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| Draghi: "Banks Afraid To Buy Greek Bonds" in forum [Market-Ticker]
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Bertdilbert
Posts: 2661
Incept: 2008-12-22
CA
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It all holds together as long as the market believes the Federal Reserve will buy everything. The moment the market perceives the Fed will not be there to fix interest rates (bond values) we have a problem.
The exception to this would be if inflation reared it's head to make holding paper destructive to one's wealth. With a deep recession in Europe likely, excessive inflation is not likely in the cards.
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Dear Euroland: Relax, Germany has a plan for your money!
Political Capital Defined: We are out of money but will tax our citizens for whatever it takes to "SAVE" the Euro.
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Jubber
Posts: 14057
Incept: 2007-07-05
UK
Online
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So how many are the ECB already holding which they took as collateral?
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“The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of other people’s money.” Thatcher
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Saschaefer
Posts: 35
Incept: 2009-06-29
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"You voted for politicians ... You thus in fact actively participated, condoned and demanded these frauds and as a consequence are owed exactly nothing."
A (very) few of us refuse to vote for this very reason; of course, we are also owed exactly nothing, but at least not as a consequence of active participation.
However, as with most issues, it is a FAR more complex than either your statement, or my ultimate conclusion regarding the simple binary alternative of casting a ballot or not.
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Mdm
Posts: 333
Incept: 2010-10-13
South Florida
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Quote:Governments borrow because what the people voted for they were unwilling to pay for via taxes. And this type of debt get the "risk-free rate". Nice. I want it, but I don't want to pay for it. Charge it! |
Jamesbond
Posts: 589
Incept: 2009-01-31
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Quote:Rather than tell the truth the government then commits fraud upon everyone in the investment community, in concert with the banks (commercial and central) and "sells debt" that they have no intention of ever paying off. Back in the day when countries had growing GDP, it was reasonable to assume that the debt could be repaid. Thus, taking on debt was not fraudulent. But when you're in a chronic recession (like Greece) amid forced austerity, then there is no reasonable likelihood that the debt will be repaid, absent massive tax increases. Taking on debt when you know there is zero prospect of repayment could be fraudulent, but it would be nearly impossible to prove. |
Genesis
Posts: 130733
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Quote:Back in the day when countries had growing GDP, it was reasonable to assume that the debt could be repaid. Sorry, nope. Not since 1980.  More than 30 years of fraud in each and every instance.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Marvinmartian
Posts: 750
Incept: 2011-03-16
Pasadena, CA
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Gen wrote..Sorry, nope. Not since 1980. Prior to 1980 we had pretty fierce financial repression, which showed up as high inflation and interest rates that nearly kept up with inflation. That pushed people into higher and higher tax brackets and they were worse off. Those on fixed incomes were reduced to eating petfood. This is the era of California's Proposition 13 which limited property taxes because they were rising so fast. For older folks, property taxes go to be more than the mortgage. What changed in 1980? I conclude we collectively decided to borrow rather than inflate our way to pay for government spending. I say problems didn't just start in 1980, it just had the symptoms change at that time. |
Flappingeagle
Posts: 1227
Incept: 2011-04-14
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"ECB's Draghi says banks reluctant to buy Greek bonds because afraid they won't be repaid throw away their capital."
There I ran his quote thru the truthinator.
Flap
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Here are my predictions for everyone to see:
S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu.
"You can't build a house of cards on a shaking table." - Tony Johns
The January 2015 AMZN put at $130 (cost $4.25) will be a winner.
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Jtmo3
Posts: 679
Incept: 2009-07-31
Missouri
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Quote:Incidentally this means that all of you who in America who claim you're "owed" some entitlement, like Social Security Never voted for this. Never really had the opportunity. But I HAVE had money taken out of my checks for a lot of years. So YES I do feel "entitled" to this money returned. I'm sure not working to pay this so I can get shafted and someone else can collect on my labor. Herein lies the problem with the welfare state. I can vote for those who would change this and lose or they ended up lying. Yet I just have to suck it up and continue to pay? Screw the guy who's been paying for 40 years and see what happens. |
Asimov
Posts: 103976
Incept: 2007-08-26
East Tennessee Eastern Time
Online
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Asimov 2010-05-16 wrote..The ECB taking dog**** smeared paper as collateral for loans when they didn't even know the quality of the collateral they held LAST YEAR isn't really good for confidence. Asimov 2011-07-07 wrote..The ECB of course, was taking any piece of dog**** smeared paper as collateral long before greece originally blew up. Even prior to that they ADMITTED they didn't know what the value of the collateral they were taking was.
Can't you just imagine what kinda "quality" is on their books now? And now they're refusing to take it too? What a cluster****.
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It's justifiably immoral to deal morally with an immoral entity.
If you trade based on what other people say, you will lose money. Especially what I say. I won't be held responsible. Festina lente.
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Truthseeker
Posts: 8474
Incept: 2007-10-07
NorCal
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A whole bunch of folks who've been paying for 40 years are about to get screwed. You WILL get to see what it looks like. Buckle up.
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"...But people better realize that the worst-case scenario could actually happen.9/11 happened. This can happen. An economic 9/11, the likes of which we've never seen." Gerald Celente
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Flappingeagle
Posts: 1227
Incept: 2011-04-14
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SOrt of commenting on Marvin's post.
I would say that prior to 1980 we were trying to live beyond our means and have a government we could not afford. As a result everyone was having to pay higher and higher taxes which was choling off the economy. Beginning in 1980 we started "charging it" as a way to get now and pay later. Well, later seems to be getting nearer at an increasing rate.
I suspect that we peaked as a country in the 1960's due to two factors. Those being the afterglow from WWII wore off and, we started to import oil around 1971. Those two facotrs had a huge impact on our cash flow but yet we kept trying to raise our standard of living and just didn't have the economy to back it up.
Flap
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Here are my predictions for everyone to see:
S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu.
"You can't build a house of cards on a shaking table." - Tony Johns
The January 2015 AMZN put at $130 (cost $4.25) will be a winner.
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End_the_bubbles
Posts: 9519
Incept: 2009-03-25
The New 3rd World
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Genesis wrote..If you or I did this, that is, borrowed with the intent of never paying off the debt, we'd go to prison. It's a felony -- bank and securities fraud -- to do that. Does that apply to "serial refinancers"? There is a large swath of society who did just that. Borrowed against "equity" that was fictitious, then when they needed more money, did it again (and again, and again). If debtors prisons ever came back, 80% of our society could be locked up!
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In the long run even the most despotic governments with all their brutality and cruelty are no match for ideas. Eventually the ideology that has won the support of the majority will prevail and cut the ground from under the tyrant's feet and rise in rebellion to overthrow their masters.
Reason: Quote Genesis
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Marvinmartian
Posts: 750
Incept: 2011-03-16
Pasadena, CA
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FlappingEagle wrote..we started to import oil around 1971 I think thats part of it. Foreign oil used to be as cheap if not cheaper than domestic oil, until the Saudi's and others initiated the oil embargo of 73. Later on in the decade of the 70's we had the Iranian revolt against the Shah, and oil prices went up again. So I think it could be attributed to expensive imported oil. Maybe it was more a lost control over our resources and we haven't learned to adapt as well as we could. I look at our immense concrete freeways and wonder at how much energy we have expended on them, and how much energy is expended to keep the automobiles moving along. We had a transcontinental civilization before petroleum. We will have one after cheap petroleum is exhausted. It just wont look the same. The transition will be painful. |
Wakeupcall
Posts: 4233
Incept: 2009-06-08
Hampton Roads, VA
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Medicare will go first. Get rid of medicare & isn't social security fixable?
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“Nothing travels faster than the speed of light, with the possible exception of bad news, which obeys its own special laws.”
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Genesis
Posts: 130733
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Only if the rest of the government is cut by 50%
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Flappingeagle
Posts: 1227
Incept: 2011-04-14
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If we dropped Medicare would the price of healthcare drop or would the healthcare industry implode and who knows what heathcare would cost?
The problem is that EVERYTHING is so heavily financialized and leveraged that anything that goes has a chance of taking everything with it.
Flap
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Here are my predictions for everyone to see:
S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu.
"You can't build a house of cards on a shaking table." - Tony Johns
The January 2015 AMZN put at $130 (cost $4.25) will be a winner.
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Genesis
Posts: 130733
Incept: 2007-06-26
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The healthcare industry as we know it would implode.
But health care, in general, would be available. You'd have to pay for it, but it would be available.
A lot of the "intervention" type things we take for granted today would disappear, simply because without the ability to cost-shift them the percentage of people who could buy them would drop to an effective zero.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Shademan
Posts: 44
Incept: 2009-03-02
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The healthcare industry is really scary to think about. I work for a large healthcare company that owns over 100 hospitals. Now imagine if my company goes bankrupt. What happens? Shut the doors on hospitals??? Scary.
Similarly if the healthcare industry implodes, what happens to sick, hurt and dying people when the hospitals are out of business?
Riots?
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Lemonaid
Posts: 9879
Incept: 2008-01-20
Metro Detroit
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People will want to work... even unemployed doctors.
Healthcare in Mexico costs alot less.
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"There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved." Ludwig von Mises
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Morla
Posts: 815
Incept: 2009-11-09
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Stopping the collusion Karl recently pointed out between health care and health insurance would go a long way toward bringing costs down. If the middle class had the option of saving their own money for health care it would remove money from the insurance pool and thereby lower prices quite a bit.
As it stands the uninsured are gouged regardless of their financial status and thereby scared into the insurance system. Once in the system their money chases treatments and medicines they don't personally consume, leading to the steady march of rising prices we see now.
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Fear of govt IS the government.. Statism is a pack of unbacked threats; If govt gets out of control, ignore it and go about life as you see fit. Where's your crown, King Nothing?
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Flappingeagle
Posts: 1227
Incept: 2011-04-14
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Quote:Stopping the collusion Karl recently pointed out between health care and health insurance would go a long way toward bringing costs down. If the middle class had the option of saving their own money for health care it would remove money from the insurance pool and thereby lower prices quite a bit. You know just about everything in our economy today is a scam. Education, Fed Gov, State Gov, Local Gov, War on Drugs, the list just goes on forever but, the one thing that chaps my ass the most is Healthcare. Specifically how they can hold you up for your life savings if you don't have insurance and want to pay cash. The collusion that allows them to work out deals with insurance companies and the government to take pennies when if you have cash they can and do charge an arm and a leg. On top of that, the courts will back them up when they try to collect. The fact that paying cash costs way more than using a surrogate (govenment or ins co) to pay for you shows how F'd up the system is. Flap
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Here are my predictions for everyone to see:
S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu.
"You can't build a house of cards on a shaking table." - Tony Johns
The January 2015 AMZN put at $130 (cost $4.25) will be a winner.
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Marvinmartian
Posts: 750
Incept: 2011-03-16
Pasadena, CA
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Other problems with healthcare rarely mentioned:
1. It looks like they overbuilt hospitals like crazy. Lots of empty beds there. They have to charge insanely to try and recoup costs.
2. 5% of the patients account for 50% of the costs. I betcha those 5% are having those costs paid by medicare funded, medicaid funded or insurance funded, or by having the hospital eat the costs (indigent).
The first three funding methods are strictly limited in payment, and the last one, the hospital isn't getting paid. I wonder what percent of the payments those 5% actually make.
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Sean
Posts: 1766
Incept: 2009-04-21
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Quote:The health sick care industry as we know it would implode.
But health sick care, in general, would be available. You'd have to pay for it, but it would be available Fixed. For once and for all people we do not have a HEALTH care system in this country we have a SICK care system. My health care is taken care of by my lifestyle choices and advice/treatment/supplements from my Natural doc which I pay 100% out of my own pocket for! Karl is right - you had better get into a healthy lifestyle yesterday!
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* I think Ann Barnhardt is more and more right. God help us!
* Progressives / Marxists / Communists are many things, STUPID and IMPATIENT are not two of them.
* A hot civil war is coming.
* And people wonder why I prep!
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