Tea Party Power Hour -- Panel Of Birthers (Again)
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2012-01-21 18:35
by Karl Denninger
in Interviews
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Tea Party Power Hour -- Panel Of Birthers (Again)
 

This is a good one....

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/markgillar/2012/01/21/experts-debate-obamas-birth-certificate

A guy who claims NOT to be an "Obot" but sure sounds like one... he debates like one too.....

Embed, for those who care to listen that way.... warning -- 2 hours!

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User Info Tea Party Power Hour -- Panel Of Birthers (Again) in forum [Market-Ticker]
Bagbalm
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Doesn't matter. No court will hear it. The point at which public indignation could be stirred is past. Old, old news. He could show up on camera with visibly organic deely boppers and it wouldn't matter.
Jrminter
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Karl, this must have been painful for the three of you and the moderator to put up with John Woodman. Mr. Woodman seems to have no concept of chain of custody. As someone who makes my living doing image analysis, I had looked at Karl's work and found it well-thought out and explained. After listening to John Woodman for an hour, I have no desire to read his book -- even as a free download. Just not impressed by what I heard from Woodman. The missing part of this issue is that the White House could have avoided all of the issues if they had just kept their hands off of it and authorized the Hawaii Dept of Records to release a certified copy. Simply inept for them to have no real chain of custody given all the questions about this.
Goforbroke
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Quote:
inept
Nothing, absolutely nothing this or any other administration does is "inept." They've all got stuff to hide. All of them.

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We have met the enemy and it is us. -- Pogo
Jrminter
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I stand by "inept." Any other choice: 1) not answering the accusations, 2) releasing a full-resolution, uncompressed scan, or 3) having the Hawaii DOR release it would have created less of a storm. Despite all their resources, "inept" is an accurate description of their handling this.
Crzymorse
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As Barack Obama would say " Hakuna Matata" .
Marsgate
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Listened to the whole program...

Dearest Dumb Woodman,

OMFG...Kill yourself.

Sincerely,

THE REST OF US.

Reason: caps...
Mortgageguymn
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I can't tell if Woodman is disingenuous or an honest idiot.
Squeekyfromm
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Well, it's 4:00 in the morning and I just finished listening to this. FWIW, I think Woodman is sincere, but there is no doubt that he got his rear end handed to him in the debate. I am an ex-Common Sense Suspicious Birther, who stopped being one about 3 days after Obama coughed up the long form. Now, I pretty much just debunk the two-citizen parent birthers who I never ever agreed with.

My OPINION is that Obama presented a manipulated long form image to keep the Birther issue alive and give his fan base something to feel intellectually superior about, and when all the investigation is done, he will truly be found to have been born in Hawaii. Anyway, as a ex-Birther, I listened to the Obot radio show that Woodman was on several months ago, and my OPINION is that he isn't an Obot. I asked a question in the comments box thingy part of the show about whether he agreed that the image released by Obama was "squirrelly" and he agreed on air that it was.

As somebody who used to debate the Obots a whole lot, one of the problems that I encountered was that they are not capable of "big picture" thinking, so they are at a disadvantage in debates. Add to that a unwarranted belief in their own intellectual superiority, and they tend to be lousy debaters to the objective listener. I suspect that Woodman has been hanging around the Obots too long and some of that has rubbed off on him.

As a result, Woodman got sloppy in his thinking, and made too many assumptions about what anybody who disagrees with him "must" believe. For example, the Obots used to constantly assume I believed all the two citizen parent stuff, or that I was concerned about the alleged 39 social security numbers to the point they could not address my real concerns about Obama. All "Birthers" are not alike, and neither are all persons who think there is something fishy about the long form image.

On one of the Obot radio shows comments thingy, I got into major arguments with the Obots about whether or not Mr. Denninger was a "Birther" and it was argued that him and all the other "long form image" doubters were people who would never have voted for Obama in the first place. I pointed out that Mr. Denninger actually DID vote for Obama, and was NOT claiming that the info on the long form was false, only that it was "manipulated. As you could expect, even with links back to here, it took a lot of arguing to penetrate the Obot pre-conceptions.

Anyway, all this crap may actually come to a head soon, both with the "birth certificate" Birthers, and the "two citizen parent" Birthers.

Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter

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Riposte
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Quote:

Now, I pretty much just debunk the two-citizen parent birthers who I never ever agreed with.


Uh, you can't "debunk the two-citizen parent birthers" because it's already been established by the Supreme Court (among others) that a natural born citizen must have two citizen parents. But I'd love to see you try!

Themortgagedude
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What USSC decision ? I wanted to forward that to someone.

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Lrs
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Quote:
What USSC decision ?

Minor v. Happersett, see: http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/hi....

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Sailordeek
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Your offspring lead the true "privileged" life. Seen the rest, you got it!
Goforbroke
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Live video coverage of the hearings on Thursday, starting at 9 AM ... http://www.art2superpac.com/

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Mangoelvis
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Did Minor v Happersett actually exclusively determine what a "natural born citizen" was? My understanding is that while it did define someone born in this country as a "citizen", and it did specifically address what defined a "natural born citizen", it does not say that ONLY a child born to two citizen parents is a "natural born citizen". In other words, it did not specifically exclude any other citizen from being considered "natural born." I could be wrong.

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Mortgageguymn
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It appears that the pertinent section of Minor B Happersett is:

"The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their [p168] parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts."

I don't see anything there that says that a natural born citizen must have been born of two citizens. I'm not saying that that definition of natural-born is wrong, but that definition isn't promulgated by Minor v Happersett. In fact, this sentence, "These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners" seems to conflate native-born and natural-born.

I don't see anything in this case that's dispositive.
Genesis
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It is not dispositive but it leaves the question settled ONLY as to those born to two citizen parents.

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What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?

Mortgageguymn
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Agreed. Maybe there are other relevant SCOTUS cases?
Genesis
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Nope.

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What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Blairkiel
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The Plaintiffs in the instant case make a different legal argument based strictly on constitutional interpretation. Specifically, the crux of the Plaintiffs' argument is that "[c]ontrary to the thinking of most People on the subject, there's a very clear distinction between a `citizen of the United States' and a `natural born Citizen,' and the difference involves having [two] parents of U.S. citizenship, owing no foreign allegiance." Appellants' Brief at 23. With regard to President Barack Obama, the Plaintiffs posit that because his father was a citizen of the United Kingdom, President Obama is constitutionally ineligible to assume the Office of the President.

The bases of the Plaintiffs' arguments come from such sources as FactCheck.org, The Rocky Mountain News, an eighteenth century treatise by Emmerich de Vattel titled "The Law of Nations," and various citations to nineteenth century congressional debate.[11] For the reasons stated below, we hold that the Plaintiffs' arguments fail to state a claim upon which relief can be granted, and that therefore the trial court did not err in dismissing the Plaintiffs' complaint.

Section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution governs who is a citizen of the United States. It provides that "[a]ll persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States . . . ." U.S. CONST. amend XIV, § 1. Article II has a special requirement to assume the Presidency: that the person be a "natural born Citizen." U.S. CONST. art. II, § 1, cl. 4. The United States Supreme Court has read these two provisions in tandem and held that "[t]hus new citizens may be born or they may be created by naturalization." Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. (21 Wall.) 162, 167, 22 L.Ed. 627 (1874). In Minor, written only six years after the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified, the Court observed that:

The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts.
686*686 Id. at 167-168, 22 L.Ed. 627. Thus, the Court left open the issue of whether a person who is born within the United States of alien parents is considered a natural born citizen.[12]

Then, in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, 18 S.Ct. 456, 42 L.Ed. 890 (1898), the United States Supreme Court confronted the question of "whether a child born in the United States, of parents of Chinese descent, who at the time of his birth are subject to the emperor of China. . . becomes at the time of his birth a citizen of the United States, by virtue of the first clause of the fourteenth amendment.. . ." 169 U.S. at 653, 18 S.Ct. at 458. We find this case instructive. The Court in Wong Kim Ark reaffirmed Minor in that the meaning of the words "citizen of the United States" and "natural-born citizen of the United States" "must be interpreted in the light of the common law, the principles and history of which were familiarly known to the framers of the constitution." Id. at 654, 18 S.Ct. at 459. They noted that "[t]he interpretation of the constitution of the United States is necessarily influenced by the fact that its provisions are framed in the language of the English common law, and are to be read in the light of its history." Id. at 655, 18 S.Ct. at 459 (quoting Smith v. Alabama, 124 U.S. 465, 478, 8 S.Ct. 564, 569, 31 L.Ed. 508 (1888)). The Wong Kim Ark Court explained:

The fundamental principle of the common law with regard to English nationality was birth within the allegiance-also called `ligealty,' `obedience,' `faith,' or `power'-of the king. The principle embraced all persons born within the king's allegiance, and subject to his protection. Such allegiance and protection were mutual,-as expressed in the maxim, `Protectio trahit subjectionem, et subjectio protectionem,'-and were not restricted to natural-born subjects and naturalized subjects, or to those who had taken an oath of allegiance; but were predicable of aliens in amity, so long as they were within the kingdom. Children, born in England, of such aliens, were therefore natural-born subjects. But the children, born within the realm, of foreign ambassadors, or the children of alien enemies, born during and within their hostile occupation of part of the king's dominions, were not natural-born subjects, because not born within the allegiance, the obedience, or the power, or, as would be said at this day, within the jurisdiction, of the king.
This fundamental principle, with these qualifications or explanations of it, was clearly, though quaintly, stated in the leading case known as `Calvin's Case,' or the `Case of the Postnati,' decided in 1608, after a hearing in the exchequer chamber before the lord chancellor and all the judges of England, and reported by Lord Coke and by Lord Ellesmere. Calvin's Case, 7 Coke, 1, 4b-6a, 18a, 18b; Ellesmere, Postnati, 62-64; s. c. 2 How. St. Tr. 559, 607, 613-617, 639, 640, 659, 679.
The English authorities ever since are to the like effect. Co. Litt. 8a, 128b; Lord Hale, in Harg. Law Tracts, 210, and in 1 Hale, P.C. 61, 62; 1 Bl. Comm. 366, 369, 370, 374; 4 Bl. Comm. 74, 92; Lord Kenyon, in Doe v. Jones, 4 Term R. 300, 308; Cockb. Nat. 7; Dicey, Confl. Laws, pp. 173-177, 741.
687*687 * * * * * *
Lord Chief Justice Cockburn . . . said: `By the common law of England, every person born within the dominions of the crown, no matter whether of English or of foreign parents, and, in the latter case, whether the parents were settled, or merely temporarily sojourning, in the country, was an English subject, save only the children of foreign ambassadors (who were excepted because their fathers carried their own nationality with them), or a child born to a foreigner during the hostile occupation of any part of the territories of England. No effect appears to have been given to descent as a source of nationality.' Cockb. Nat. 7.
Mr. Dicey, in his careful and thoughtful Digest of the Law of England with Reference to the Conflict of Laws, published in 1896, states the following propositions, his principal rules being printed below in italics: "British subject' means any person who owes permanent allegiance to the crown. `Permanent' allegiance is used to distinguish the allegiance of a British subject from the allegiance of an alien, who, because he is within the British dominions, owes `temporary' allegiance to the crown. `Natural-born British subject' means a British subject who has become a British subject at the moment of his birth.' `Subject to the exceptions hereinafter mentioned, any person who (whatever the nationality of his parents) is born within the British dominions is a natural-born British subject. This rule contains the leading principle of English law on the subject of British nationality.' The exceptions afterwards mentioned by Mr. Dicey are only these two: `(1) Any person who (his father being an alien enemy) is born in a part of the British dominions, which at the time of such person's birth is in hostile occupation, is an alien.' `(2) Any person whose father (being an alien) is at the time of such person's birth an ambassador or other diplomatic agent accredited to the crown by the sovereign of a foreign state is (though born within the British dominions) an alien.' And he adds: `The exceptional and unimportant instances in which birth within the British dominions does not of itself confer British nationality are due to the fact that, though at common law nationality or allegiance in substance depended on the place of a person's birth, it in theory at least depended, not upon the locality of a man's birth, but upon his being born within the jurisdiction and allegiance of the king of England; and it might occasionally happen that a person was born within the dominions without being born within the allegiance, or, in other words, under the protection and control of the crown.' Dicey, Confl. Laws, pp. 173-177, 741.
It thus clearly appears that by the law of England for the last three centuries, beginning before the settlement of this country, and continuing to the present day, aliens, while residing in the dominions possessed by the crown of England, were within the allegiance, the obedience, the faith or loyalty, the protection, the power, and the jurisdiction of the English sovereign; and therefore every child born in England of alien parents was a natural-born subject, unless the child of an ambassador or other diplomatic agent of a foreign state, or of an alien enemy in hostile occupation of the place where the child was born.
III. The same rule was in force in all the English colonies upon this continent down to the time of the Declaration of Independence, and in the United States afterwards, and continued to prevail under the constitution as originally established.[13]
688*688 Id. at 655-658, 18 S.Ct. at 459-460.

Also, as quoted in Wong Kim Ark, Justice Joseph Story once declared in Inglis v. Trustees of Sailors' Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. (3 Pet.) 99, 7 L.Ed. 617 (1830), that "Nothing is better settled at the common law than the doctrine that the children, even of aliens, born in a country, while the parents are resident there under the protection of the government, and owing a temporary allegiance thereto, are subjects by birth." Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. at 660, 18 S.Ct. at 461 (quoting Inglis, 28 U.S. (3 Pet.) at 164 (Story, J., concurring)). The Court also cited Justice Curtis's dissent in Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. (19 How.) 393, 15 L.Ed. 691 (1856):

The first section of the second article of the constitution uses the language, `a natural-born citizen.' It thus assumes that citizenship may be acquired by birth. Undoubtedly, this language of the constitution was used in reference to that principle of public law, well understood in this country at the time of the adoption of the constitution, which referred citizenship to the place of birth.
Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. at 662, 18 S.Ct. at 462 (quoting Dred Scott, 60 U.S. (19 How.) at 576 (Curtis, J., dissenting)).

The Court in Wong Kim Ark also cited authority which notes that:

All persons born in the allegiance of the king are natural-born subjects, and all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens. Birth and allegiance go together. Such is the rule of the common law, and it is the common law of this country, as well as of England. We find no warrant for the opinion that this great principle of the common law has ever been changed in the United States. It has always obtained here with the same vigor, and subject only to the same exceptions, since as before the Revolution.
Id. at 662-663, 18 S.Ct. at 462 (quotations and citations omitted). The Court held that Mr. Wong Kim Ark was a citizen of the United States "at the time of his birth."[14] Id. at 705, 18 S.Ct. at 478.

Based upon the language of Article II, Section 1, Clause 4 and the guidance provided by Wong Kim Ark, we conclude that persons born within the borders of the United States are "natural born Citizens" for Article II, Section 1 purposes, regardless of the citizenship of their parents. Just as a person "born within the British dominions [was] a natural-born British subject" at the time of the framing of the U.S. Constitution, so too were those "born in the allegiance of the United States [] natural-born citizens."[15]


http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?c....




Riposte
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Wong Kim Ark really has nothing at all to do with natural born citizens.

The Supreme Court in Wong Kim Ark only construed the question of who was a "citizen" under the 14th Amendment, it did not construe Article 2 Section 1.
Thomasblair
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Copy/paste of a comment left at Mr. Woodman's blog. I wonder if I'll get a straight answer. :o

thomasblair says:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
January 28, 2012 at 10:51 am

Mr. Woodman,

I just finished listening to the debate hosted by Mark Gillar. I took your advice and downloaded the book and started flipping through. Pg 77 caught my attention (the identical o’s and i’s in the clip from “Truth Stranger Than Fiction”).

You mentioned that you can find other examples of identical-to-the-pixel duplications of letters and show a passage with 5 letters circled (3 o’s, 2 i’s). I looked at them and although they are similar, they are not identical. My notations are on the files here (links to pdf files stored at dropbox):

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3634363/p77%2C%2.... (in-context i’s with notations)
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3634363/p77%2C%2.... (enlarged i’s with notations)

As I’ve pointed out, these are not the same character down-to-the-pixel, so I don’t understand how this is a rebuttal of 3TruthSeeker33′s argument. Can you explain why this is a good counter-argument?
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