Is Recognition Finally Gelling?
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2012-01-21 13:10
by Karl Denninger
in Editorial
Ignore this thread
Is Recognition Finally Gelling?
 

On April 1st 2007 the very first Tickers were written.  In just a bit over two months, The Market Ticker will be five years of age.

And through that time The Market Ticker has pointed out one central fact behind everything published here: You cannot spend more than you take in on an indefinite basis.

This, of course, is anathema to a nation -- and a world, really -- that has done exactly that for more than three decades.  Many of the citizens of the world -- those under about 35 (as your first few years of life have little direct connection in a cerebral sense to economics) have never known a world where overspending and ponzi economics was not practiced.

You can't exactly flaw people for not understanding that a thing is broken when they've never experienced life in any other way.  And for those who are somewhat older, those of us who remember the 1970s, the oil shocks, gas lines and 5 gallon purchase limits along with grocery store prices that seemed to double every six months (it wasn't quite that bad -- but it was bad!) it is easy to get the mistaken impression that what we've had for the last 30 years "fixed" what was broken in the 1970s.

It didn't, of course. 

The world had run on it a simple fraud covered in various layers of complexity to hide it from the common man, just as has been done many times before.  The 1920s were the same thing, basically, minus the computers but also minus fast information sharing.  The land swindles of the day in Florida were almost identical to the condo-flipping schemes here in the Panhandle when you boiled them all down; tiny down payments on construction not yet initiated, the promise of ever-higher valuations, carnival-style barkers spinning rags-to-riches stories and you only needed $10,000 to get in "on the ground floor" of an elevator that would take you to the sky.  Sign right here mister, and your life of luxury and privilege will begin.

Uh huh.

Last night the yarn-spinning continued on Greece.  Bloomberg said:

Greece and its private creditors said early today they had made progress during talks in Athens on a debt-swap accord needed to lower the country’s borrowings and clear the way for a second round of international aid.

“The elements of an unprecedented voluntary private-sector involvement are coming into place,” according to an e-mailed statement from Charles Dallara, managing director of the Institute of International Finance, a Washington-based lobby group representing creditors negotiating with the government.

Sure they did.  Sure Greece is going to pay debts of more than 100% of its GDP -- even after the "restructuring."  And sure this is "voluntary" -- in more-or-less the same way that it's "voluntary" that you hand over your wallet when there's a gun up your nose.

The real problem is that people -- and governments -- borrowed money they couldn't pay back off their economic surplus.  For a private-sector entity (a person or company) economic surplus is easy to define -- it's what you have left after you spend on the bare necessities of life.  When those necessities (such as your house) become part of the overborrowing then the situation appears more complex but it really isn't -- you just "upscaled" your view of what was a "necessity."

But let's face facts -- a trashy trailer on a 100x50' piece of rented land with utility connections is more than the "bare necessities" when it comes to housing -- by a lot!  I lived in a little 400sq/ft one-bedroom apartment for a good while when I was just getting started and that was more than "bare necessities" (by a lot) for even modern comforts.  A studio would have been sufficient, since I had no dependents and was single.

The same applies to transportation.  Most people today in the United States are driving around in vehicles that have values that are two, three, five or even ten times the cost of "basic necessities" for the required task (getting to work, the grocery store, etc.)  It was in fact in the recent-enough past that I owned said vehicles that the "basic car" had an AM radio with one speaker, a manual transmission, no air conditioning, no power door locks, no power windows, no power steering, no power seats and the seat coverings were vinyl.  You could also see (and work on) all sides of the engine and the road under it when you popped the hood.

In fact, one of the pieces of said "basic transportation" that I owned in my earlier years (and drove to work every day) was one of these:

Before that I had one of these in considerably worse condition than pictured (it was gray and had a smashed-in passenger side door from a collision prior to my acquiring it for a literal cost of $100.)

THOSE were "basic transportation" and not only where they cheap to buy they cost almost-nothing to insure because there was no reason to have collision or comprehensive coverage on them!  The Vega, incidentally, consumed a quart of oil per tank of gas on good days (and worse on bad ones) along with having a habit of slowly eating coolant.  Yeah.

I'm not saying you shouldn't own this, incidentally:

IF you can afford it without debt, and without spending more than you make.  That is, if you can pay for it using your personal economic surplus.

But recognition of these facts is rather jarring for most people.  Some of us grew up understanding it; our parents owned one car that was much nicer than the other (and was used to get to work) while the other was, literally, "basic transportation" (with no power anything and no air conditioning) if we had a second car at all.  We rode bicycles to our friend's home rather than being carted around by "soccer moms" in no small part because driving the car cost money; the bike cost only human power.  Nice bicycles (which most of us could not afford) had 10 speeds; the more-ordinary ones that nearly all of us actually owned had coaster brakes and one speed. 

Let's put this in a slightly-different perspective.  The poverty level income for a single person in the United States today (as of 2011) is $10,890.  Many people reading this, perhaps most, spend more than 1/10th of that on their cellphone bills.  A further significant proportion of the population spends more than 1/10th of this on their cable or satellite TV bill and the overlap between the two is significant.

That is, a very significant percentage of the population spends more than a quarter of poverty level income on two luxury and entertainment items which are utterly unnecessary.

Again, none of this is a problem if you can afford it.

But what should you have paid for first?

Well, for one, a very significant financial reserve.  Your retirement, for example, never mind a cushion in case something goes wrong (like losing your job.)

With governments its equally-simple: Government gets all of its money by taxing it.

Yes, all of it.

I know, some people will say "they can print it!" or "they can borrow it!" but in fact on a long enough timeline all of that is taxed.

If the currency is debased the taxation happens immediately and hits everyone at once.  If it's borrowed then the taxes fall on you tomorrow, assuming it's ever paid back.  There's no real difference, when you boil it all down, other than the immediacy of payment.

All of it, in the end, comes down to taxing you -- taking your money and giving it to someone else.

That's all government does.

This weekend dawned with the news that Greece's creditors have walked out of their meeting.  That in and of itself is probably not all that important.  What is important, however, is the rising tide of speeches coming from various government officers in Europe recognizing that deficit spending has to end.

It's not just there -- Fed President Dennis Lockhart has said the same thing about the United States.  What was just a few lone bloggers in the wilderness a few years ago, myself included, has now turned to policy-makers inside and outside of the government itself. 

At the core of this problem is the buying of votes with money that doesn't exist.  It's very popular to do things like that, as having the necessary adult conversation regarding the sustainable level of spending by government -- and the adjustment that comes to GDP and thus overall consumption when overspending stops -- tends to bring revolt at the ballot box.

But there comes a time when the political expedience of vote-buying and other chicanery simply cannot be sustained any more.  We're within sight of that cliff, and if we do not act we will go over it. 

If you remember the speeches from Bernanke in the 2008/09 time frame he counseled that we must get our budget deficit under control in the "intermediate term."  But exactly what is "the intermediate term?"  This again leads back to the fundamental nature of exponential growth and how badly you're screwed if you ignore it.

In 1980 the Federal Government spent $53 billion on health care all-in. Last year it was about $820 billion.  That's a roughly 9% compounded rate of increase.

The rule of 72 says that this means the spending will double again in roughly 8 more years (2019) to $1.64 trillion, then in 8 more (2027) to $3.28 trillion, which is approximately the size of the entire federal budget today.

Obviously that won't happen as you can't raise that much money, but that's exactly what our politicians are promising people over the age of 50 when they say "Medicare will not change for those over 50" as that rate of expansion simply gets you to where you qualify at age 65!  There will be two more doublings required to get you to 80 years of age, which (if it was possible) would rack that number to over $13 trillion dollars -- close to the size of the entire economy today.

Bluntly: Such claims are a lie.

What's worse is the curve when you look at government debt.  Let's chart it:

Pick a point on that graph.  Even at the most-optimistic number -- 2006 or 2007, when we were creating massive amounts of private credit to prop up an about-to-explode housing bubble -- federal debt was still growing at over 6% a year.  That means it was doubling every 12 years!

In 2008 and 2009 we grew it at 15% or more a year.  That means it was doubling every 4.8 years.

Does anyone really think we'll get away with either of those statistics given what we now know is happening in Greece and elsewhere in Europe?  Remember, Japan, which is the common poster child for this, came into their government debt binge with massive private savings -- savings that have been essentially all consumed by that binge.  We never had the private savings in the first place, which means we have nothing to consume in previously-earned economic surplus!

Folks, there is not one year in the last decade during which we can point to a sustainable level of debt.  If you go back into the 1990s there were a few years during which federal debt expanded at a much-more-modest rate, but those were years during which private credit creation was expanding exponentially in place of the government (through the Internet bubble.)

There isn't any way out of this through more government debt.  It has to stop, and stop now, because the nature of exponential growth is that the rate of damage accelerates.

If you read (again) my Ticker from 10-18 of last year, you should understand what's going on -- and what we face.  This is simply not about what I want, what I'd like, what pundits would like to do or anything of the sort.

It is about mathematical reality.

Think about exactly how much further we can expand government spending in this regard and not have the entire economy collapse around us.  Then reduce that percentage of increase to "doubling times" and you know where the wall is, in your best estimate.  Nobody who does this exercise can come up with a number that is larger than the number of fingers you have on one hand.

Look, I don't like what taking our medicine means, and the reason I wrote Leverage was because I had gotten very tired of people saying "nobody could have seen this coming."  In addition, there are a whole host of people who have sounded the warning horns for a while, yet they have no cogent plan to resolve the problem or help buffer the inevitable (and severe) pain that must be endured.  Some of them, including some political candidates for President this time around, understand the problem and even propose massive budget changes (e.g. $1 trillion a year in spending cuts) yet have no plan to buffer the economy and the people from what will, left alone, be a contraction in overall GDP of up to 25% and the Depression that will inevitably come with it -- a Depression worse than the 1930s!  That is outrageously irresponsible and worse it will never get passed because without those buffers it is not only unnecessarily harsh but could lead to the collapse of both civil order and our government.

But irrespective of what I would like to see, or what politicians promise, this adjustment -- the necessary adjustment -- is coming.  It cannot be stopped.  It is mathematically certain, whether people like Bernanke, Obama, Romney and others wish to face it or not.

Your choice is whether to face these facts in your personal and economic life, preparing to the extent you're able, or whether you will be one of those who claim that you were "blindsided" by the inevitable that you were simply unwilling to face.

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User Info Is Recognition Finally Gelling? in forum [Market-Ticker]
Dakine2004
Posts: 9231
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Gold A True American Patriot!
MD.MI.NC.SD.
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From 2009 ---- wonder what the latest assessment says...


Quote:
WASHINGTON, Feb. 15, 2009 -- The global economic crisis colors all other threats confronting the United States, the new director of national intelligence told the U.S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence on Feb. 12.
Jazen
Posts: 3417
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****cago
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The question is, how much longer can it go on? How many more years before we actually hit a wall? Because, while I agree with Karl that it must stop, all of it, the Medicare stupidity, the SS stupidity, the defence stupidity, it won't until they are FORCED to. And they will be forced to when we hit the proverbial brick wall.

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I hate our Government, but I still love America.
Eaglewwit
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Can't argue with the Math, but I would argue that in economics the laws of math can be overtaken by the will and strength of the status quo. Economics in the end is a study of human behavior and not really math. All those in power have to do is slowly adjust the rules to their benefit, the slow boil of the frog. That really is what we have been witnessing. The only thing that can affect it is a change in the perception of the frogs/sheep. I just don't see it. Most people really are just too stupid.
Checkthisout
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Quote:

Some of them, including some political candidates for President this time around, understand the problem and even propose massive budget changes (e.g. $1 trillion a year in spending cuts) yet have no plan to buffer the economy and the people from what will, left alone, be a contraction in overall GDP of up to 25% and the Depression that will inevitably come with it -- a Depression worse than the 1930s!


Tough beans. I don't care if people's standard of living takes a huge hit. All responsible adults have lived within their means, staying away from unreasonable debt their whole lives. Somebody has to be the adult and take the needle out of the junkie to force the inevitable withdrawal. It sounds like you're prescribing some sort of multi-step withdrawal plan. What do you think can be done to 'ease' the pain? Spread it out over the next decade? I doubt that is a workable solution and you know it probably won't work either.

And you know why - because no Congress is bound by any prior one. AND, they can be replaced every two years. Once ANY pain begins to be felt by the voters, the responsible Congressmen will get thrown out, get replaced by a bunch of pandering fools and we'll end up right back where we are now. That is why the change must be swift and severe. I don't think we can spread this pain out over more than one, Congressional term.

I'll take that over the brick wall.

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There are no gun free zones where free men tread.
Rantor
Posts: 1
Incept: 2012-01-21

VA
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Karl,

I love your page, have been reading for years. Finally registered. I am unfortunately convinced that little is gelling with anyone. 25M decided to watch Jersey Shore and American Idol vs 5M for the Republican debate. Most people don't care much as long as the checkbook at home balances. All the government stuff is funny money to them. I bet a majority in South Carolina don't even understand the evil that is the Fed nor the link between income taxes and funding major wars. It is complex and the public school system exists to dumb people down.

Unfortunately for america, fiat currencies and budgets are governed by laws that will once again show themselves to be as ruthless as physics. Once extend and pretend ends and the dominoes start falling things will look very different. Unfortunately, few will learn and understand what caused the crash, just as Bernanke the so-called Depression Historian doesn't understand the depression as well as Rothbard does. (If you haven't read "America's Great Depression" by Murray Rothbard, do so at once)

THey won't learn because they will be too busy trying to survive.

PS: I too once owned an AMC Pacer, lemon yellow, great shape, three speed manual (my first stickshift) $700.00. Radio and AC, it did just fine.
Mannfm11
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I will tell you how long it can go on Jaz. As long as the rest of the world is willing to go along. Once inflation can't be exported and the game can't be internally supported, game over. 10% inflation is 13% treasuries, 15% mortgages and if it is in view of an accellerating rate, add another 2% or 3% to the rates. Sell houses at that price?

Japan is going to blow up. The CDS market rate is roughly 150% of the interest rate on the same bonds. The Euro market is going to blow up. The math doesn't work and most of the financing is the bankrupts borrowing so they can lend to themselves. The US is stuck in a perpetual trade game, where a world set up on the dollar dictated the rest of the world hoard them or dollar equivalents. There isn't a substitute because there isn't another currency that everyone has to have to solve some kind of debt. They can't run a game of money by decree without widely recognized debt associated with the money. Might was well be getting S&H Green stamps. The system we have today worked only because it was originally established under gold and silver and changed in a debt deflationary time. Despite the gold backing under Bretton Woods, the world needed the dollars, not the gold. Only we have French participation.

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The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.---John Kenneth Galbraith
Swingtrader
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well, a lot slower than I would like - and not by leaps and bounds - but, more and more people are starting to "get" it.

Increasing numbers of people realize that the economy and financial situation is not going to improve. Increasing numbers of boomers realize that "voodoo" economics doesn't work.

People are not _really_ stupid - they are distracted, too focused on dancing with the stars, too stressed out. But, in this part of the western Carolinas where I live - people understand that food is increasing, jobs are tough to get - my daughter in law came for coffee this AM. My son and her are always polite, but I can tell that my TF type conversations are not topics they wish to talk about.

This morning, she was talking about how friends of hers that used to go to the hair salon would spend say $130 a trip - now drop their tab to close to half, and make fewer trips. DIL is a former massage therapist who quit when she married my son. They've been married 7 years, during that time massage therapists have been leaving the field in droves - the clientele is not there anymore.

If you have been working at the same place 30 years, are doing well and have great prospects, you sleep fine. However, you know your kids, their spouses and friends are having it tougher, so more and more people just simply don't believe the media and govt.

So, I am hopeful we are getting there.


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Swing said "Well, it is collapsing as we watch.This is what it looks like." Australian federal judge Jayne Jagot, doing what US judges need to do!
Marvinmartian
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Quote:
It's not just there -- Fed President Dennis Lockhart has said the same thing about the United States.

I'm reading a recent speech by Lockhart, on the Atlanta Fed website:
http://www.frbatlanta.org/news/speeches/....

Lockhart wrote..
Deleveraging going forward
For the economy as a whole, debt relative to GDP has barely changed.

While the private sector—households and businesses—has made notable progress in lowering its debt burden, discussions of how to reduce public debt have only just begun. The government still needs to introduce major policy changes to put public debt on a sustainable path. Demographic trends, which I referenced earlier, will make public debt reduction even more challenging.

It is necessary that the process of deleveraging plays itself out, which may take several more years. When economies are deleveraging they cannot grow as rapidly as they might otherwise. It is obvious that as consumers reduce spending they divert more of their incomes to paying off debt. This shift in consumer behavior increases the amount of capital available for financing investment. But higher rates of business investment are not likely to fully offset weakness in consumer spending for some time, as businesses continue to grapple with uncertainties about the future.


He speaks in codewords, but the message is similar. Everyone is grappling with uncertainties about the future.

Have we reached "peak uncertainty"?
20yr2debtfreeusa
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Rockville MD
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I drove a camback Vega as a caddy on the PGA tour in 1973. Gas was 0.32 cents a gallon and we mostly slept outside. A club pro I knew in the late 70's drove a Pacer.
They were good times, sigh, but I wish I had bought some farmland and learned how to farm.
Now it's time to reread books like Alas Babylon and The Postman and to prepare for the "Great Adjustment" thats about to come.
Karl, thanks for reminding everyone of the situation..I just wish that someone would open a bank that kept 100% reserves in dollar coins in the vault, so I could transfer my IRA money...which is everything I have to live on besides my wits.
Marvinmartian
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20yr2debtfreeusa wrote..
Now it's time to reread books like Alas Babylon and The Postman and to prepare for the "Great Adjustment" thats about to come.


Both those novels are addressing the aftermath of hostile action by foreign power.

The causes of our current situation are very different, we either did it to ourselves by borrowing or stood by without protest while politicians did it by even more borrowing.

We will have to delever. I think that means a lot of pain. Strauss and Howe have a book called "The Fourth Turning" that is a better description of how societal changes have played out in history than either "Alas Babylon" or "The Postman".

We are all going to have to reinvent ourselves to exist in an evolving global economy. Food production is only a tiny part of it.

Reason: add last paragraph
Rule10
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The fact that so few watched the debate could be interpreted as a good sign. It could mean people are tuning out because they finally realize that the debates are a farce. They should do to the debates what they do to other poorly supported programming. CANCEL THEM.

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You are not what you say you are, You are what you do.
End_the_bubbles
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Quote:
I had gotten very tired of people saying "nobody could have seen this coming."


Yeah, I'm also sick and damn tired of hearing that, but fully expect to hear even more of it when the inevitable collapse eventuates out of mathematical inevitability....

By the way Karl, too bad you don't still have that Pacer! That thing would be a classic now. Rolling around in that today would be a total babe magnet, even more than the Porsche! smiley

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In the long run even the most despotic governments with all their brutality and cruelty are no match for ideas. Eventually the ideology that has won the support of the majority will prevail and cut the ground from under the tyrant's feet and rise in rebellion to overthrow their masters.
Genesis
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That I actually managed to have a relationship with a fantastic young woman while owning that car, and actually picked a woman up in it and went on a date with her, was amazing enough. That she was cute was even more so.

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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Mike2007
Posts: 24
Incept: 2011-02-27

Oakland, CA
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I always struggle to step back and get the bigger picture.
In the 70's we burnt through the little private savings we had.
In the last 30 years we made (most) people take on debt up to their max.
Also for the last decade the Chinese were kind enough to work almost for free, i.e. for nicely colored pieces of paper. That's coming to an end and no other large country remains to jump in.

Anything left to loot?
Maybe corporate savings or their ability to borrow more - I don't know.
Else I only see the continuing devaluation of future promises (SS, Medicxxx) up to utter worthlessness.

Did I miss something?
Rd
Posts: 470
Incept: 2008-02-27
Gold
Long Island, NY
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I had some hope when Obama came to power maybe he would be able to explain to the masses what Karl has said repeatably for five years, after all Obama really had the gift to communicate with the people at the bottom.

But I now see the future as War & Confiscation of wealth.

To me Obama must have been talked/forced into this path, it a shame he could have made history as a really great leader with setting the US back on course.

Sean
Posts: 1766
Incept: 2009-04-21

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Karl, Your best ticker!

Hey CheckThisOut, how's life over there in The Containment Area for Relocated Yankees!

Hey Mike don't forget like Karl says when the market loses 60-80+% you will see gov come and and promise to make all IRA's and 401ks hole (pun intended) by promising a gov annunity of some sorts if they put there IRA's/401ks in Gov bonds.

Yes, I have taken out all of my IRA and 401k monies that I can - total penalty ~35%. I recommend everybody under the age of 40 (probably 50 but I am being conservative) to GET THE HELL OUT OF THEIR 401k/IRA's, etc YESTERDAY! BTW, I am 38.

On Friday I just paid off the remainder of my loan (not a mortgage loan - just a un-secured installment loan for $15,000 to augment my cash to purchase my condo) for my condo - $7,600 and now I am 100% debt free, No debt whatsoever, drive a car I paid $4,200 in Oct 2002 and it currently has 246k miles on it and it has its issues and I put $2,500 into it last year (BTW - no more money will be put into it except brakes/oil, etc) but I don't drive much and it just keeps going and going and going - yes it's a (1995) Honda Accord sedan vtech v4.

Last but not least, please see my tagline on how long this can go on until J6P wakes up.

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* I think Ann Barnhardt is more and more right. God help us!
* Progressives / Marxists / Communists are many things, STUPID and IMPATIENT are not two of them.
* A hot civil war is coming.
* And people wonder why I prep!

Flappingeagle
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Lol, I was making close to 6 figures while I drove the same vehicle for 13 years. That's not a typo, I kept a vehicle that I paid cash for, and it was my only vehicle, for 13 years.

Flap

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Here are my predictions for everyone to see:
S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu.
"You can't build a house of cards on a shaking table." - Tony Johns
The January 2015 AMZN put at $130 (cost $4.25) will be a winner.
Zzt
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"Is Recognition Finally Gelling?"

I still believe that RP will never win the nomination nor will he win as a third candidate but...............................................

He is getting the message out to Americans who are listening. You dont have to win to have an impact. Kudos RP.
Swingtrader
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zzt wrote..
I still believe that RP will never win the nomination nor will he win as a third candidate but.....He is getting the message out to Americans who are listening. You dont have to win to have an impact. Kudos RP.


I voted for Ron Paul today. Don't expect him to be Pres. But I liked him better than the other candidates, and the more support he gets, the more mainspring airtime he gets and the more the message gets out.

More than one person at TF doesn't support Paul for various reasons. I've got more than one problem myself with support of Paul.

Even so, beats the hell out of those who lick the balls of the bankers prior to giving their blow jobs.

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Swing said "Well, it is collapsing as we watch.This is what it looks like." Australian federal judge Jayne Jagot, doing what US judges need to do!
Jslique
Posts: 466
Incept: 2008-07-28
Silver
Melbourne
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I am amazed that the economy has not collapsed by now. Who the f... lends money to any entity that is spending 1.5 trillion dollars a year year after year and keeps doing it.
Bond rates at all time lows etc etc. Stock market on the up and up.

There must be just so so much wealth still around.

For those not the privileged ones, who paying our bills and putting food on the table through having a reasonable job the story is not good.
We have exported all of our manufacturing jobs to Asia and they are not coming back. Those educated idiots that believe the service industries can pick up the slack are overpaid and fools. Those with jobs are feeling pretty safe as in if any more are sacked the doors will close as there is no more fat.
But if you loose your job it is a much much different story. Yes I speak from experience. Those who have work really have no idea what it is like.

One thing I have noticed lately is the news reports here in Aus are preparing us for worse to come. The government is now openly saying that things are liable to get worse this year. Something must be brewing.

Thanks again Karl for opening my eyes to the truth of this economic mess and giving me time to prepare for what is coming
Widgeon
Posts: 13481
Incept: 2007-08-30
Green
Region formerly known as the United States
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Quote:
I will tell you how long it can go on Jaz. As long as the rest of the world is willing to go along.


That's it right there. Until a Nation (or nations) of CONSEQUENCE decides to break ranks, it will go on.
Nomorespin
Posts: 1497
Incept: 2007-07-17
Green A True American Patriot!
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The Pacer was the ultimate chick magent. I'm shocked automakers such as AMC aren't making a legacy version. Oh wait... Nevermind.
Bullionaire
Posts: 2222
Incept: 2007-12-21
Silver A True American Patriot!
Fear The People
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I ate Pacers for breakfast in one of these babies.
My cost? $100, plus another 30 or so to get it out of the tow pound. It had a leaky radiator hose, so I filled about 10 gallon containers with water, left the radiator cap off, and drove it home, lifting the hood and pouring in more water at many stoplights.... all the way from beautiful Front St in Philly to the Main Line. Then I traded some beer for a length of radiator hose and fixed it. No joke. Somehow, I don't see my friends kids as willing or capable of something like that.

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"Anytime a financial company can take your hard earned money and keep it for decades without promising a set return, and even penalize you for early withdrawal it is a con. America has been conned by the whole 401K concept." - Ignorance Is Bliss, from a ZH comment section


Reason: additional sarcasm needed........
Mortgageguymn
Posts: 1566
Incept: 2009-03-09
Green
North Coast
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There were a lot more beaters on the road twenty years ago. At least my kids understand that a big part of why they can't buy basic transportation for cheap now is that many of those perfectly good cars were CRUSHED as part of Cash-For-Clunkers.

Mannfm11, I believe what you said and want to sell my house but don't want to move. I wish I could do a sale and lease-back and then buy it back for a lot cheaper. Is there a put option on home values.... that would pay out after the apocalypse?
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