228
Incept: 2010-06-25
Maryland
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The record sales for the ipad include the ipad2 and the new ipad combined. Maybe Karl called this one right.
I'm going to hire a couple foxconn employees, ship them over here on H1B Visas, pay them 35k a year and let them change ipad batteries at $60 an ipad, if they could do 4 an hour I'm making out like a bandit.
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Genesis
Posts: 131442
Incept: 2007-06-26
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They go right to 100%, or indistinguishably close to it.
The best chargers will go to about 90% and then shift into trickle mode for the last 10%, DRAMATICALLY reducing output. Amusingly enough the Motorola Triumph that Virgin Mobile sells has a charging circuit in it that does exactly this -- it turns the light "green" (full) at 90% instead of 100% and cuts the charge current to effective float levels (~20ma or so.) Most run right up to the wall at full output (if on a car charger, as high as 1000ma; computer USB ports are limited to 500ma.)
Nobody will tolerate a battery that is intentionally derated 20% on both ends in the consumer space so it's not done as a matter of course.
Lithium cells have a typical 500-cycle life before they lose 10-15% or so of capacity from cycling. If you run from 20% to 80% you almost double that since you're only using about half the capacity. Cute, right? Well yes except now you need twice as big (or as many) batteries for the same watt-hours to be consumed, no? Indeed. Small size, light weight, battery capacity. You can't have all three.
So for consumer devices this is not done. The problem comes with the typical cellphone or other device that is used every day. It's cycled daily, usually from 30-50% to 100% and back down, so in a year it absorbs about 300 cycles of equivalent use. Then you add to that the time penalty of 5-7%. If you keep the device on float charge all the time you can easily double the time penalty (e.g. a laptop which is frequently stored with the charger connected lest you need to wait 2-3 hours for it to charge before you grab it to go somewhere, or for that matter a tablet!)
Most cellphone, tablet and laptop batteries will show 15% or so capacity loss one year after they're manufactured, assuming they go into service within a month or so of being produced. If the product sits on the shelf then you take the additional time penalty on capacity as well. In fact I've never seen a laptop battery that isn't down 10% on capacity at the one year mark no matter who made it, going all the way back to my first NEC and Sony laptops.
Lithium rechargeable cells sold commercially also have a protective circuit that prevents over-discharging as that can be dangerous -- it frequently results in internal shorts which then cause the case to burst and the battery catches fire when recharged. There are typically two levels for that protective circuit -- the first cuts off output, the second is PERMANENT and shuts the cell down. If you trip the second the battery is a brick and if it's a hybrid series-wired battery (like for a laptop) ANY cell in the pack that trips bricks the entire pack. The idea is that when the first level trips you'll charge the device and avoid self-discharge hitting the second limit. You can buy individual cells that are "bare" but it's a bad idea unless you know what you're doing (e.g. you're going to put them into a pack with the proper protective circuitry)
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Enapa
Posts: 1177
Incept: 2008-01-25
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Speaking on batteries. What is the best battery i could buy for my htc thunderbolt?
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Flaps10
Posts: 5354
Incept: 2008-10-17
seattle
Online
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116° isn't very high, but they probably isolated it for the purpose of taking readings. It probably get's much higher when sitting on your lap, blanket, pillow, etc.
Most built in chargers are moronic. It takes an intelligent charger to sense the ability of the battery to take a charge.
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"Better to die on your feet than live on your knees"
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Ramthebulls
Posts: 10867
Incept: 2007-09-24
Queens, NY
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My laptop switches to trickle charging past 95%. Why wouldn't this be standard industry practice?
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Umbrage is like love. No matter how much someone takes, there's always more for you to give.
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Gable
Posts: 426
Incept: 2009-07-04
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Quote:You gotta love intentionally-designed-in obsolescence..... it's great for the bottom line right up until consumers get*****ed off about it and revolt. The Apple lovers will still buy them. I learned back in the beginning of home PCs there were folks who wanted the most bang for the buck so they built there own systems for half the price and twice the performance of the Apple computers. If you mentioned those facts to a Apple lover they would almost turn blue, but they still kept buying Apple. I think it is like Gucci or Armani products. Karl's "iFemine" handle is spot on.
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In all of history, no government became more honest, less corrupt, or granted its citizens more rights as it grew in size. E.L. 2011
Ellie's Law-As an online discussion about the failures of the Obama Administration continues, the probability someone shouting "It's Bush's Fault" approaches 1
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Genesis
Posts: 131442
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Enapa: Don't know for that device. What you want to know is the mass of the battery. Guess what -- the reactants have mass and the more reactants the more mass.... The non-reactant parts are more-or-less fixed (e.g. the mass of the contacts, the wires, etc.)
I've seen some good deals on third-party stuff and then I've bought some junk. When it's one battery you need it's tough -- usually I want two or three for things like my cameras, so I'll risk one at a third of the manufacturer's price and if it tests well I'll buy two more. You have to watch the chinese junk from places like FleaBay -- sometimes they're actually OEM or even better, but occasionally they're garbage or even worse are missing the internal circuitry that the phone or other device uses for sense, and if so it won't charge in your phone AT ALL.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Genesis
Posts: 131442
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Ram: 95% is too high; a proper design goes into trickle mode at 80% (preferred) or 90% (maximum) but the problem is that people won't put up with what that does to charge time.
Heat is the enemy of batteries and overcharging is a BIG producer of heat.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Tesla
Posts: 15560
Incept: 2008-04-03
State of Disbelief
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This is a GREAT feature ! Crack a few eggs on it in the morning whilst you're surfing your favorite alternative new sites, and breakfast becomes part of the experience ! Just call it the iFryPan ! Yummy ! 
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"Even a dog knows the difference between being stumbled over and being kicked." -Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes
"Neither the wisest Constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt." -Samuel Adams
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Brewcrew2
Posts: 149
Incept: 2011-02-18
New Jersey
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Bah. Why worry about battery life 1-2 years out. By then, the "All-Newer iPad 4" will have hit the shelves and your "new iPad 3" will be obsolete. It's only another $600, just fork it over. It is totally worth it, everyone is going the iPad route. Nobody uses a real computer any longer, or uses an Apple competitor product.
/sarc
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Marvinmartian
Posts: 759
Incept: 2011-03-16
Pasadena, CA
Banned
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I have a late 2008 Macbook Pro. I bought this about a year after they came out so I got a deal. Its the last Macbook Pro with a battery that can be replaced. I bought AppleCare, and the battery, the power unit and the optical drive have been replaced under the Applecare warranty. I have about 6 months to go on the extended warranty. I dont regret purchasing Applecare.
I typically use the laptop at home with the battery removed; it has about 50% charge as I do this. The battery outside the laptop has a temperature of about 70F. I might make it last longer by storing in the refrigerator, but I dont do so.
For most of what I do with this laptop, I might as well buy an Intel hackintosh. It wouldn't be expensive and I would have the advantage of generic hardware. I do a fair amount of work in the "bash" shell would miss it if it were gone.
I run NetBSD, FreeBSD from time to time - I have a triple boot system and its pretty easy to do this. Its quite easy to get addicted to Apples extensions that make OSX easier to use than either NetBSD or FreeBSD. I'm a stranger to Ubuntu Linux, though. Why run Linux when a BSD based system is so compatible?
What ties my experience to the post - non Apple software systems are quite widely available and generally replicate the "Apple" experience.
If it were not for the advertising, desktop/laptop Apple would not be viewed as a unique product. I'm not a user of their Apple's tablets so I cant say whether they really provide extra functionality.
Reason: minor grammar tweaks
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Zerosum
Posts: 4573
Incept: 2007-11-11
Yes. It's a train.
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Ehh. Although my late-2009 MacBook Pro has never delivered the advertised battery duration, it's at 80% of design capacity now and I feel no need to replace the battery yet. It still runs longer, quieter and cooler than any one of five Windows laptops I ran through in the last decade.
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"The new American Dream is to get to be very rich and still be regarded as a victim." --Charles Simic
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Randy123
Posts: 5860
Incept: 2008-09-24
Earth
Online
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But the pixels are so beautiful.
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China is the Enemy. Wake Up.
New Normal. Same As The Old Awful.
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Enapa
Posts: 1177
Incept: 2008-01-25
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Thanks Karl! My battery seems decent after a year. Of course i have background data disabled and am not in a 4g area so thats not an issue. I always charge my phone at about 30-40% but didnt realize i shouldnt go to 100%. So far ive been lucky.
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Nomullet
Posts: 6932
Incept: 2007-11-11
SW
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One rule of thumb we used in chemistry is that chemical reactions double every 10 degrees celsius. I would guess that you could apply this to battery degradation as well.
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Don't confuse clear thinking with simplistic thinking. --Nomullet
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Genesis
Posts: 131442
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Yeah the problem is that your "gauge" is wrong. You need to profile to know what the remaining capacity is from "original design capacity." I have a profiler here that will run a specific discharge rate and log the watt-hours used with a user-specified cut-off voltage. With that, starting from a given floating voltage on a lithium cell, I can get very accurate numbers. My Lenovo does this internally (and interestingly-enough it's actually accurate against an external check) although most devices simply give you "good/no good" indications, or worse, you find out when your "full" battery lasts 1/2 as long as it should! I bought the thing originally a long time ago for entirely-unrelated reasons and found it very useful for things like dive lights where being back in a cave and KNOWING how long that battery will burn at a given amp draw suddenly becomes rather important. 
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Kamath
Posts: 1592
Incept: 2009-04-04
Sweden
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My SonyEricsson P910i cell phone - one of the first smartphones - is about to turn 7 years old. Still works, but could use a new battery. Will never buy anything from Apple, and will not buy a new phone in advance.
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"Yep - and that ****er didn't want to light either. I had to soak it in gasoline for a full day before that rat bastard thing would combust." - Karl Denninger ""We could not be more ill served if we had some South American tribal witch doctor shaking monkey bones at us. " - Infidel
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Zerosum
Posts: 4573
Incept: 2007-11-11
Yes. It's a train.
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Quote: Yeah the problem is that your "gauge" is wrong. Not a device that is critical for life processes. ;-) When it was new I got 5 hours and a bit (the way I use the machine). Over about six months that crept down to four hours, where it has remained ever since. I am happy; my last WinTel laptop wouldn't last two hours after a year.
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"The new American Dream is to get to be very rich and still be regarded as a victim." --Charles Simic
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Asimov
Posts: 104651
Incept: 2007-08-26
East Tennessee Eastern Time
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I have an old pocket pc (dell axim) that I've read on for 6-7 years. Need to replace the battery but it keeps limping along and as long as I charge it daily, I can read on it for 4-5 hours quite easily before it actually quits (but the "low battery" warning comes on after about 2.)
However, I used to be able to read on it for a 72 hours+ without even getting the low battery warning.
Let it sit for 3 days, and it won't even power up.
Still shows "full charge" when you unplug it though.
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It's justifiably immoral to deal morally with an immoral entity. If you trade based on what other people say, you will lose money. Especially what I say. I won't be held responsible. Festina lente.
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Genesis
Posts: 131442
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Yeah, the "perception" is that you start to get annoyed at about 20% loss of capacity. The problem is that there's a "knee point" not far from that 20% loss area for most of these batteries where you start losing capacity at an ever-accelerating rate. It's entirely possible to go from 80% capacity to 40% (or less) in six months' time.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Asimov
Posts: 104651
Incept: 2007-08-26
East Tennessee Eastern Time
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I'm probably at about 20% with that pocket pc. One thing I can say for it - I haven't noticed any further degradation in probably 2 years.
What actually killed the battery on it was leaving it unplugged and not using it for about 4-5 months. After that, it went downhill FAST, and then leveled out about where it is now.
Still wondering whether to replace it's battery or find one of the new readers that'll handle all the .lit books I have.
[Edit: Oh, one other thing - don't dare turn on networking with it. It will go from 100% to turning itself off in less than 5 minutes.]
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It's justifiably immoral to deal morally with an immoral entity. If you trade based on what other people say, you will lose money. Especially what I say. I won't be held responsible. Festina lente.
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