| User Info
| Private Property Now Subject To Seizure in forum [Market-Ticker]
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Agau
Posts: 5097
Incept: 2010-06-04
Online
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Bubbazanetti
Posts: 550
Incept: 2007-08-23
NOLA
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I am withdrawing my 401K first thing Monday morn., fees and taxes be damned.
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Icanhasbailout
Posts: 9939
Incept: 2009-03-10
Imaginationland
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Private property died with the War on Drugs and forfeiture policy - this is simply taking the same line of thinking to its logical conclusion: All property belongs to the State to distribute as it sees fit. This legal theory was reinforced by Kelo, and by the GM bankruptcy.
When political interests are involved, all bets are off - they have told us three times now, at least, so we would be wise to presume that they mean it.
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Drjerry
Posts: 591
Incept: 2007-11-06
Seattle
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Apparently the IRS has done this for years. There are stories of tradesmen having, in some cases thousands of dollars worth of tools padlocked when the IRS seizes a shop. The courts usually release them but the guy can't work in his trade until the court releases it.
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Flappingeagle
Posts: 1250
Incept: 2011-04-14
Online
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A couple of months ago I jokingly said that other than food and the means to grow it, the only investment that made sense in this economy was silver bullets. They can serve as money and can be used in your firearm to protect your other property. To damn bad that I was correct. Ichan said: Quote:Private property died with the War on Drugs and forfeiture policy - this is simply taking the same line of thinking to its logical conclusion: All property belongs to the State to distribute as it sees fit. This legal theory was reinforced by Kelo, and by the GM bankruptcy. Right on the money. The war on Drugs started this whole mess and people could not realize that we were the "frog in the pot" on whom the temperature was slowly being raised. I remember a scene from babylon 5 where Sheridan asked Kosh "how will it end" and Kosh said, "in fire". Flap
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Here are my predictions for everyone to see:
S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu.
"You can't build a house of cards on a shaking table." - Tony Johns
The January 2015 AMZN put at $130 (cost $4.25) will be a winner.
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Azusgm
Posts: 2623
Incept: 2010-12-02
East Texas
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Be very careful about who you elect to be your sheriff.
Someone I know quite well (not myself) had several thousand dollars seized without notice directly from her checking account by the IRS. She found out a couple of days later after making a deposit in person at her bank. The deposit receipt came up short by the large amount. She only found out about the IRS's action when she questioned an officer of the bank. He told her that they had no choice but to relinquish the funds because the sheriff had come with an order. The sheriff told her that it was an order that had been sent to him for execution. She told the banker that never again was anyone to go near her money, order or not, without an immediate phone call to her. He finally agreed that she needed to be notified that she needed to be prepared to shift funds around in case there were any outstanding checks that might have caused her to be overdrawn. She also discussed the situation with the sheriff. A day or two later, the IRS letter arrived notifying her that she and her husband and there business were to be subjects of an audit.
Apparently, the IRS likes to seize collateral in a disorderly fashion then discuss matters later.
The audit came out clean. The money was eventually refunded, but then a handsome portion of it went to pay the CPA for his services.
(Sigh)
I'm too old to fight and I'm too old to leave. Plus, I have two little old ladies living with me that I can't leave behind. I guess I'm stuck here. Good thing this is Texas and I have a garden.
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Curdmugeon45
Posts: 29
Incept: 2010-06-25
Houston, Texas
Banned
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How does that saying go?
You only really own what you can run away with?
But yeah, this is bull****...
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Loki
Posts: 7
Incept: 2011-12-02
Galesville, WI
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It is my understanding that when a person allows a bank, a vault, or hedge fund or sort of trust, corporation, or partnership to hold in their warehouse that person's property it must be registered and a warehouse receipt is issued which becomes an IOU that is redeemable.
When said institution goes under, because it is holding assets on its books creditors that are 1st in line of/for lien position can collect from any & all assets on the institutions books necessary to recoup credit owed. Whatever is left over is then subject to the 2nd lien holder & so on.
When all the lien holders-that have filed through the proper paperwork liens against the institution-have been resolved THEN & ONLY THEN do those who foolishly stored have a crack at whatever is left over.
If those who held gold/silver bars had filed the proper liens annotating the serial numbers of the bars against the institution at the time they began storing their bars they would not have this issue, BUT because they did they are not a legally recognized lien holder pursuant to the UCC as far as I am able to understand.
So it is thefting of private property, but on a technicality it is legal and permissible under the law so far as I am able to understand the complexity & intricacies of UCC-Maritime-Admirality Law. Do not take this as saying it is right & it needs to be stopped years ago.
We need reform and criminal prosecution-not a year or two-not 10-20 years-Capitol Punishment. The fear of God must be put in these men without scruples.
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Bertdilbert
Posts: 2694
Incept: 2008-12-22
CA
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Hang on this may be fear mongering.
"At stake is an unspecified, but apparently large, volume of gold and silver bars slated for delivery to traders through accounts at MF Global"
It appears that it may not have reached segregated status yet, so we could be jumping the gun here. If so, then pooling would probably be permissible. Regardless, it will be spun as segregated gold by the hold in your hand coin dealer community. Expect GLD and SLV trashing at any time...
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Dear Euroland: Relax, Germany has a plan for your money!
Political Capital Defined: We are out of money but will tax our citizens for whatever it takes to "SAVE" the Euro.
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Resistance
Posts: 6162
Incept: 2008-09-26
Banned
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This his hardly breaking news... Private Property has long been subject to seizure at the pleasure of the State. The War on Drugs Asset Forfeiture anyone?
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"Why must political experiments always be in the direction of more government? Why not give the free market a county or even a state or two, and see what it can accomplish?"Murray Rothbard - The Fallacy of the Public Sector
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Mad
Posts: 19
Incept: 2011-04-28
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This is what I posted on another Zero Hedge Blog.
MF Global was a Bailiff of the Gold and Silver of their Customers. They were responsible for the Care and storage of these assets for others. Although, they had possession they did not have any legal right to these assets.
The Gold and Silver that MF Global has in its possession is not their property but the property of others it was a Bailiff for. The Gold and Silver that MF Global had in its possession belonged to others and not to them. They should not be able to include other peoples property in their Bankruptcy as it is not their asset, it is the asset of someone else. The Gold and Silver that belongs to someone else should not be allowed to be liquidated and given to MF Global's Creditors as it is not their asset. The Gold and Silver should be returned to its rightful owner.
It is kind of like having a Diamond Necklace in your Safe Deposit Box at a Bank. If the Bank goes Bankrupt the Trustee of the Bankruptcy does not have the right to liquidate your Diamond Necklace and give the proceeds to the Banks Creditors. Just because the Safe Deposit Box is on the Banks property that does not give them ownership of the contents. This situation should be no different with the Gold and Silver that MF Global holds for others.
So, yes Karl I agree with you.
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Weezie
Posts: 6150
Incept: 2008-05-19
Caution: Congress at Work
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Quote:I remember a scene from babylon 5 where Sheridan asked Kosh "how will it end" and Kosh said, "in fire". The avalanche has started; it is too late for the pebbles to vote.
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jihad pressure cooker tea party guns Constitution Bill of Rights play doh squiggly line prepper home garden cluster****
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Mad
Posts: 19
Incept: 2011-04-28
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The other concern is that the price of Gold was pushed down or sold off substantially in the last few weeks. So,if the Gold is liquidated now it will be liquidated for a lot less than it was just 2 weeks ago. It almost appears like the Big Boys like JPM and Goldman forced the price of Gold down so they can buy it up a lot lower when this Gold is liquidated. and by the time the People get what is left for their Gold if the price of Gold spikes back up they will not be able to buy back what they already had.
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Agau
Posts: 5097
Incept: 2010-06-04
Online
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"If those who held gold/silver bars had filed the proper liens...they would not have this issue, BUT because they did not, they are not a legally recognized lien holder..."
Fixed it though this assumes that the holders did not directly own the PM, paying a fee to store it - the bailiff issue.
For instance, if your landlord or marina owner goes BK, the sheriff can not seize the apt contents or the boats in the slip.
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Tallystick
Posts: 2265
Incept: 2009-09-20
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Who cares, it was clearly property of terrorists. Only terrorists have gold and silver. Patriotic Americans store their money digitally in Bank of America, Wells Fargo, and JP Morgan Chase accounts.
This action obviously was done to make America safer for your freedoms.
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Sean
Posts: 1790
Incept: 2009-04-21
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5 Days ago I gave the order to liquidate ALL of my gold and silver in my IRA and 401K!
Besides I have 21 years to go until I can get it out penalty free and by then they will have changed the laws so I will be screwed out of most of it anyway or will have to wait until I am 69.5, etc. ****ers!
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* I think Ann Barnhardt is more and more right. God help us!
* Progressives / Marxists / Communists are many things, STUPID and IMPATIENT are not two of them.
* A hot civil war is coming.
* And people wonder why I prep!
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Aztrader
Posts: 6658
Incept: 2007-09-10
Scottsdale, AZ
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Loki
Posts: 7
Incept: 2011-12-02
Galesville, WI
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Agau did the individual in question register their property with the apartment manager, super-intendant-owner or boat/jet ski with the marina (vs. the state) like was done to the best of my knowledge by the precious metals holders at MF Global?
There is a world of difference in this legally and you are comparing in this analogy apples to pineapple grenades.
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Themortgagedude
Posts: 8899
Incept: 2007-12-17
saint louis
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Why are we surprised any more? After the handling of senior debt in the GM bankruptcy.
This creates a HUGE problem for family farmers. Many store their grain at the local grain merchant. They have a receipt for it. Now with this I guess you would be ruling that the grain is no longer theirs but rather a debt owed to them by the grain dealer. So the farmer could go ahead and deliver the grain and hedge his position thru a brokerage. Whoops, you can't trust that.
Maybe I want to get out of the mortgage business and start selling grain bins.
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I'm already visualizing you with duct tape over your mouth.
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Captainkidd
Posts: 594
Incept: 2010-05-25
Pasadena, Texas
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Quote:Who cares, it was clearly property of terrorists. Only terrorists have gold and silver. Patriotic Americans store their money digitally in Bank of America, Wells Fargo, and JP Morgan Chase accounts.
This action obviously was done to make America safer for your freedoms. Absolutely. It was for the Children!!!! /sarc ***********************************
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A lawyer with a briefcase can steal more than a thousand men with guns. --Mario Puzo
It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning. -- Henry Ford
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Obseedian
Posts: 11890
Incept: 2007-07-26
BBRY Central
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This makes no sense, unless MF Global had derivatives contracts written against that silver.
Remember that giant short position in silver and gold? What if in fact this short position is not naked but instead covered by customer gold/silver supposedly held in segregation? Of course this is just idle speculation on my part, but after what happened, I wouldn't put it past these mofos to actually do something like this.
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Friar_tuck
Posts: 1118
Incept: 2008-01-09
N. Cal
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Celente held up his original statement for 100 ounces at 1443.00 for December delivery on AJ's show last week. MF global has apparently pawned fulfillment off to a third party trustee firm ( forget the name). Anyway, the third party has sent him a "corrected statement" indicating that he gets 100 Oz. @1750 for december delivery. He says it's about a 30k loss. Guess he's lucky to get anything?
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Marvinmartian
Posts: 759
Incept: 2011-03-16
Pasadena, CA
Banned
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Loki wrote..If those who held gold/silver bars had filed the proper liens annotating the serial numbers of the bars against the institution at the time they began storing their bars they would not have this issue, BUT because they did they are not a legally recognized lien holder pursuant to the UCC as far as I am able to understand. So, its because Celente did not know to file a lien with proper serial numbers that he has had his silver taken from him. Sounds crooked. I'm still proceeding with my plan to have exactly one tighly managed securities margin account, with other dispersed cash accounts at various brokers. |
Lowbeyond
Posts: 17126
Incept: 2008-02-11
CO aka West NJ/East CA
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To all those who think you actually OWN something...  Laws the Law Suckers !
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Maybe it was a birdy bread-bomber from the future?!
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