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| Are You Smarter Than The Founders? (Personhood) in forum [Market-Ticker]
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Wis/min
Posts: 5361
Incept: 2009-08-14
On the border
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This has been laid down as a marker by the militant pro life crowd.
As an Evangelical pro life Christian I find this this pledge more than little problematic.
Karl has clearly elucidated the far reaching effects of this type of pledge.
Shame on those who authored this for not thinking all the way through it before browbeating politicians to sign it.
This issue should have remained a states rights issue. Period.
The SCOTUS inserted themselves into this and we have paid a price ever since.
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Weezie
Posts: 6065
Incept: 2008-05-19
Caution: Congress at Work
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I dunno about it being a "States' Right" as I should have unequivocable control over my person. (Life, liberty and all that...)
It used to be required in some states that, to get birth control, women had to prove they were married and have permission from their husbands. Well, we can go back to the good ole days provided that Viagra can only be given to married men, with their wives' permission...
Better yet, leave adults the **** (pun intended) alone.
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The election is not a way to have a voice in government, but rather an impotent declaration if we prefer ketchup or mustard on our **** sandwich.
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Bagbalm
Posts: 4251
Incept: 2009-03-19
Just North of Detroit
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This is self righteous hypocrisy. What they are really saying is we reserve all life and death decisions to the state. The state is just a cloak that masks which individuals make those decisions, but just like all state actions some bureaucrat orders the action. It is like the state executioner - his identity is hidden, but make no mistake he exists, and his actions are always self serving. The more so when there is no public identity and responsibility. I can always hope that the people who create these monsters will end up under the hand of their own Golem at the end, screaming like a little girl that their death code doesn't apply to THEM.
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Riceday
Posts: 502
Incept: 2009-10-30
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I do not think it is fair to say that because citizenship vests at birth, therefore unalienable rights or "personhood" vests at birth. I think that is a stretch.
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Genesis
Posts: 130679
Incept: 2007-06-26
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That was not the point.
The Constitution is silent on the issue of unalienable rights. It speaks only to where one gains the protection of the Constitution and the laws of the United States, nothing more.
How about speaking to the issue instead of trying to play a conflation game?
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Wis/min
Posts: 5361
Incept: 2009-08-14
On the border
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It is better left in the hands of the states as the constitution mandates. 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States Quote:The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. You do not have to live there if you don't accept that states laws.
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Tz
Posts: 785
Incept: 2007-09-18
varies
Banned
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I think you are severely overstating things. Drugs are dangerous including alcohol, and DWI is overdone. You can injure others while on drugs, but the drug war is not the way to handle it. But you should go back and read Humanae Vitae - Pope Paul VI predicted the pornography and use of each other as sex objects instead of treating them as human beings. That is what we have. Somehow it seems there is now a right to recreational sex which trumps everything else. Pregnancy interferes with it so we can kill the baby. I'm not sure if it is for principle or pragmatism. Only that it can block speech, religion, or any other constitutional right. We have no 4th amendment left with the Patriot act, but the eminations and penumbras remain, chesire cat like - from Griswold v. Connecticut. But nothing else. And we all have the right to define our own reality from Casey. If there is no absolute right to recreational sex, then all the above fall into prudential judgment. A dangerous IUD that would cause infection and sterility in a large percentage of women, but would be more effective at preventing implantation would be acceptable (and the women would take on the risk). Similarly with the birth control pills. If you want an extended argument on why it is evil (but not criminal), you can find it at: http://www.catholiceducation.org/article....I would also note at the time of the founding fathers, abortion and contraceptives were banned. Only after the civil war did the eugenics and population control movements change this (from things like Thomas Malthas' book) Euthanasia is basically hiring an assassin, not a suicide. If someone wants to kill THEMSELVES I can't stop them. If they want a doctor - or anyone else - to kill them it is a very different thing. In the Netherlands, doctors kill troublesome patients. It would solve the Medicare problem. Have a doctor say the person is senile, and wouldn't want to live if they are senile (or can't get a hip replacement), and then let them dehydrate or starve to death, oh, but that is too slow, so we will just give them a lethal injection. "Forced Exit" documents cases in the USA already. The constitution can define personhood, and ought to define it from the moment of conception. The States can then use their judgment on when to step in to defend life. Guns kill, but that is not the intent so the second amendment says there is a right and there should be no prior restraint or preemption. Prostitution violates the marriage contract, but they usually leave a "red light" district alone. There are public intoxication laws, but they aren't uniformly enforced. I think contraception would be like this - and I can't think of where it breaches the peace or creates a public nuisance. However if you make yourself sterile from rec sex, you shouldn't have IVF or the rest.
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"I am become debt, destroyer of worlds"
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Snowmizuh
Posts: 1351
Incept: 2009-03-18
Alabama
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Quote:The Birth Control Pill would be rendered felonious. Wouldn't one have to have evidence of a bona fide destroyed unborn person (in this case a fertilized egg perhaps in the blastocyst stage) in order to bring suit against someone? Can you prosecute someone for a felony based just on the statistical probability that a certain behavior will result in wrongful death or murder? If so, shouldn't one now be able to sue smokers as it can be shown that second-hand smoke statistically increases the probability of lung-cancer?
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Snowmizuh
Posts: 1351
Incept: 2009-03-18
Alabama
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Furthermore, even if you were able to produce a bona fide destroyed unborn person (which seems nigh impossible), how do you prove the specific death of this unborn person was due to the uterine wall having more mucus on a specific date as a result of taking progesterone vs. the result of a natural miscarriage? It seems the defense can always claim 'act of God'--e.g. how could you prove that if there were say 20% less mucus on the uterine wall then the egg would have successfully implanted? It's absurd!
There's a 'if it doesn't fit you must acquit' joke in there somewhere.
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Riceday
Posts: 502
Incept: 2009-10-30
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The whole "endowed by our Creator" thing does not sound silent to me. But leaving that aside...
I understand your point that this pledge, if enacted into law could be used to further a police state. I doubt it would ever be enacted. Consider that a large swath of this country is pleading for our government to return to some respect for basic morality rather than actively supporting every fringe aspect of society that was previously spoken of only in hushed tones. I think this pledge is just a symptom of that given that government is already engaging in eugenics through $300 million+ taxpayer funding of Planned Parenthood in payment for 300,000+ abortions.
At the same time, many of the concerns you list above can just as easily be applied to the parent:child relationship anyway. Is spanking a felony, leaving your child unbuckled in the car, etc.? The ever-applicable felony already exists no matter where you draw the line. The application and enforcement of any law must be done within REASON - which we have abandoned as a society.
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Genesis
Posts: 130679
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Quote:But you should go back and read Humanae Vitae - Pope Paul VI predicted the pornography and use of each other as sex objects instead of treating them as human beings. That is what we have.
Somehow it seems there is now a right to recreational sex which trumps everything else. Nonsense. Married couples use birth control as a means of limiting the size of their families all the time. Incidentally, if you want to start quoting Catholic stuff at me you better be careful, as I am VERY aware of the theology and teachings of the Church, having gone through RCIA as an adult in the 1990s and having made quite a study of it, as this was one of the areas that gave me great concern. A Catholic marriage, for example, is VOID (and can be declared null -- not ANNULLED, declared null -- as in "never happened") if at the time of the original marriage contract either party intended to withhold sexual congress for the benefit of children.Thus, if EITHER PARTY intended, at the time of the marriage, to use any form of birth control at any time and under any circumstance, including denial of sex when desired by either partner (yes, including the so-called "rhythm method") the marriage is VOID!It does not matter what the couple decides to do later on -- the decision point is what your intend at the time of the marriage. That's the beginning and end of it; if you INTEND to limit the number of children you have via any means at the time of contracting for that marriage as a matter of canon in the eyes of the Church the marriage never happened. That is what the actual theology of the Catholic church IS. This is NOT commonly put forward as a "demand" of the Congregation and it may remain unenforced but that doesn't change the Canon. It is what it is. Quote:Wouldn't one have to have evidence of a bona fide destroyed unborn person (in this case a fertilized egg perhaps in the blastocyst stage) in order to bring suit against someone? No. The method of action of these drugs and devices includes the intentional destruction of the environment in the uterus required for a fertilized egg to implant. This is not speculative; it is in fact the design of the drug or device to do so and absent that design the drug or device would not function as intended.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Swrichmond
Posts: 327
Incept: 2009-02-12
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Quote:As such if you're a fertile woman you cannot drink. At all. To attempt to inject some perhaps unwelcome humor into this thread, if women can't drink most of them won't ever get pregnant anyway...
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Banditfist
Posts: 722
Incept: 2007-09-20
Huntsville, Alabama
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I watched my father HAVE to suffer the dying process via cancer. As soon as he stopped responding to chemo, he quit everything except pain medicine. Watching a man that was born and raised on a farm be confined to a 10' X 20' room with no desire to even walk 20 feet to see the sunshine changed my opinion on life.
We treat our dogs better than we do our people. Because a moral set of people beleive one thing, we sentence everyone to have to suffer the dying process.
Just one point KD, it is an fertilized egg that secretes a hormone that allows it to attach itself to the uterian wall. The pill weakens the wall, thus denying it the ability to attach.
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"Are you sure you can't remember?" "I'm sure I can't remember" ~ Ben Bernake 25 Jun 2009
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Genesis
Posts: 130679
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Correct Band - the pill, along with the IUD, both interfere with what is otherwise a normal hormonal response in the body. The Pill does so through chemistry, the IUD either does so through a foreign-object response (physical intrusion causing the body to mount what is effectively a rejection response) or through chemistry (for drug-infused IUDs)
The goal of The Pill is multi-faceted -- it also thickens the cervical mucosa and attempts to prevent the passage of sperm, but this is not always effective. The IUD's method of action, through the rejection response, also attempts to destroy the sperm before they can reach the egg. However, both birth control methods in addition deny implantation, and as such both would be barred as a matter of federal law were this "Personhood" thing come to pass.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Tz
Posts: 785
Incept: 2007-09-18
varies
Banned
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RCIA has been notorious for being heretical. Quote the catechism. I'm a Catholic Apologist so I've probably studied more of the actual teaching and in more depth and on more subjects. The Catechism is official teaching. As is Humanae Vitae. You are correct about such decisions before entering into a marriage makes it a nullity, however the teaching is not precisely as you describe. Natural Family Planning (NaPro) is acceptable, but ARTIFICIAL contraception is not. And NFP properly done is as or more effective. Mother Theresa's group teaches it to Catholics, Muslims, and Hindus in India where they can't afford Big Pharma's solutions. You can quote from a dissenting supreme court opinion or from the constitution and concurrences. Annulments are a complex area of canon law, but the teaching of the Catechism and encyclicals (I'd all JP2's theology of the body) are clear. Unless you are more Catholic than the Pope, Magisterium, and the Vatican, this is the official teaching: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_I....Under the 6th commandment http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__....Quote: 2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, "every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil.
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_v....Quote: Recourse to Infertile Periods
16. Now as We noted earlier (no. 3), some people today raise the objection against this particular doctrine of the Church concerning the moral laws governing marriage, that human intelligence has both the right and responsibility to control those forces of irrational nature which come within its ambit and to direct them toward ends beneficial to man. Others ask on the same point whether it is not reasonable in so many cases to use artificial birth control if by so doing the harmony and peace of a family are better served and more suitable conditions are provided for the education of children already born. To this question We must give a clear reply. The Church is the first to praise and commend the application of human intelligence to an activity in which a rational creature such as man is so closely associated with his Creator. But she affirms that this must be done within the limits of the order of reality established by God.
If therefore there are well-grounded reasons for spacing births, arising from the physical or psychological condition of husband or wife, or from external circumstances, the Church teaches that married people may then take advantage of the natural cycles immanent in the reproductive system and engage in marital intercourse only during those times that are infertile, thus controlling birth in a way which does not in the least offend the moral principles which We have just explained. (20)
Neither the Church nor her doctrine is inconsistent when she considers it lawful for married people to take advantage of the infertile period but condemns as always unlawful the use of means which directly prevent conception, even when the reasons given for the later practice may appear to be upright and serious. In reality, these two cases are completely different. In the former the married couple rightly use a faculty provided them by nature. In the later they obstruct the natural development of the generative process. It cannot be denied that in each case the married couple, for acceptable reasons, are both perfectly clear in their intention to avoid children and wish to make sure that none will result. But it is equally true that it is exclusively in the former case that husband and wife are ready to abstain from intercourse during the fertile period as often as for reasonable motives the birth of another child is not desirable. And when the infertile period recurs, they use their married intimacy to express their mutual love and safeguard their fidelity toward one another. In doing this they certainly give proof of a true and authentic love.
There is a difference between being prudent and using nature to space children and intentionally never wanting any child ever. If you don't want the first child yet, don't get married. A second child can be spaced by natural breastfeeding, or NFP if the child is older, but the couple is still open to life. Quote: Faithfulness to God's Design
13. Men rightly observe that a conjugal act imposed on one's partner without regard to his or her condition or personal and reasonable wishes in the matter, is no true act of love, and therefore offends the moral order in its particular application to the intimate relationship of husband and wife. If they further reflect, they must also recognize that an act of mutual love which impairs the capacity to transmit life which God the Creator, through specific laws, has built into it, frustrates His design which constitutes the norm of marriage, and contradicts the will of the Author of life. Hence to use this divine gift while depriving it, even if only partially, of its meaning and purpose, is equally repugnant to the nature of man and of woman, and is consequently in opposition to the plan of God and His holy will. But to experience the gift of married love while respecting the laws of conception is to acknowledge that one is not the master of the sources of life but rather the minister of the design established by the Creator.
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"I am become debt, destroyer of worlds"
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Riceday
Posts: 502
Incept: 2009-10-30
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The "Personhood" thing will not come to pass because while it could be used consistent with the expanding police state meme, it undercuts the population control movement. Population control has popular support under the guise of being "unburdened" by the cost of children.
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Banditfist
Posts: 722
Incept: 2007-09-20
Huntsville, Alabama
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The flip side of NFP is that it can be used inversely to get pregnant. That maybe the loophole that makes available for the Catholic Church to promote its use.
(I did the NFP with the ex-wife. She was the cradle Catholic, and did not beleive in divorce until she decided that she didn't want kids and filed for divorce. I have other problems with the Church so she is not getting an annulment. I also went through RCIA)
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"Are you sure you can't remember?" "I'm sure I can't remember" ~ Ben Bernake 25 Jun 2009
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Captainkidd
Posts: 594
Incept: 2010-05-25
Pasadena, Texas
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Wis/Min wroter: Quote: Shame on those who authored this for not thinking all the way through it before browbeating politicians to sign it. Is it “not well though through?” Or, is it purposefully vague and open for interpretation for later manipulation of implementation and enforcement? Sadly, we live in a time when we have to ask this question, and when most of our laws and statutes are written in this manner so that there is no clear intent and no plain, undeniable meaning, forcing interpretation that can later be changed to fit the needs of whatever the agenda becomes. Snowmizuh wrote: Quote: Wouldn't one have to have evidence of a bona fide destroyed unborn person (in this case a fertilized egg perhaps in the blastocyst stage) in order to bring suit against someone? Can you prosecute someone for a felony based just on the statistical probability that a certain behavior will result in wrongful death or murder? (Emphasis mine) It’s done every day in DWI courts, Redlight CAMs, Seatbelt Laws, Child Restraint Laws, Helmet Laws, and speed limits isn’t it? And: Quote:If so, shouldn't one now be able to sue smokers as it can be shown that second-hand smoke statistically increases the probability of lung-cancer? With all the restictions on where and when people can smoke, most second hand exposure is extremely temporary, at least from indivdual sources. Assuming that the cancer can be proven to have, or at least reasonably expected to have, resulted from second hand smoke, the determination of whose second hand smoke becomes the question. It would be difficult to sue every person that the victim walked by over his lifetime who was smoking, and if it was from the spouse (where long term second hand smoke could be reasonably suspected) the suit would be pointless anyway, would it not? *************************************************
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A lawyer with a briefcase can steal more than a thousand men with guns. --Mario Puzo
It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning. -- Henry Ford
Reason: Attempted clarification of my statements.
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Mannfm11
Posts: 3535
Incept: 2009-02-28
DFW, Tx
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I think this quote is fantastic. It brings to light something I haven't ever quite caught the meaning of until I read this. More, even when the Congress or Supreme Court acts with apparent authority to define words (and thus would not seem to require your personal consent) under certain circumstances, their apparent authority can be challenged. If their authority is missing, then the definition cannot be imposed but instead requires your consent. For example, the 9th Amendment to The Constitution of the United States declares, “The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage other retained by the people.” The 9th Amendment is the doorway back to the “Declaration of Independence” that declares that, “all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights”. Thus, the 9th Amendment’s protection for rights not expressly “enumerated” in the Constitution opens the door for me to claim the God-given, unalienable Rights first declared in the “Declaration”. But. Who is defined by the 9th Amendment as being entitled to claim those unenumerated rights? The “people”. (“The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage other retained by the people.”) If you appear in court in the capacity of a “citizen,” “inhabitant,” “individual,” “resident,” “person” or any one of a score of other descriptions, your claim of God-given, unalienable Rights might be ignored. Court is a game of words much like Mother May I or Simon Says. If you don’t say the exactly right word at the right time, you may lose. • Insofar as the 9th Amendment opens the door for me to claim my God-given, unalienable Rights, it also opens the door to challenge the authority of Congress or the Supreme Court to define any word in a way that would “deny or disparage” any of my unenumerated rights http://adask.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/de....There is no telling what the government might do with anything, especially when it comes to smoking. Yet the entire country is disposing of toxic waste in their water supply under the guise of good dental health. Every woman in America was sucking down cigarettes in the 1950's and 1960's. Seems they had a hell of a lot of live births and it appears maybe fewer complications than today. As far as abortion goes, I think there is as much a double standard against women as there are against men in this case. There are some things that need to be looked at differently than choice and all the modern nonsense that human life revolves around today. The natural state of man is to reproduce and whatever pleasure associated with sex is about reproducing and not about having fun. Of course there is not much done in the realm of nature any more, with outfits like Monsanto making products that are designed to destroy the gene pool of food stock around the world and force extortion on farmers. Governments around the world have become way too controlling. There appears to be a war on the people by governments and bankers. I do know that Ron Paul represents the best option we have to reverse that trend. Regardless of what Paul believes, I don't believe abortion rights or non rights would be a part of his program on a national basis. Government is forcing toxic waste on us and our children. Suicide is illegal, but I haven't heard of anyone who actually did it going to jail. Our kids are force fed drugs when the teachers decide there is something wrong with them. Has it ever been looked into that the teachers themselves might be so screwed up they produce some of these class room reactions? There is some solid study into the reaction of the mind of children on confusing forms of communication. I think I agree with Karl in that settling the abortion game, which for the time being has already been settled, is anywhere near the top of the spectrum of what we should be pushing on a national basis. I do believe that if governments have the power to throw people in prison for driving drunk when they have never injured anyone probably opens the door for them doing a lot of things, including regulating the birth rights of the population. I have seen statistics that show the most endangered by drunk drivers is the driver himself, as a very large number of traffic deaths in cities are intoxicated. There is a huge spread between negligent homecide and negligent might be homecide or suicide. Any of you go to Adasks site, you will find what many call tinfoil ideas. I have known of Al for a long time and he has never been a promoter of these ideas, but has been concerned mainly with how the common man gets his day in court. Much of the stuff the tinfoil theorists bring up revolves around how the government controls the population. Mish had a post last night about Iran and how the investigators have never found them to have an atomic program. Seems we have another bogeyman under the bed to enforce more anti-terror laws on the population so the bankers can collect forever.
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The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.---John Kenneth Galbraith
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Blutach
Posts: 21
Incept: 2011-12-29
Oak Brook, IL
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I hate my life, am clinically depressed and have been thinking a lot lately about taking my own life. Very good arguments Gen. You hit it out of the park on this one!
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Bill Still 2012!
Reason: spelling
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Joe-bob
Posts: 2619
Incept: 2007-09-18
Banned
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Quote:Somehow it seems there is now a right to recreational sex which trumps everything else Yeah gosh darn it. Suddenly - as of at least 150,000 BC, with the advent of concealed ovulation, humans have been having sex for fun... stop it!!! As far back as you care to go in written record, people have been using birth control, surely pre-history as well. You have sex & don't want a child for whatever reason, break out the rootwort. You can find historical writings from Romans lamenting the widespread use of birth control, so the anti-birth control movement also predates christianity. We lose about 35,000 people per year in traffic. Anyone concerned about the sanctity of human life ought to be crusading for a maximum 55mph national speed limit and getting people into walkable neighborhoods so they have the option of avoiding driving. We don't do that though do we? Plenty of stuff like that where people are dying in large numbers year after year. In practice, human life is cheap and we just have a baby fetish here in America. We doth protest too much and all that. Think of the children!
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Jstanley01
Posts: 8176
Incept: 2008-07-30
San Antonio, Texas
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As far the Pope et. al. and their teachings on marriage and reproduction, I always remember what mio nonno vecchio used to say, "You no play-a da game, you no make-a da rules."
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You can't cheat an honest man. ~P.T. Barnum
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Guydaley
Posts: 15320
Incept: 2007-07-10
Wyoming only ATM
Banned
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I stopped reading the pledge after the first paragraph: Quote:I __________________ proclaim that every human being is created in the image and likeness of God, and is endowed by our Creator with the unalienable right to life. Its just this type of horse**** that keeps shoving the religious freaks in front of us as candidates, like Bachmann, etc. I don't want a religious freak as my representative. I want someone that understands financial management. Never, EVER do I want anybody in office that claims God as an answer to any public problem. I hope the people on the TF understand the bigger picture on this. These heapin' helpings of religion is used as a cover. I'll give an outstanding analogy. Lets say you are a member of a titanic religious organization that caters to your soul and then the big cheese is caught diverting massive funds for his personal benefit plus a little bit of prostitution on the side. This prick that hides behind his faith betrayed your trust because people are more than willing to extend trust to the hyper religious. Its a con that continues to persist in our society, in our culture and people refuse to learn from it. Everybody should run from the religious freaks because they WILL be stabbing you in the back. They might even incorporate God as to their reasons. And if they get caught well there is always forgiveness too.
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Its called creeping TEOTWAWKI. Just because it doesn't happen all at once doesn't mean it isn't happening.
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Snowmizuh
Posts: 1351
Incept: 2009-03-18
Alabama
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A lot depends on the specific definition of when life begins. It's not a simple as one would think. Which of the following is it? At what point can one say 'this is a person'?
a) The moment the sperm enters the ovum. b) The moment the male and female pronuclei fuse (zygote formation). [Arguably, there is a complete, unique set of DNA at this point. Is the DNA immutable or does it keep changing through the next steps?] c) The moment of first division of the zygote (cleavage). d) The moment of the morula forms. e) The moment the blastocyst stage is reached. f) The moment the blastocyst implants in the uterus. g) The moment of formation of the egg sack. h) The moment of formation of the embryonic disk. i) The moment of the appearance of the primitive streak. j) The moment the is a clear amniotic sac structure k) The moment the flat trilaminar embryonic disc folds into a cylindric form--now there is an embryo.
Also, this list is not exhaustive--there are multiple possible 'milestones' in between all of these.
If one sets the threshold for personhood at the stage where there is an embryo happily implanted in the uterine wall, then the concerns about use of birth control becoming felonious go away.
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