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| On "Personhood" (Continued) in forum [Market-Ticker]
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Steelhead23
Posts: 2042
Incept: 2008-09-09
Portland OR
Online
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Your logic is impeccable. However, most people make decisions based on emotions - and the emotional appeal of the pledge, combining hero worship with moral certitude is strongly appealing to many.
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"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" —Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild Benjamin Bernanke For-profit commercial banks are a menace and should be eradicated
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Tom_joad
Posts: 40
Incept: 2008-07-15
East TN
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Quote:
The proposal of a "Personhood Amendment" is Satanic as it assigns the power of life from creation to death not to God or to each individual person with full vesting of authority once sentience has been reached but rather to Government.
Lucifer himself wrote that text and if you fail to see this you need to read it again until you do. There is nothing Christian in the premise and words of that proposal. It is spawn from the forked tongue of Satan himself.
I agree 100 percent. I often say the Government is out for more than just our money. Money is just a tool to get what they really want. This is just more evidence to that fact.
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Truthseeker
Posts: 8476
Incept: 2007-10-07
NorCal
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Absolutely incredible that you've had to sharpen the point to this degree. But your commitment to the underlying issue is admirable. Those with ears to hear will understand. The rest can look forward to the "New World Order" being prepared for them.
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"...But people better realize that the worst-case scenario could actually happen.9/11 happened. This can happen. An economic 9/11, the likes of which we've never seen." Gerald Celente
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Anti
Posts: 4292
Incept: 2007-10-09
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Quote:“the unalienable personhood of every American, from the moment of conception until natural death," The abortion issue aside, it seems like a stretch to take this to mean that capable individuals will be prevented from undertaking risky sports as in your examples. Admittedly seatbelt laws and similar things are an example of government's willingness to regulate anything it can get away with.
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Bagbalm
Posts: 4258
Incept: 2009-03-19
Just North of Detroit
Online
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I got it just fine. I said in the original thread: "What they are really saying is we reserve all life and death decisions to the state."
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Winstonsmith2009
Posts: 1060
Incept: 2009-08-05
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Temuchin43
Posts: 4
Incept: 2011-10-22
CA
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I think that's one glaring problem with the issue, but there's another one. Even if it were somehow possible to enforce abortion laws without contradicting the 4th amendment, any law prohibiting ANY kind of abortion would contradict the 13th as well.
Claiming (as neo-cons do) that abortion is only a question of "when does life begin?" is simply dishonest. The real question is, "can you sustain this life without enslaving the mother to service it?" - and the obvious answer is no. She is forced to eat pregnancy-safe foods, behave in pregnancy-safe ways, and carry a load she doesn't want to carry on her person at all times. If she chooses to fast for a month, the fetus dies; if she chooses to take large doses of vitamin C, the fetus dies; etc.
So the question is not about personhood; it is about choice between the personhood of two different people, where having both at the same time is physically impossible. The fact that there is no reasonable way to enforce abortion laws is just another argument for a choice that was already pretty obvious.
P.S. I think I got distracted by the abortion issue as well :)
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Genesis
Posts: 130744
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Quote:What constitutes personhood is really the only question that matters. Privacy rights and the 4th Amendment are subservient to personhood. If you believe a 2-day old infant is a person, then the privacy rights of the mother don't matter Sorry, you fail the critical reading test. Go back and read it again. This issue is NOT "simply" about abortion and it is not about "God" being in control either (although were it the latter it would be Constitutionally impermissible under the Establishment Clause anyway.) It is in fact about slavery from top to bottom, with it all devolving into slavery to the state.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Riceday
Posts: 502
Incept: 2009-10-30
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Keep sharpening. Some of us are dense, apparently. I cannot enter into a legal contract for illegal services. I cannot enter into a contract to kill another human. Murder for hire is illegal. If it is illegal for someone to kill me, it is illegal for me to pay someone to kill me. Quote:Now how do you stop someone from providing -- or having -- an abortion without violating the 4th Amendment? To be able to meet the 4th Amendment requirements you must find a predicate cause for that intrusion. The USSC in "Roe" found a potential for it beyond the first trimester, and a presumption in favor of it in the third. So all this amendment would do is add 3 months to the amount of time a tyrant could violate the 4th? After rereading the proposed amendment, I do not see anything that makes the jump to precrime. If a given medical procedure is illegal in the US, it is a crime to procure or provide said illegal medical procedure, is it not? Prosecuting someone for breaking such a law does not require usurpation of their 4th amendment rights. They still have due process. If your concern is in the one line: Quote:I pledge to the American people that I will defend all innocent human life I think that line is fairly vacuous as courts have consistently ruled that law enforcement does not have a responsibility to protect you. Also, that does not appear to be part of the Amendment.
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Genesis
Posts: 130744
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Original wrote..I stand with President Ronald Reagan in supporting “the unalienable personhood of every American, from the moment of conception until natural death," and with the Republican Party platform in affirming that I “support a human life amendment to the Constitution, and endorse legislation to make clear that the 14th Amendment protections apply to unborn children.”
Again, under this rubric you do not have the right to self-determination at all. You must proceed from conception to natural death and no intervention that changes that course, including by your own hand, is lawful.THAT is the goal and it is wrapped in the "abortion controversy" which you, along with many others, refuse to accept as not the predicate but rather the intentional deception used to sell you a Satanic device that voids ALL free will and self-determination in favor of The Government.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Xorbe
Posts: 161
Incept: 2009-06-23
Bay Area, CA
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It almost reads like it came from that internet buzzword bulls**t generator, but maybe that's just me.
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Genesis
Posts: 130744
Incept: 2007-06-26
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What does?
The Personhood thing? Go look at the original -- that's what the group asked the candidates to sign. I didn't write it -- they did.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Flappingeagle
Posts: 1227
Incept: 2011-04-14
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Karl you are right on the money as usual. The debate in this country is not about Left vs. Right, it is about Freedom vs. being controlled. The Left vs. Right debate is a distractor.
Flap
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Here are my predictions for everyone to see: S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu. "You can't build a house of cards on a shaking table." - Tony Johns The January 2015 AMZN put at $130 (cost $4.25) will be a winner.
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Tristan
Posts: 572
Incept: 2009-04-08
Spirit of '76
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Great first post, Temu. You cannot outlaw abortion without violating the "unalienable personhood" of the mother, even if an abortion violates the same of the child.
And leave it to Karl to uncover just how evil an apparently-simple and emotional statement can be. A fine craft, indeed.
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Themortgagedude
Posts: 8849
Incept: 2007-12-17
saint louis
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If I knew that a soul was present at the time of conception I'd argue with you. But since I don't I say that there are much bigger fish to fry so I'll leave this one alone.
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I'm already visualizing you with duct tape over your mouth.
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Bretondog
Posts: 43
Incept: 2011-09-01
Denver, Colorado
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Amazing Re-read the first Ticker (and as many Comments as I could stomach). Had not seriously considered these issues for almost 45 years. Yup...that long ago. Some things have changed though but not what Karl is clearly pointing out for us:
"What I or others believe in the context of marriage and my faith is not the predicate upon which Statute can be based. Indeed, if there is variance among faiths or even between those with faith and those without, The First Amendment precludes the preference of one over the other under Establishment.
America is not a theocracy."
What has changed in the intervening years is the AUDACITY of the Personhood proponents/supporters/self styled arbiters of truth to inflict their brand of beliefs on the rest of the Citizenry. You know what THAT is called, right? And some go so far as to claim they are the True Americans!
Thank you Karl D.
Breton
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Gator
Posts: 728
Incept: 2009-04-09
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Regarding the 4th amendment: Quote: The right of the people to be secure in their persons...
What trumps what here. Pro-abortion people argue that the right of the mother trumps the right to life of the fetus. Anti-abortion people argue the opposite. It seems the amendment attempts to clarify this by stating unborn children are, in fact, persons. Quote: Now how do you stop someone from providing -- or having -- an abortion without violating the 4th Amendment? To be able to meet the 4th Amendment requirements you must find a predicate cause for that intrusion. The USSC in "Roe" found a potential for it beyond the first trimester, and a presumption in favor of it in the third.
How do you stop anyone from doing anything in there own home? I can't murder or beat my wife in the privacy of my own home. Her rights trump my right to privacy. Similarly, the fetus has a right to life that trumps the mothers right to kill it privately. Furthermore, what should the gestational age of the fetus have anything to do with this? Why at a certain stage of development should the mother not be able to kill the fetus. Either she can do as she wishes with "her body" or she can't. Quote: The problem with attempting to move the "bright line" test that the Founders devised is that doing so has major and unacceptable consequences.
I'm not saying the amendment is perfect. But, frankly, I think preventing the wholesale slaughter of millions of unborn children might just be worth addressing. Quote: When people argue for the "Personhood Amendment" what they are actually saying is that the State has the right to effectively take custody of every fertilized egg from that point forward until natural death.
How so? I genuinely don't see it nearly as broad as this. It does forbid assisted suicide. You are correct about certain contraceptives. And it definitely needs to be clarified what precautions pregnant women need to adhere to. Applying the 14th amendment to unborn children doesn't, in general, change the governments jurisdiction over adults. What is added here that makes your list (being fat, smoking, etc) illegal. I think it's a stretch to go from stating a person is defined as "conception to natural death" to you can't eat Big Macs. But, I'm not a lawyer. Perhaps this should be worded better. Maybe it should just say from "Conception until death". I don't know. Quote: I argue as a matter of first principle and the Founders agreed that you own your person.
That's fine, but you don't own a person living inside of you. Not anymore than you own your child after it's born. Quote: The proposal of a "Personhood Amendment" is Satanic as it assigns the power of life from creation to death not to God or to each individual person with full vesting of authority once sentience has been reached but rather to Government.
What does sentience have to do with anything? This may be your, and others, arbitrary definition of when one is a person. But doesn't this occur in the womb? Shouldn't fetus', once they reach this milestone, be afforded proper protections? What about the women's right to privacy? Lastly, a picture of my son immediately after birth and at 11 weeks on ultrasound. How can it be ok to kill him in one case and not the other.

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Gantww
Posts: 542
Incept: 2011-04-22
Nashville, TN
Online
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One other thing that isn't addressed is what rights the father has in all of this. Does he have the right to demand that the woman terminate the pregnancy (or not)? If so, why? If not, why not? Does she have the right to make him pay child support for the next 18+ years? If so, why? Does she have protection against 9 months of "slavery", while he doesn't have protection against 18+ years of it? Or vice versa? I mean, if the child doesn't have personhood in the womb, including in the very earliest stages, then I see little reason that the man couldn't demand the right not to have to pay for the child, at any time before birth (since the woman could conceal the pregnancy until after the window stated above). I would also further suggest that if the woman having the baby were going to go on government services, that such action would give the people the right to demand an abortion (or to at least demand the right not to pay for the kid).
I don't think there's a way we can slice this thing where it doesn't become an absolute mess. This is one of those places where there concept of true total freedom in one sense would seem to become the contradiction of freedom for someone else, even if one disregards the fetus completely in the calculation. And that would seem to be the case for both sides.
As a male, does this understanding of constitutional law recognize my reproductive rights as well? Because they are not recognized under current law.
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Mannfm11
Posts: 3544
Incept: 2009-02-28
DFW, Tx
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http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/doc.... We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness At the time the Bill of Rights was being discussed, some people believed that it would not be a good idea to add a bill of rights because they thought it would imply that any rights not mentioned were not guaranteed. In order to address this concern, James Madison introduced an amendment that would specifically say that any rights not specifically mentioned in the Constitution were still protected. So the Ninth Amendment has only one part: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people http://oll.libertyfund.org/index.php?opt....The above link is a link to the works of Emer De Vattel, The Law of Nations, Or, Principles of the Law of Nature, Applied to the Conduct and Affairs of Nations and Sovereigns, with Three Early Essays on the Origin and Nature of Natural Law and on Luxury (LF ed.) [1797] In this book, De Vattel describes the perfect and imperfect rights associated with man. Much of what was used in the Constitution was derived out of this book. The term person in law implies a legal fiction, but in the Constitution, I believe it means in ones dealings. I suspect that the framers meant for very little to be against the law and thus none of the governments business. A lot of these guys were smugglers.
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The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.---John Kenneth Galbraith
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Genesis
Posts: 130744
Incept: 2007-06-26
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I am entitled to hold the drafter of an Amendment or Statute to the actual language they use, because the courts WILL do exactly that.
The black letter of their proposal:
1. Makes the most-common used birth control method AND one of the next-most-common, both of them the only means with reasonably-certain effectiveness, illegal. It therefore denies couples all effective means of family planning irrespective of their marital status. Ironically it also bars the use of artificial means to attempt to create more births where any possibility of the intentional destruction of an embryo could occur; that is, where any fertilized egg would be discarded or destroyed due to intentional acts of omission or commission.
2. It declares that any interference with the process of life from the merging of the egg and sperm to natural death is prohibited. It does not specify that only others may not interfere and it leaves no balance-of-harms test. Literally any act that leads to a less-than-natural end-of-life terminal point could be, and under the black letter of this amendment would be, prohibited.
If the intent of this amendment was ONLY to prohibit abortion then that would have been simple to do. "It is the public policy of The United States that abortion, as a matter of law, is prohibited." There -- done, one sentence.
But that's not what they did, or what they asked politicians to sign, or what politicians DID sign.
Instead what they promised to do was TAKE authority for life from the merger of sperm and egg to natural death and decree that nobody -- not even the person in question -- has the right to interfere with that process.
This was not "sloppy", it was intentional.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Gator
Posts: 728
Incept: 2009-04-09
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I do agree with you there. I think abortion should be handled specifically. Not in the roundabout way with other issues attached.
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Fuats
Posts: 15
Incept: 2008-12-05
Boise
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The power of the state to enforce laws ends at taking the life of the violator. (Engage in prohibited behavior, arrest attempt made, arrest resisted as it is morally wrong, violator is murdered by the state for resisting.) Therefore, if you choose to smoke, or skydive, or ride motorcycles, and it's considered dangerous to you, the state can use its monopoly on "legal" initiation of violence to prevent it.
Boiled down: "Don't do things that can kill you, or we'll...kill you"?
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Wootendw
Posts: 38
Incept: 2010-01-28
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The fundamental fact of all animal life and especially of human life is the quality of consciousness - a human being does not merely exist; he KNOWS he exists. While any 'living' tissue is said to be alive in the biological sense, in the moral sense, only the mind is alive and only the mind has rights. My hand is alive in the biological sense but it has no rights because it does not know it exists. It is part of my body and is therefore my property. To injure my hand would violate MY rights but not my hand's.
The mind of a person is the person and it is that which has rights.
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Genesis
Posts: 130744
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Yes, they really are that stupid.
You do know that it's against the law to commit suicide in most jurisdictions, yes? "Gee, let's prosecute this corpse!"
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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