Another Prayer Session With Jesus
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2012-03-13 21:31
by Karl Denninger
in Editorial
Ignore this thread
Another Prayer Session With Jesus
 

Every time there's a massive market ramp someone starts a thread in The Bar on the forum asking if it's dumb to be trading (usually meaning they were entirely too bearish and just got it in the butt.)

The real problem when it comes to trading is usually money management, closely followed by being a stubborn ox.

Both are tough.  But money management is the worst failure and the easiest to succumb to, and the problem is that it's uniquely your issue as a trader.  It has to be, because unless someone else is trading for you you're the only one making the decision to buy or sell, you pick the instrument, you pick the level of risk (leverage, if any) and position size and you own the results.  Period.

Never mind that places like this, most-particularly The Ticker, have something like this somewhere prominent:

The content on this site is provided without any warranty, express or implied. All opinions expressed on this site are those of the author and may contain errors or omissions.

NO MATERIAL HERE CONSTITUTES "INVESTMENT ADVICE" NOR IS IT A RECOMMENDATION TO BUY OR SELL ANY FINANCIAL INSTRUMENT, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO STOCKS, OPTIONS, BONDS OR FUTURES.

The author may have a position in any company or security mentioned herein. Actions you undertake as a consequence of any analysis, opinion or advertisement on this site are your sole responsibility.

If you're a forum user on Tickerforum you have to explicitly agree to the nice bold portion (along with a whole lot more) before you can have access to post.

But whether you're reading commentary here or anywhere else on the net if that's not there and it ought to be, although by the same token it shouldn't need to be.

Let's look at the basic math here.  1576 to 666 on the S&P was a loss of about 60%.  If you cashed out at the top and sat, then bought the exact bottom you got a clean double, approximately.  And if you shorted 666 you lost half.

So how come people blow themselves up?  Well that's simple -- they compound the losses by doubling down or by using leverage.  You have to in order to blow up.  And note that while if you sat through the entire mess from 2007 until now, five years of time, you are still down some 12% or thereabouts from the top and you probably felt like sticking a gun in your mouth at least once.

On the other hand if you sold out in 2007 and sat you've had five years of sound sleep. 

What's that worth?  That's a tough question to answer on a forward basis isn't it? 

In hindsight all decisions are easy.

Before we go further, you should go back and read this from 2010:

As I have repeatedly said (but some refuse to read) The Market Ticker is not, and never has been, intended as a short-term trading vehicle.  It is not a newsletter, a tout sheet or anything of the sort.  Indeed, if you've been following The Market Ticker I warned in late 2007 and early 2008 that it was impossible at that time, and likely would be for years to come, to be an investor in the markets - and that someone with that view should consider being in CASH.

....

Unfortunately I can't at this time find anything that supports the idea that we're going to see a meaningful downward motion in that blue line in years to come.  But for us to have a real economic recovery - one that's durable, produces prosperity and thus stable, increasing markets, we have to.

There is no evidence that this is forthcoming - anywhere.

Now let's talk about trading a bit.

One of the most-damning things you can do as a trader is to let your emotions get the better of you.  If you trade frequently, ask yourself this: have you ever found yourself covering a short into a high tick, or selling a long into a low tick?

If you don't know what I'm talking about here, you need to learn and fast - while you still have money left.

But if you have, you have almost certainly let your emotional responses dictate your trading.  This costs you money - lots of it - and is a major part of, if not the primary reason, that most active traders (9 out of 10 if you read the statistics) lose money.

Now let's talk about risk management.

In order to manage risk you must have a trading plan.  That plan must set forth exactly what you're going to trade, why you're going to trade it (that is, what you must see to enter a trade), how much you are willing to risk on each trade, and your exit and thus target profit for the trade.

All of these should be written down.

You decide what the amount of risk is, but be aware of this -- the more you risk, the higher the probability that poor execution or bad luck will zero you.  You should be doing this only with capital you can afford to lose -- never, ever with funds you need for any other purpose, including retirement.

Now wait a second, you might protest!  How do you save for retirement if not through this?  Here's the ugly: Today, I have no perspective on that other than something risk-free such as cash, for the simple reason that all of the vehicles that usually would be considered "safe" have been rendered NOT safe or yield so little that their reduction in safety is not worth the yield available.

Yeah, that sucks, but that's how I see it.  Go talk to Uncles Ben and Barack about that and read the top paragraph of that quote up there a bit from close to two years ago.  That's still how I see it.

If you make profits in your trading then you can take them out and put those into your retirement or simply spend them.  But once they come out, they don't go back in. 

Period.

So we've settled on only putting at risk how much you can afford to lose, and we've set a written plan.  I have my own view of it that we can call "R" (for Risk -- and Return.)

My personal approach is to RISK 1 "R" for a potential target of at least 3 Rs.  If I lose 3Rs in a day or if I ever break my rules I'm done for the day no matter what else has happened, even if the rule-break makes money.

So let's say that I have $10,000 that I'm playing with.  I am willing to risk 1/100th of that on a trade, or $100.  I will not take the trade unless my target is at least +$300.  At that point I pull the stop up to +$200.  If at any time the trade goes $400 into the good the stop is set at $300 as that is a full target hit and you never, ever give that back.  Ever.  Finally, if the trade keeps going my way at each "X" increment (let's say 3R away from the original $300) I will pull the stop to 1/2 of the additional profit. At 10R if I am lucky enough to get it I trail the stop GTC at 10R and let the market take me out while going fishing for the rest of the day.  I will only trade a maximum of five times in one day to control commission expenses and try to keep my emotions from running away with me.  And finally, at the end of each day I will sit down and figure out why every losing trade was a loser -- that is, what I did wrong (if anything.)

Please note: This is not how I actually trade, but it's an example that illustrates how to structure a trading plan.  You must come up with your own criteria to suit you -- this is probably wrong for your particular circumstance, amount of money at risk, what you pay in commissions and other factors and neither I or anyone else can structure a plan for you -- this is something you must sit down and noodle on yourself.

So what happens with a plan like this?  First, I can be right just half the time and make damn good money.  I can be wrong sequentially a lot and still be in the game, as I need to be wrong 100 times sequentially to lose my stake.  If I am ever wrong by $300 in a day I'm done no matter what -- the computer gets turned off and that's the end for today and if I ever break the rules I'm also done for the day.

Notice that this looks like pretty small ball.  Is it?

Let's assume that on average we're no better than a coin toss.  The average day will thus go something like this:

1: Wrong, stopped out, -$100.
2: Right.  Goes to target and one "R" beyond, then pulls back. +$300 (+200)
3. Wrong.  (+100)
4. Right.  Goes to target and beyond by three "R"s.  Stop is moved to +5R and is hit (+600)
5. Wrong. (+500)

I push the chair back and am +0.5% on my account for the day.

Small ball, right?  Worthless?

Oh really?  There's ~200 trading days in a year.  If this is your average day you double your account in one year.  Note that I was right forty percent of the time and I only really got one "decent" hit and no home runs!  But I never broke the rules and because I controlled risk and only took trades that had a reward that was expected to be three times the amount I risked, if I'm a mediocre picker of entries I make a lot of money.

Note that I don't care which way the market is going and that I didn't say "short" or "long."

I don't care about the macro background, other than to keep in the back of my mind that everything may go to hell and I might want some extra canned food at the house, a few cases of shotgun shells and a Berkey water filter.  The only reason I care about expected news is that I might not want to play at all if I know of something coming that might cause a huge move and gap over my stop.

In terms of trading the macro outlook in The Ticker and everywhere else in the media and on the Internet -- whether CNBC or wherever -- is utterly immaterial.  In fact when you're doing it you should shut all that crap off and do whatever allows you to focus -- whether it be listen to your favorite music or simply stare at the screen.

That's trading folks, and if you're not doing it that way you are, in my view, doing it wrong.

Speculating is a different matter entirely.  If you want to buy penny stocks or take fliers on firms like Sprint (which trades like an unlimited-time option) that's fine, but that's not really trading either -- it's more akin to gambling.  There's nothing wrong with gambling mind you, just don't call it what it isn't and don't do it with the electric bill money.

Likewise "short and go sit" or "long and go sit" isn't trading.  I'd call it "investing" if such a thing still existed, but it doesn't.  You're doing nothing to control risk exposure when you do something like that.  There you're placing a bet on the intermediate-term macro-level outlook and if you're wrong you're going to get hurt.  If you go down this road the general rule you'll read in books is that you never take more than an 8% loss, simply because it takes too much of a move to get it back.  If you lose half, for example, you need a double to get back to even!

This is not the first time I've written on this sort of topic in the past; the above quote is another, and then there's this from 2009:

Look, we all take losses as traders.  I don't care how right you are today, some day you will be wrong.  Badly wrong.

Leverage + too big of a bet + failure to segregate speculative accounts from core capital = you will eventually die.

Every time.

Not some times.

Every time.

Jesse Livermore blew himself up more than once, failing to protect fortunes he made trading that reached as high as $100 million during the 1929 crash, and ultimately committed suicide.

Money management folks. 

And again just a few months before it all went to crap in 2008:

If you're not prepared to trade a bear market, get out and sit on your hands. Even if you have big losses here and now, because trading "in anger" will only cost you more, and ultimately, if you keep attempting to do that, you will lose your entire account balance.

Professional traders who remain in the game for any length of time know that the tape is never wrong, and your account is marked to the market every night. Your beliefs are not material to the tape in the short term, but in the end, fundamentals always win out.

The wisest man knows when not to play; greed is fine, but unbridled greed always leads to disaster.

Just ask the house flippers in California.

Or, the original...

Tell the kids to go watch cartoons.

THIS POSTING IS NOT SUITABLE FOR ANYONE WHO HAS TENDER EYES - OR ANYONE NOT OLD ENOUGH TO BE TRADING.

That last one was from 08-04-2007 and what prompted me to write it was a guy who got a margin call that "cured itself" when the market reversed before he could meet it.

As long as The Ticker is here and people fail to plan and thus plan to fail, and unfortunately wind up with the expected result, I will occasionally write Tickers just like this one.

And the many before it on the same subject.

Trading is an adult game and comes with risk.  You can financially wipe yourself out and it's not even difficult to do so.  As I have noted repeatedly and as others have as well, some 90% of those who try to trade lose money, and a not-immaterial percentage of those folks lose their shirts -- sometimes literally.  If you've never blown up an account you're either new at this game, you're Superman and have never succumbed to emotion and thus never gotten*****ed or undisciplined and broken your rules or you're perfect. 

Enjoy the casino if you choose to play in it, rigged outcomes and all (JP Morgan's announcement this afternoon anyone?) but do know going in that the worst enemy you have in the market is in fact yourself.

Discussion below (registration required to post)
 

Main Navigation
Full-Text Search & Archives
Archive Access
Get Adobe Flash player





Blogtalk 3:30 CT Mondays
Items To Look At


Discuss The Capital Markets along with daily technical analysis with our Gold Donor program.

Where We Are, Where We're Heading (2013) - The annual 2013 Ticker

Links and Blogroll
Our policy on reciprocal links: Send us an email with your information and why you think your blog or news site would make a good addition - in most cases reciprocal link requests will be granted.
Legal Disclaimer

The content on this site is provided without any warranty, express or implied. All opinions expressed on this site are those of the author and may contain errors or omissions.

NO MATERIAL HERE CONSTITUTES "INVESTMENT ADVICE" NOR IS IT A RECOMMENDATION TO BUY OR SELL ANY FINANCIAL INSTRUMENT, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO STOCKS, OPTIONS, BONDS OR FUTURES.

The author may have a position in any company or security mentioned herein. Actions you undertake as a consequence of any analysis, opinion or advertisement on this site are your sole responsibility.

Looking for "The Best of Market Ticker"? Check out
Ticker Classics.

Visit the forum to discuss this and other investing-related topics; see the FAQ on the forum for information about Gold Donor status including access to our technical analysis video server.

Market charts, when present, used with permission of TD Ameritrade/ThinkOrSwim Inc. Neither TD Ameritrade or ThinkOrSwim have reviewed, approved or disapproved any content herein.

The Market Ticker content may be reproduced or excerpted online for non-commercial purposes provided full attribution is given and the original article source is linked to. Please contact Karl Denninger for reprint permission in other media or for commercial use.

Submissions may be sent "over the transom" to The Editor at any time. To be considered for publication your submission must include full and correct contact information and be related to an economic or political matter of the day. All submissions become the property of The Market Ticker.

Leads on stories of current economic and political interest are always welcome. Our fax tip line is 850-897-9364; please include contact information with your transmission.

 
Comments.......
User: Not logged on
Login Register Top Blog Top Blog Topics FAQ
Showing Page 1 of 3  First123Last
User Info Another Prayer Session With Jesus in forum [Market-Ticker]
Agau
Posts: 4940
Incept: 2010-06-04

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Yep - have been sleeping real good - got out in 2007 and played some of the dead cat bounces on the way down. Yes, I did miss the run up in equities after the crash but had a nice position in PM that was rolled over into RE in the past few.
Inkt2002
Posts: 99
Incept: 2009-07-15

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
There is no money management system able to overcome an inability to be able to derive and quantify an edge.
Asimov
Posts: 104044
Incept: 2007-08-26
Gold
East Tennessee Eastern Time
Online
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Inkt: Use the method he states, pick stocks at random - use darts and the WSJ if you want - then flip a coin. Heads you buy, tails you sell.

If you stick to the system he described and it's rules, you will make money.

----------
It's justifiably immoral to deal morally with an immoral entity.
If you trade based on what other people say, you will lose money. Especially what I say. I won't be held responsible. Festina lente.

Antone
Posts: 7684
Incept: 2008-02-03
Green
Seditionia, USSA
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
There is no such thing as a guaranteed money-making system. You simply cannot use words like "will", Asimov.

----------
As if anything has changed:

Wir sind gefickt.
Pooslinger
Posts: 4393
Incept: 2007-11-06
Gold
Illinois
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Great reminder!!
Asimov
Posts: 104044
Incept: 2007-08-26
Gold
East Tennessee Eastern Time
Online
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Antone: Fair enough. But the failing with good money management is not the choices of stocks or even the direction, but failure of the person behind the screen.

I know I still make stupid mistakes every single day. I don't learn from nearly enough of them.

----------
It's justifiably immoral to deal morally with an immoral entity.
If you trade based on what other people say, you will lose money. Especially what I say. I won't be held responsible. Festina lente.
Kochevnik
Posts: 547
Incept: 2007-07-30
Green
Dallas TX
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
It was a helluva ride trading - one time I lost 500k by going for a 45 minute walk - gold that one was. I lost an opportunity for millions on oil when I got cute and 'temporarily' switched sides after having been long oil from $70 from 2006. Then I decided I was a stock trader. I sucked ass.

In the end tho, after adding it all up, I would have lost most of the money in other ways, so mostly what I had was some wild lottery rides. If I truly listened to Karl in 2007 when he said most people should just sit on the sidelines, I would been better off.

Now, after the MF Global farce and HFT, I see ZERO reason for trading - if you win, they just confiscate your trading account and steal all the money in it. Only an complete idiot drop their shorts like that after all that has happened in the last 5 years. Hard to believe it was almost that long when I joined here.

It took me 3 years of hard work to dig my ass back up from minus and now every dime I have is in true cash - non-moneymarket accounts at various CU's that I can empty in an hour.

I think trading, like everything else, was a bubble and that bubble has popped for good and will never return in my lifetime. Volume on the NYSE is at record lows and 80+ percent of what remains is HFT. I will never ever trade again in my lifetime - I wont even open an all cash IRA anymore because eventually they will be coming to steal that too.

They killed all us golden gooses and we aint commin back to life.


----------
There are decades where nothing happens - and there are weeks where decades happen.

-- Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

Little_eddie
Posts: 592
Incept: 2009-04-30
Green
Delaware
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Well, let me take this time to thank you Karl,

The best thing I've done lately is when I stopped trading, I'm so much happier now.

Now, I take care of family, have a good time everyday, play more golf and I'm still in the top 4% of the richest people in the world*.

*do the math, it's not that hard.

Edit: to make it easier,
Gross world product (GWP) is the total gross national product of all the countries in the world. This also equals the total gross domestic product. See measures of national income and output for more details. The per capita GWP in 2008 was approximately $10,500 US dollars (USD).[2]

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_world....
The world population in 2008 was 6.7 billion

Or you can go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_econo.... and do the math

----------
Quote:
If the math says one thing and the law says something different, it will be the law that ends up changing


Charles Calomiris
From an article in Foreign Affairs entitled “The End Of The Euro”

Asimov
Posts: 104044
Incept: 2007-08-26
Gold
East Tennessee Eastern Time
Online
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Top 5% of the richest people in the world is anybody who makes over $33,700/year.

If you make over $47,500, you're in the top 1%.

----------
It's justifiably immoral to deal morally with an immoral entity.
If you trade based on what other people say, you will lose money. Especially what I say. I won't be held responsible. Festina lente.
Tsherry
Posts: 193
Incept: 2008-12-09

Spokane WA
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
That might've been the most adult thing I've read in quite awhile. Nicely done.
Little_eddie
Posts: 592
Incept: 2009-04-30
Green
Delaware
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
You made it too easy Asimov,

At least I know you don't sell insurance. edit: financial advisor

----------
Quote:
If the math says one thing and the law says something different, it will be the law that ends up changing


Charles Calomiris
From an article in Foreign Affairs entitled “The End Of The Euro”

Kochevnik
Posts: 547
Incept: 2007-07-30
Green
Dallas TX
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
I'll second that - one of the best things I ever did too, realized I sucked at trading and quit for good. The amount of stress in my life is a fraction of what it was, and 50 pounds of weight is gone as well.

They ought to have a traders anon. 12 steps, step one, there is a higher power and it's name is JP Morgan and it wants to drink your ****ing blood and impoverish your children.

No thanks. I quit.

LOL

----------
There are decades where nothing happens - and there are weeks where decades happen.

-- Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

Asimov
Posts: 104044
Incept: 2007-08-26
Gold
East Tennessee Eastern Time
Online
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Heh, no, I don't. Data came from here: http://www.globalrichlist.com/how.html

----------
It's justifiably immoral to deal morally with an immoral entity.
If you trade based on what other people say, you will lose money. Especially what I say. I won't be held responsible. Festina lente.
Little_eddie
Posts: 592
Incept: 2009-04-30
Green
Delaware
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
On Saturdays I play Golf with a bunch of insurance/FA guys.

When ever they start trying to sell me that stuff I use that line and they don't understand it, and change the subject.

It's one of though "If your job depends on you not knowing something" things

----------
Quote:
If the math says one thing and the law says something different, it will be the law that ends up changing


Charles Calomiris
From an article in Foreign Affairs entitled “The End Of The Euro”
Ironman09
Posts: 2793
Incept: 2007-08-08
Green
La La Land
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
great reminder. Thanks Karl. I need to pull some out and keep the risk to minimum.

----------
- Short the Phone Book roll-over to 1330 ( May 6th,2013)
Tritumi
Posts: 166
Incept: 2008-11-29

tokyo
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
beautiful and balanced. i have also been sleeping well, at least when the earth isn't shaking.

but one tiny concern, cash seems to be entering something other than the risk-free zone.
Howie
Posts: 4848
Incept: 2007-11-02
Gold A True American Patriot!
Wilmington, DE
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Too late for me. Good advice though.

----------
"Banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a moneyed aristocracy that has set the government at defiance. The issuing power (of money) should be taken away from the banks and restored to the people to whom it properly belongs." - Thomas Jefferson
Inkt2002
Posts: 99
Incept: 2009-07-15

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Asimov,
I guess you then can synthetically create a positive expectation at the roulette table as well with this money management system.
ugh.
Asimov
Posts: 104044
Incept: 2007-08-26
Gold
East Tennessee Eastern Time
Online
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Inkt: Of course not. A good trader is a car salesman, not a gambler.

----------
It's justifiably immoral to deal morally with an immoral entity.
If you trade based on what other people say, you will lose money. Especially what I say. I won't be held responsible. Festina lente.
Natew
Posts: 66
Incept: 2009-12-16

IN
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Lots of great advice, like always!

Just be wary of your trusting the Berkey Water system, they made lots of bunk filters last year and the year before that fall apart after a few weeks to a few months use. And then they charge you as much to replace their admittedly faulty product as buying a brand new competitors filter... Poor product and poor customer service.

Sorry, I know its off topic, but it was mentioned...
Grumpygirl
Posts: 2855
Incept: 2008-09-18
Gold A True American Patriot!
Oregon
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
I don't have skills or the stomach lining to be in this market. Enough said.
Inkt2002
Posts: 99
Incept: 2009-07-15

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Asimov,
If you don't have an edge, you are gambling. Essentially the vig or commision will erode your bankroll. No money management system can overcome that in the long term. All a money management system can do is alter the return structure or distribution skewness of your account value for those that do not have an edge(i.e. those randomly picking stock). For those that do have an edge, an optimal money management system is designed to optimize bankroll growth (see Kelly Criterion). The above listed "system" appears designed to near maximize liklihood of profit (essentially shifting the median forward and away from the mean).
A good trader can quantify edges. Money Management is secondary and there to optimize growth from that edge. Money Management is not designed to create an edge because it can't.
Medicdan
Posts: 8024
Incept: 2010-02-11
Green
Scottsdale, AZ
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
That's my system in a nutshell. I have taught this to others as well.

I have to disagree with ASI, you can not just coin flip stocks. Maybe you can for a little while, but that will blow up on you. I may have one losers out of 5 trades. Last year I ran a 77% batting average. That is not from coin flipping. If you learn your patterns you will pick good plays.

95% of the problem people have is with money management.

Inkt2002 wrote..
There is no money management system able to overcome an inability to be able to derive and quantify an edge.


False. 100%. Money management is the edge. Learn to pick good trades with good stops and you will amaze yourself.

I did put together a chart to help someone with a management plan. You can see it here.
http://tickerforum.org/akcs-www?post=202....

You guys that are not gold stars, get one even if its for a month and paper trade along with us in the forum. Between Karl's ticks and the great stuff that gets posted, you will get one hell of an education for practically nothing.

Most mornings I post my watch list and try to also post my entry and stops if I have time. Many others do as well.

----------
Arizona & desert gardening
http://azediblegarden.com/
Asimov
Posts: 104044
Incept: 2007-08-26
Gold
East Tennessee Eastern Time
Online
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Since we both agree the system described by karl is meant to maximize profit, take up my challenge and papertrade with my random method, following the rules to the letter.

If you have not tried it yet, you don't know what the results are going to be. I have tried it. I've also challenged others to try similar money management systems (though I never described them in detail.)

The fact is that a purely random pick is going to go up 1/2 the time and down 1/2 the time. Your odds of getting the direction correct are 50%. If you follow the rules, you will make money. You won't make as much as you can with the addition of that "edge" you seem so focused on, but your balance will increase, not decrease.

However, one point I'm not accurate on: A purely random stock pick with the number of stocks there are is probably a bad idea. A random pick from among a selection of stocks that have a tendency to make larger moves would greatly increase the profitability. A good paper trade test of it would be by randomly selecting from all the 3x Leveraged ETFs (or 3x & 2x.)

Until you've honestly tried it and failed, don't tell me it won't work.

----------
It's justifiably immoral to deal morally with an immoral entity.
If you trade based on what other people say, you will lose money. Especially what I say. I won't be held responsible. Festina lente.
Login Register Top Blog Top Blog Topics FAQ
Showing Page 1 of 3  First123Last