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End_the_bubbles
Posts: 9523
Incept: 2009-03-25
The New 3rd World
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Quote:You might have a heart attack this evening or you might simply have promised the output of more than tomorrow's hours that you intend to expend on the necessities of life tomorrow Or, you might just DEFAULT! That's the ultimate future for most "credit"........
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In the long run even the most despotic governments with all their brutality and cruelty are no match for ideas. Eventually the ideology that has won the support of the majority will prevail and cut the ground from under the tyrant's feet and rise in rebellion to overthrow their masters.
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Winstonsmith2009
Posts: 1060
Incept: 2009-08-05
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First heard about this on CNBS World late last night: British Government To Accept Plan To Split UK Bank's Investment And Retail Operations http://www.businessinsider.com/uk-banks-...."Britain's government is expected to accept a proposal from the Independent Commission on Banking that will require U.K. banks to separate their investment and commercial operations by mid-2015, the Financial Times reported." Gosh, I guess you could call that re-learning the lessons of the Great Depression? The date should be moved up, though, because the SIGTHTF long before that.
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Obseedian
Posts: 11872
Incept: 2007-07-26
BBRY Central
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Quote:Basel's rules do not, because they declare that certain debt -- specifically, sovereign debt, has no risk (that is, it has a "risk weighting" of zero.) Even after what happened in Greece and Iceland and what's about to happen in the rest of the PIG****? 
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Popothebright
Posts: 2756
Incept: 2008-05-16
Bangkok
Banned
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Quote: In truth all lending to a sovereign government is unsecured and thus should be 100% weighted -- there's no collateral you can seize and sell if the government doesn't pay.
Karl -- This is something I keep wondering about. Is there any precedence for governments giving up actual physical state-owned assets? It would seem to me that the notion that governments have no assets beyond liquid capital is ultimately false. Should nations be able to say, "we're not liquid, therefore we can't pay?" -- or should they be forced to sell national assets? If an corporation declares bankruptcy -- my understanding is that all assets are 'on the table' in terms of potential collateral. Should nations be able to declare that wealth is restricted to current liquid assets? The reason I'm asking is that everyone seems to pretend that sovereign defaults are "non-recourse". But that seems extremely strange given the fact that nations are ultimately massive stores of wealth -- even if said wealth isn't liquid.
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In America the choice of political party is little more than a choice of which corrupt management team implements the corporate agenda.
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Donlevit
Posts: 33
Incept: 2011-08-18
sugar land, tx
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Government, apparently, is able to issue bonds on the strength of their taxing power. Well, spending 43 cents (why is the cents sign not on the keyboard) more than every dollar taken in, says very little about that power. I liken Government's ability to pay to that of the goodwill of a business. But, for a business being able to borrow, based on 143% of its goodwill, is a bit ludicrous. Don Levit
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Genesis
Posts: 130795
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Quote:Karl -- This is something I keep wondering about. Is there any precedence for governments giving up actual physical state-owned assets? It would seem to me that the notion that governments have no assets beyond liquid capital is ultimately false. Should nations be able to say, "we're not liquid, therefore we can't pay?" -- or should they be forced to sell national assets?
Where does this sort of insanity come from? Seriously -- where did you dream it up? This has NEVER in the history of sovereign debt been the case. NEVER. So where did this come from? Please be succinct, because I'm REALLY tired of insane theories thrown out that have no basis in historical fact (or any other sort of fact or argument for that matter either.) I'm sorry but this sort of nuttiness leads me to question the wisdom of leaving this forum online.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Fraudster
Posts: 4176
Incept: 2011-05-10
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Even so KD, the idea is a ridiculous one since public "assets" have less value than the debt. Ignoring all other considerations.
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"Let China sleep, for when she wakes, she will shake the world." - Napoleon Bonaparte
"Circulation ceases first at the outer edges [Europe and Japan]. It will take a while yet for the decay to reach the heart [America]." - Foundation & Empire by Isaac Asimov
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Jeannedarc
Posts: 34
Incept: 2010-06-26
Orleans
Banned
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Wouldn't the Louisiana Purchase be an example of a country selling off its "property"? Or Seward's Folly?
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Genesis
Posts: 130795
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Jeanne, there's a difference between SELLING something and having collateral seized.
Does conflating the two pass as intellectual content these days?
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Tz
Posts: 785
Incept: 2007-09-18
varies
Banned
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The problem is also the valuation and liquidity of the assets backing the "unsecured" lending. Like mortgages on houses that never go down and can always be flipped.
Or nonfungible stored gold? Or segregated accounts?
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"I am become debt, destroyer of worlds"
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Quick
Posts: 112
Incept: 2008-03-08
southeast
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Instead of ---- " -- or should they be forced to sell national assets?
Think ---- " WWIII "
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Genesis
Posts: 130795
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Well yes Tz, which is why you still have a reserve ratio (e.g. the so-called 6% one we have now) and a requirement for independent valuations and audits. But this is allegedly already there -- if it's enforced under criminal penalty for violations and willful deceptions along with a one dollar of capital standard the problem goes away.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Jeannedarc
Posts: 34
Incept: 2010-06-26
Orleans
Banned
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Non! Of course they aren't the same, I was thinking along the lines of assets that could be sold off. Seizure is an entirely different matter, though who knows what could be pulled off in some lawyer-filled BIS meeting.
I think I get what you are saying about the monetary situation, credit = ghost money... all those merry Christmases past are rattling their chains something fierce now, huh?
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Jstanley01
Posts: 8182
Incept: 2008-07-30
San Antonio, Texas
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Sounds to me like a continuation of the same grift that Paulson and Bernanke ran when they threatened Congress with tanks in the streets if TARP wasn't passed. Alleging that if the banksters were to go broke the whole country would crater. Only now they've upped the ante.
Then the banksters were holding bogus paper of their own making, now they're holding bogus paper, issued in the name of the various sovereigns in order to cover their pigman asses. But the con-game is the same. The squealing that if, say, Greece defaults there will be no more Greece. Which is self-evident bull****.
In case of default, Greece and the Greek people and the productive potential of their economy will still exist. The same applies to the United States and everyone else. The only ones who will be extinguished by a reset are the banksters and their politico pals.
And don't let anybody kid you. To avoid that fate the banksters will egg those politicos to roll tanks and do whatever else is needed for them to continue to extract their pound of flesh from their respective citizenries.
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You can't cheat an honest man. ~P.T. Barnum
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Genesis
Posts: 130795
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Credit is one of two things:
1. Liquification of an existing hard asset (e.g. a house, a building, a machine, corn in a ship headed across an ocean, a container full of toys, etc.)
2. A promise to labor tomorrow.
#1 is not "money creating" as it is self-liquidating and there is no speculation behind it. You either pay or the collateral is seized and sold. In either case the credit self-liquidates. In addition the encumbrance of the asset means you're not "creating" anything -- you're locking up something of equivalent value for the liquidity. If you think of it in terms of a balance sheet the asset is withdrawn from your balance sheet (it's pledged) at the same time the cash comes in. You trade one for the other. The bank also has the same situation -- should they need the cash they gave you immediately for some reason they can sell the paper they're holding since it has a hard asset associated with it.
#2 is a different matter. That is NOT inherently self-liquidating. It might liquidate but it also might not, but if it does it only does so against future production. In addition since there is no asset pledged against it there is no balance in the balance sheet -- it is exactly identical in economic effect to "printing money" unbacked, because it increases the quantity across the entirety of the asset base (liquid and otherwise) in the economy. It is therefore explicitly inflationary and when performed by other than a sovereign is also effectively counterfeiting -- or a nsked short, if you prefer that vernacular.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Dazedncornfused
Posts: 313
Incept: 2010-10-13
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>Is there any precedence for governments giving up actual physical state-owned assets?< Possibly he's thinking of what post WW 1 Germany gave up as reparations, the Ruhr and Alsace-Lorraine, but that was a seizure by victors.
I thought of the Pacific Northwest and the domestic lumbering industry. It was shut down by environmentalists, who then turned a blind eye to the Japanese harvesting and processing timber. And we owe Japan lots because of our trade deficit with them.
Same thing with China, we've sold off everything from machine tools to production of most everything in the bigbox stores. The Chinese gov't must be happy with this arrangement because they keep lending us the money to buy their stuff. Then there is the Escalante coal deposits, China would be happy to mine there and I'll bet the permits would be expedited.
I'll add something Canada did in the middle 1980s. The Canadians turned a blind eye to the Russian factory trawlers that were stripping their Atlantic fisheries. The deal appeared to be Russia would sell them platinum group metals if the government didn't kick up too much of a fuss about the overfishing.
I'm first to admit weakness in economics, that's why I'm here. Where does this kind of barter fit in?
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Stand up and be counted or line up and be numbered.
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Themortgagedude
Posts: 8853
Incept: 2007-12-17
saint louis
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The way I look at credit is that it's money until it's not. When it must be paid back it is a negative upon that money supply. Some people say that it's worse in that you must also repay the interest. I say that's a zero sum game because someone is getting the interest. Now if that interest is sent overseas then it is a negative sum game long run to borrow the money.
Am I looking at this wrong?
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I'm already visualizing you with duct tape over your mouth.
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Genesis
Posts: 130795
Incept: 2007-06-26
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You'd have to prove a connection, which is likely to be difficult at best.
Asset-stripping the loser of a war has no analogy -- that's utterly common and in fact expected (the winners usually want the losers to pay in some fashion for the fact they "made them" go to war in the first place.)
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Genesis
Posts: 130795
Incept: 2007-06-26
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TMD: Borrowing you intend to pay is zero-sum over time as it simply is a time-shift. This is the argument economists use all the time in ignoring it (and they mostly do.)
Where that argument falls flat is when you start using debt to pay debt -- that is, when you begin to demonstrate intent to NEVER pay.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Marvinmartian
Posts: 754
Incept: 2011-03-16
Pasadena, CA
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genesis wrote..Until we demand that all unsecured lending be backed by a dollar of capital in each and every case we will never restore the money power to where it belongs. Our representatives in Washington have stopped representing the electorate and now represent the FIRE economy, big pharma, agribiz etc. Our power now resides in the power to boycott or shun the banks, and boycot, shun or minimize business with the corporations in league with them. Kinda like boycotting the British East Indies Company in 1773. wikipedia wrote..Colonial merchants, some of them smugglers, played a significant role in the protests. Because the Tea Act made legally imported tea cheaper, it threatened to put smugglers of Dutch tea out of business.[43] Legitimate tea importers who had not been named as consignees by the East India Company were also threatened with financial ruin by the Tea Act.[44] Another major concern for merchants was that the Tea Act gave the East India Company a monopoly on the tea trade, and it was feared that this government-created monopoly might be extended in the future to include other goods.[45]
South of Boston, protestors successfully compelled the tea consignees to resign. In Charleston, the consignees had been forced to resign by early December, and the unclaimed tea was seized by customs officials.[46] There were mass protest meetings in Philadelphia. Benjamin Rush urged his fellow countrymen to oppose the landing of the tea, because the cargo contained "the seeds of slavery".[47] By early December, the Philadelphia consignees had resigned and the tea ship returned to England with its cargo following a confrontation with the ship's captain.[48] The tea ship bound for New York City was delayed by bad weather; by the time it arrived, the consignees had resigned, and the ship returned to England with the tea.[49] I view the current national debt situation as containing "the seeds of slavery"
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Jstanley01
Posts: 8182
Incept: 2008-07-30
San Antonio, Texas
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What sovereign debt is backed by is the government's power to extract the future labor of its citizenry subjects serfs slaves via taxes. Or in more general terms, it's backed by the government's ability and willingness to foster economic prosperity within its borders... 
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You can't cheat an honest man. ~P.T. Barnum
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Themortgagedude
Posts: 8853
Incept: 2007-12-17
saint louis
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And if we have the Fed print the money to buy the debt and then we never repay does this have the same effect as if we had printed in the first place? I think this is where the printing and not printing line is blurred. And where we get wild swings in commodity prices as well. If it weren't for the expansion in monetary supply thru the years we'd probably have $2 corn and $200 gold wouldn't we?
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I'm already visualizing you with duct tape over your mouth.
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Genesis
Posts: 130795
Incept: 2007-06-26
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Look at the DOW or the S&P 500.... and how it correlates with the expansion of systemic debt.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Themortgagedude
Posts: 8853
Incept: 2007-12-17
saint louis
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And when we default? Look where the SnP goes then? Gotcha.
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I'm already visualizing you with duct tape over your mouth.
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