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| Now We're Fooked (Europe) in forum [Market-Ticker]
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Visualcsharp
Posts: 343
Incept: 2009-12-19
Round Rock, TX
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Simplicity like this escapes the stupid, Karl. My mother runs the most successful real estate office in her small town and if I asked if she cared to know how GDP was calculated, I'd get a blank stare and she'd say "GDP? What's that?" Even this stuff is way beyond most folks.
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Falcor
Posts: 697
Incept: 2007-12-03
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G = size of tumor Health of Patient = C + I + G + (x - i) If G is increasing, that's good, right?  |
J0nx
Posts: 3068
Incept: 2008-08-12
The trashcan of the nation
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But but but what about China helping them out?
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The fraud and lies are only allowed to continue because the people allow it. Either through apathy or ignorance, they still allow it.
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Perramas
Posts: 54
Incept: 2011-01-24
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The former Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad said it best "Europe... has lost a lot of money and therefore you must be poor now relative to the past"
"And in Asia we live within our means. So when we are poor, we live as poor people. I think that is a lesson that Europe can learn from Asia."
"You refuse to acknowledge you have lost money and therefore you are poor," he says.
"I think you should go back to doing what I call real business - producing goods, providing services, trading - not just moving figures in bank books, which is what you are doing."
"Currency is not a commodity", he says.
"There must be something solid to trade, then you can legitimately make money."
"To recover your wealth you have to work over many years to rebuild your capacities, to produce goods and services to sell to the world, to compete with the eastern countries," he says.
European workers are overpaid and unproductive, Dr Mahathir believes.
"I think you have paid your workers far too much money for much less work," he says.
"So you cannot expect to live at this level of wealth when you are not producing anything that is marketable."
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Assassination, Attack, Domestic security, Drill, Exercise, Cops, Law enforcement, Authorities, Disater assistance, Disaster management, DNDO, National prepardness, Mitigation, Prevention, Response, Recovery, Dirty bomb, Swat, Threat
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Hognutz
Posts: 45
Incept: 2010-09-04
S.C.
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"The fat lady has sung?"
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Ironpete
Posts: 419
Incept: 2007-10-28
Take the Red Pill
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I keep telling people who are naive about economic data that not all growth is good.
I tell them cancer is a growth also, is that good?
As Falcor said, "G" would safely be stated as the cancer.
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Stuart
Posts: 28
Incept: 2011-12-15
Phoenix
Banned
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Debt based money system is behind all of this. When we finally realize that it is the way are money comes into existence that leads us down to this inevitable path.
There is not enough money in the system to pay the current debt. More debt has to be created to create more money which increases the debt further. It is always a trap.
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Myopia
Posts: 83
Incept: 2010-09-16
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"The latter is dishonest because deficit spending inherently causes the monetary supply (money and credit) to increase. And since the value of a unit of currency (in terms of goods and services) is determined by the simple relationship of the number of units of production divided by the units of currency and credit in the economy all such borrowing inherently causes the value of every unit of credit and currency in the economy to fall."
I'm unclear on this - if you increase the money supply (via printing, or via debt) does this matter if the units of production increase, i.e. that extra "money" is put to use that gives a return equal or above to its productive value?
I know we've had thirty plus years of not doing this I just want to get clear in my mind this relationship.
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Asimov
Posts: 104068
Incept: 2007-08-26
East Tennessee Eastern Time
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It's justifiably immoral to deal morally with an immoral entity.
If you trade based on what other people say, you will lose money. Especially what I say. I won't be held responsible. Festina lente.
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Wearedoomed
Posts: 3586
Incept: 2009-01-14
slightly red state
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Stuart wrote..Debt based money system is behind all of this. Ah, Stuart, you may wish to edit your post before you get  for expressing an opinion that is typically espoused by proponents of currency backed by e.g. gold. Fiat currency is not "behind all of this." Bankruptcy is how a debt-based system clears out sociopathic creditors and debtors. The gummints and the banksters refuse to let the necessary bankruptcies happen to them; all the gold-backed currency in the world cannot cure the sociopathy of the people in control of the monetary system.
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And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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Ghopper
Posts: 2317
Incept: 2011-06-11
Staten Island, NY
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Quote:"But but but what about China helping them out?" http://www.cnbc.com/id/46394254Quote:"U.S. stock index futures pointed to a sharply higher open for Wall Street, as China renewed its commitment to investing in euro zone debt and European shares rallied on the back of economic data that was not as bad as expected." Seriously. Can you believe they are back to this BS story AGAIN??? China will save the day...while it is pouring hundreds of billions into its own banks to keep them from imploding. |
Disparage
Posts: 48
Incept: 2009-12-14
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Wearedoomed...
Why would Stuart get banned for making this comment:
"Debt based money system is behind all of this. When we finally realize that it is the way are money comes into existence that leads us down to this inevitable path.
There is not enough money in the system to pay the current debt. More debt has to be created to create more money which increases the debt further. It is always a trap."
The Federal Reserve Notes, which isn't even legal tender under the Constitution, is backed by nothing more than Debt?
But not only that we currently are in an economy which depends on debt to exist. Example: "credit is money. debt is capital." LOL, banks claim the latter.
So I don't understand the statement of banning Wearedoomed...
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Ktrosper
Posts: 1500
Incept: 2010-04-06
ft collins co
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Myopia wrote..I'm unclear on this - if you increase the money supply (via printing, or via debt) does this matter if the units of production increase... Here's what I think... Pretty simplistic but hopefully I'm close: If the money supply stayed the same and production increased, someone(s) would gain in wealth.. Excess production could be banked or invested. If the money supply inflates at the same rate that true productivity increases, those prod increases would be offset. Fixed income folks get hosed? If the money supply inflates faster than true productivity, everyone gets poorer. Everyone gets hosed as currency values are debased...
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The unexamined life is not worth living.-Socrates
The only stable state is the one in which all men are equal before the law.-Aristotle
Liberty exists now in the spaces government has not yet chosen to occupy.-Doc Zero
I anticipate that 10 Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders will blow me this evening.-K.D
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Bagbalm
Posts: 4264
Incept: 2009-03-19
Just North of Detroit
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Stuart did not say anything about gold. Perhaps you remember previous statements of his but I don't have the time to research that. But what he said today said nothing about what should replace debt issued money. Just it fails.
I've been giving it a great deal of thought recently what would work.
Perhaps you think I'm full of myself to think I could come up with something when all the highly educated folks have failed. When you look at Bernanke and Geithner it seems the more they are educated the less they know.
It seems any system fails when there is unchecked greed and dishonesty.
People look at the world and see that we could produce enough physical goods to satisfy everyone who is willing to make themselves useful. Thus the simplistic effort of Communism to make an equitable distribution. All they proved is that the masses can be just as greedy and short sighted as whatever form of oligarchy that happens to be over them.
I'm not ready to lay out publicly any solution. I think that the scriptures were correct when they said the poor are with us always. Some people just can not be helped on any terms. But we can hope for a system that doesn't peak and crash like unthinking animal populations. Depressions are horrible wasteful means of purging the system. I'm sure the solutions are not in the details of currency creation and financial transactions, but in the character of men, the limits of governance, and how children are raised.
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Genesis
Posts: 130807
Incept: 2007-06-26
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No it doesn't necessarily fail.
Some PEOPLE fail, but the system does not have to fail.
Do not run the polemics in my Ticker threads. The warnings are well-founded -- if I see any more of them the people doing so are gone. There's an entire FORUM for this here and those who want to do this had better move that discussion toot suite.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Tickergroupie
Posts: 431
Incept: 2010-03-24
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Visual,
I'd say your mother simply lacks the knowledge. I'd bet if you explain it to her, she will understand it and quickly. Besides, most people find this sort of thing mind-numbingly boring. God only knows why I became interested.
I was once just like your mother. However, after a few years of enlightenment via the Ticker, I now know what GDP is (and a lot of other stuff I previously didn't - Thanks Karl :) But I can't sell real estate. ;-)
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Themortgagedude
Posts: 8853
Incept: 2007-12-17
saint louis
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Maybe it's time for somewhat of a jubilee. All countries agree that deficit spending and issuance of debt from this point on will not happen. UN Resolution to that affect. Then we just print our way out of the mess. Just fill the coffers up with digital money. Devalue everyone holding currency. People with hard assets are winners. Jubilee - problem solved. We picked our winners and picked our losers. Live with it. Or you could just default all debt. What the hell - what we're doing isn't working. Then instead of devalued currency you get none if it was in a bank.
Or you could just raise taxes and reduce services world wide. Balance the budgets and pay everything off. Again you picked your winners. Those holding hard assets win this way.
Whatever we do it's time to match expenditures with receipts. I always get this picture of Bernanke and Draghi juggling balls and trying to keep them all in the air. Greece keeps trying to throw a chainsaw in on them and they keep tossing it back. I wonder what happens when Greece just tells them to **** off. I see that happening in March- May. As soon as the Greek people figure out that all the relief $$$ are going to the bankers they'll say **** it. If we're gonna have to live within our means we can sure as hell do it without paying the bankers.
Wonderful ****ing times we live in. All I know is my 8 year old is not going to fight the pigman's wars.
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I'm already visualizing you with duct tape over your mouth.
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Bagbalm
Posts: 4264
Incept: 2009-03-19
Just North of Detroit
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The problem with a Jubilee is: Then what?
Start the long climb to another crash the same as before? That's no solution.
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Asimov
Posts: 104068
Incept: 2007-08-26
East Tennessee Eastern Time
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Jubilee is MASSIVELY misunderstood.
It's not "all debts are canceled"
If you know that there's going to be a jubilee in 20 years, would you write somebody a 30 year loan? Of course not.
If it's in 5 years, would you write them a 10 year loan? OF COURSE NOT!
That was the purpose of jubilee. To reduce the debt in an organized and methodical manner.
It's not something you just announce one day and all debt disappears. As you get closer and closer to the date of jubilee, the harder it is to get loans and IMPOSSIBLE to get loans that extend across the date.
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It's justifiably immoral to deal morally with an immoral entity.
If you trade based on what other people say, you will lose money. Especially what I say. I won't be held responsible. Festina lente.
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Anti
Posts: 4303
Incept: 2007-10-09
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I like Falcor's analogy. Here is a proposed tiny modification:
G = size of tumor
Weight of Patient = W
W = C + I + G + (x - i)
If W and G are increasing, that's good, right?
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Health is better than health insurance
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Over the past 60 years, thousands of people have used the Gerson Therapy to recover from so-called “incurable” diseases such as cancer, diabetes, heart disease and arthritis.
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Bagbalm
Posts: 4264
Incept: 2009-03-19
Just North of Detroit
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Asimov - then you have to adopt a regular periodic jubilee like described in the bible. I notice the Jewish state has not gone back to this religious law. It would certainly complicate their relationship with other nations. In an era of easy travel and international commerce it would have to be world wide and on the same time table or the wealthy would just leave or transfer funds as it approached.
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Asimov
Posts: 104068
Incept: 2007-08-26
East Tennessee Eastern Time
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Quote: then you have to adopt a regular periodic jubilee like described in the bible. EXACTLY!
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It's justifiably immoral to deal morally with an immoral entity.
If you trade based on what other people say, you will lose money. Especially what I say. I won't be held responsible. Festina lente.
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Wineaux
Posts: 533
Incept: 2009-03-23
pure Liquid pleasure
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Quote: All I know is my 8 year old is not going to fight the pigman's wars. A-****ing-men!!! It’s plausible to think this is how it will end.
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What wine goes with unemployment?
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Themortgagedude
Posts: 8853
Incept: 2007-12-17
saint louis
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There will be some kind of Jubilee. Not that which Asimov refers to but in the end that which cannot be paid will not be paid. Don't count on your gov pension and don't assume gov bonds will be repaid. Any gov bonds. For that matter I'm not sure that property rights will be respected either. K winter - you might be able to kick her down the road a little while but she will not be denied.
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I'm already visualizing you with duct tape over your mouth.
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