Gasbag weighs in:

Quote:

MF Global’s Missing Money Likely Gone for Good
By Charlie Gasparino
Dec 6, 2011, 4:12 PM

Investigators looking into the disappearance of customer funds during the implosion of MF Global last month are coming to the conclusion that the money is likely gone for good, sources with direct knowledge of the matter tell the FOX Business Network.

What they don’t know is just how much money is missing.

That is likely to change as early as Friday, when bankruptcy trustee James Giddens provides an updated tally on the missing money, one of the focal points of civil and criminal investigations into the firm’s bankruptcy and a likely topic of conversation when the first of three Congressional hearings takes place this week.

The House Agriculture Committee on Thursday is scheduled to hear testimony from several witnesses, including MF Global’s former chief executive, Jon Corzine, regarding the brokerage’s demise. It was Corzine who changed MF Global’s business model from a plain-vanilla brokerage firm of commodities to a risk-taking outfit not unlike a hedge fund that ultimately led to its sudden downfall last month.

Amid the firm’s implosion, as much as $1.2 billion of customer money remains missing; if executives of the firm purposely co-mingled customer cash with those used to run MF Global’s operations, that could lead to criminal fraud charges.

As of Monday, staffers for the House Agriculture Committee said Corzine’s attorneys had given no indication of whether Corzine will answer questions from the committee or remain silent by exercising his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination. Tamara Hinton, a spokeswoman for the Agriculture Committee, refused to comment on whether Corzine’s attorneys have given any further indication to the committee about his testimony, and a spokesman for Corzine declined comment.

One source close to Corzine said he has yet to make up his mind on the matter.

Meanwhile, Giddens, the bankruptcy trustee for the brokerage firm, is preparing to meet a request from judge Martin Glenn, who is overseeing the case, on disclosing an update on the amount of money still missing. While the bankruptcy hearing won’t contain the same drama as Thursday’s Congressional hearing, for customers of MF Global its importance looms large.

Giddens has said as much as $1.2 billion is missing from customer accounts; other estimates are closer to $600 million still missing. So far, customers are expecting to recover about 65% of their funds.

One thing seems to be certain: Investigators and banks that have had extensive dealings with MF Global believe whatever money is missing is probably gone forever and won’t be able to be returned to investors when the investigation is complete, according to people with direct knowledge of the matter. That’s because even if customer funds are located, if they were used to pay off legitimate claims of creditors those creditors are legally entitled to the money. (An MF Global spokesperson had no immediate comment.)

As a result, so-called claw-back provisions that cover ill-gotten gains, such as the customer money Bernie Madoff paid to his investors during his Ponzi scheme, do not apply...

More: http://wallstreetpit.com/87223-mf-global....

I still don't understand why the CME didn't step in and make those with deposits at MF Global whole.

Put up or.shut up videopro....otherwise you are full of **** and the post needs to be bilged.

if you really think that mass theft of bank accounts will happen without an outright war breaking you are the one who is delusional .

Stan, because if they did, then they would have do it for others later on.

I think the guys at Fido are making a couple assumptions - MFG was a "one off", and the rule of law still exists - my friend differentiated the banks from MFG in that Corzine used client money to leverage a bet on greek debt and lost - he said deposit banks don't or can't use peoples checking deposits, for example, to gamble that way - forgive me if i'm seeming obtuse, I'm just trying to get a firmer grip on the situation.

Gates, I know that Fido is a big company, and is well respected. However, I seriously doubt that whoever was "up the chain" knows what they were talking about when it comes to this kind of thing. I know many people, some pretty high up at different financial companies around the country, and none of them are informed enough to know about the topic of this Ticker. Probably the only people who are aware are at the very top of the chain, like in the executive office.

Quote: "So, my earnest recommendation to all you Rambos, or wannabee Rambos or whatever you think you are with the gunslinging talk, you are simply going to be the finest target for takedown by the draconian state power you would NOT even imagine. Because as things have now transformed, money indeed has far more worth than any lowly life of YOURS in the mind of the financial elite and the forces they command."


Why fight with a bunch of body armor wearing swat teams when a disaffected person could just walk into a dry field in California with a can of gasoline and a book of matches, and cost "the system" hundreds of millions of dollars in putting out the blaze?

The electrical grid is tragically unprotected, and the large transformers, easy to damage, are difficult to replace and manufacture... thousands of miles of highway, overpasses, railroad tracks... completely un-observed and un-guarded.

You see where this is going? Hell look how much chaos the copper thieves are causing... and they are just after profit... not deliberately attacking the infrastructure...

America only "works" because the people choose to be civil, honest, and largely cooperative with the powers that be. As they kill that trust... as they destroy the "civil society" the environment that allows the "system" to flow smoothly will break down - or be deliberately destroyed.

People are not by and large so stupid that they will scream "Wolverines!!!" and charge down a SWAT team if the banks rob them of everything - or "claw back" their assets and savings - in the event of financial Armageddon.

Well... I suppose some will be (see the guy that flew his plane into the IRS building) - those poor souls will find themselves testing dummies for all the mil-spec gear our Mall-ninja p0lice forces are stockpiling.

That being said... I believe most Americans are smart enough to realize that s@botage - attacking the infrastructure that supports the beast - is vastly more destruct1ve to the entrenched powersthan sh**ting up your office space or a bank lobby.

These slime-bags have zero concern for de@d people - and that includes the piggies they employ as their muscle. T@rgeting the bank employees, the c0ps, or even innocent by standards would not accomplish much - these folks are as expendable as you and I to the real pushes of this nonsense. The best way to hurt them would financially.

Consider how much of a wrench Anonymous throws in things with their internet attacks. Imagine how devastating it would be if people en-mass started withdrawing their money from the TBTF institutions. What happens when angry people go Galt? Or stop honestly paying their taxes? There are a hell of alot of ways to resist that don't involve a r1fle.

If the banksters finish creating their utterly lawless kleptocracy, then I would expect the the "civil environment" facilitating "the system" will break down - the infrastructure that these banks and politicos suck blood out of will start to crumble - or be deliberately destroyed - by angry citizens.

Unlike some mad-dog wh@cking "expendables," (that TPTB never cared about anyways), tearing apart the nations infrastructure is damn hard to prevent, catch, and more expensive to replace than some flags to drape over c0ffins and early pension pay-outs for expendable mooks.

The people are not powerless, and those in charge are fools if they think a p0lice state will transform America into a nation of callow serfs. There is far far far too much spread out infrastructure for them to ever hope to protect, and as it falls apart - or gets taken apart - their ability to project "force" diminishes as the cash swirls down the drain.

I could imagine some angry American in a conversation with a representative of the powers that be...

"Nice Water Tower you have there Mr. Bankster, all alone out there in the middle of nowhere. Looks expensive. So... what was that again about clawing back our savings and co-mingling our funds with risky investments?"

-_-

Rick - Well - then I guess it's pointless to pursue this with him, they have made up their minds - nothing is wrong.

Quote:

Put up or.shut up videopro....otherwise you are full of **** and the post needs to be bilged.

if you really think that mass theft of bank accounts will happen without an outright war breaking you are the one who is delusional .

They already have EINSTEIN.

On ignore you go!

Likewise dip****

@silverdeath: Is there a cite where I can learn more - I like the possibilities you mentioned - had never thought of infrastucture, but you're right, imitating Custers Last Stand with my AK is not what I have in mind!

Truth said:

Quote:

Continuing on as though it didn't happen or isn't important is insane.

That's why I quit "continuing on in 2008".

Wow - this thread has a whole lot of TF'rs attention - see what happens when you are the ones getting screwed? (Instead of millions of homeowners)

Welcome to the party, welcome to my world, I've been right in that anarchic state of mind since 2008 when they stole my money.

@Videopro: +1000%

Smacktle - yes I realise the safety box is at a bank.

I guestimate the risk that a Swiss bank will dare to lock out Swiss (and foreigners) from their safety deposit boxes at rather low, probably lower than having robbers in my home looking under my mattress. Interests are close to 0% anyhow here for CHF.

Good points from Silverdeth, French Resistance didn't either jump in front of a platoon of Germans to get shot, they destroyed train tracks and infrastructure (at least in the movies...).

I am not providing you a how-to list halfbrite. I am simply explaining that people in general will not sit around and take their "raping." What I am providing some hypothetical examples of how angry citizens might react if our "betters" screw them though the mechanism Karl is presenting. While it's safe to say that sh00ting rampages will be thankfully rare, this is not to say that the citizenry will sit idle while they are enslaved either.

Lives are cheap to bankers. The people will find "valuable" things to break - some using legal mechanisms, such as simply leaving the economy, some... well... not so much...

Quote:

he said deposit banks don't or can't use peoples checking deposits, for example, to gamble that way

That's not really true. Moving assets from the Merrill side of the business to the B of A retail deposit side belies that, since B of A has "greater liquidity" (primarily customer deposits) with which to play.

Karl has pointed out, in prior bank failures, that capital was vaporized completely and the FDIC didn't exercise its "prompt corrective action" mandate at that time -- allowing bad mortgage losses to cut deep into deposits. (That's what happened at IndyMac, and why depositors over $250K got hosed... as well as why the FDIC has had to pour so much cash into failed institutions).

Derivatives trades are potentially even riskier, for two reasons. One, the capital that big money center banks like B of A and Citi report to the street is likely, shall we say, not a great reflection of their actual financial condition.

Number two, with the FDIC and other regulators allowing banks to burn through all their capital and deep into customer deposits for "boring" banking products like mortgages, I am not confident that the government would recognize a serious crisis involving more obtuse instruments like complex derivatives.

Number three, B of A, Citi, JPM, etc. are major corporate banks as well... big businesses use them for making payroll, trade credit flows through them, their payment systems are used for supply chains, etc. All that cash is considered "deposits." If one of them was to hit a capital or depository deficit due to a major payment due to a counterparty, it would be very very bad. As in "Target doesn't get inventory, IBM's payroll doesn't get processed, and debit/credit cards stop working all over the country."

So in short, YES, the big money center banks DO gamble with customer deposits (just like all banks do). Depositors are supposed to be protected from the losses burning into their own deposits, but the FDIC has been lax in this. And the unpredictability, sudden drift in/out of money and counterparty risk chains of complex derivatives means the losses can be much larger, much more suddenly -- along with the FDIC liability.

Losing equity in one's home is now considered "stolen money." Oh the mother ****ing hilarity.

So anyone that has ever lost equity in the house or stock market is 'entitled' to have their 'stolen' money returned? Good one. Sounds like capitalism to me...

Did you realize all wire transfers have to be cleared(tracked?) through the Federal Reserve? Did you realize that cash withdrawls over $2K are reported to the Fed?

They say it's because of terrorism...

Antone said:

Quote:

Losing equity in one's home is now considered "stolen money." Oh the mother ****ing hilarity.

Half replied: Yeah.

Since 2008.

While you sat on your a** and opined about all the "evil borrowers" and cared nothing for your fellow americans.

You think you "get it"?

When you and your family personally are the ones to get screwed out of everything you've worked 25 years to save, my friend, then (and only then) will you truly get it.

All on TF who have been "above the fray" are suddenly engaged, since their ox is being gored - MF Global/clawback laws.

You cannot ignore when real property owners get screwed - "Under all is the land" - it's the lynchpin of our society.

Private property rights are the cornerstone of the country - always have been.

Without the right to use and enjoy something that's yours, there is nothing.

Think about it.

And this BS about renting from the bank? Puuleeease just stop this ignorant meme - YOU OWN THE HOUSE . There are many different types of ownership.

Grant a life estate to your mom - she owns the house, until she dies.

Try to extract oil from your basement - you don't own the mineral rights.

Please don't try to define renters and landlords unless you first understand "ownership" - in all it's forms.

I could have bought anytime from 2005-2009 but didn't because I recognized there was a housing bubble. Everyone was calling me an idiot at the time.

Investment involves risk and you have to do your due diligence. I'm sorry you didn't perform your own.

But "equity" isn't money in the bank until you've sold. You're living a pipe dream if you think the lost equity was "stolen."

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Losing equity in one's home is now considered "stolen money."

Hey, let me sell you some equity. It's in this stock, which I personally guarantee will deliver an annual dividend equal to 100% of the purchase price each quarter, in a hot market!

It's GUARANTEED! It's going to take over the world! You'd have to be an idiot not to get into the market.

Further, my chief economist here says that this stock will go to the moon. There's no risk!

*six months later*

Well, so the stock was indeed a pump-and-dump scheme. But I'm keeping your money. My chief economist was in on the scam too. You get NOTHING, SUCKER!

What?!? Accusing me of fraud?!? You SOCIALIST!

(That's roughly analogous to what happened to the average Joe in that situation. Think it can't happen to you -- that regulators, common decency and "commitment to capitalism" will keep you "safe?" Don't complain when you're wrong. Once they finish wringing all the cash and assets they can out of those poor fools who believed their pitch, they'll steal you blind via institutions and investments you believed were "safe," including your bank account, commodities stockpiles, etc. And they'll accuse YOU of being a commie when you demand justice.)

@Antone You said:

Quote:

I'm sorry you didn't perform your own.

Actually, for clarity of discussion, I did.

My handle is "halfbrite" because I sold half of my real estate holdings in 2004, did really well, and retired. I still own the other half (with equity in all), because I was not a whiz bang "financial services professional" like many on TF and had no clue as to what was coming.

You needn't agree with me - you will soon be forced into reality, when it's your turn to be screwed - imo, that's inevitable, not through any fault or lack of knowledge on your own - it's just what happens when private property rights are destroyed.

The vast majority of the people who settled our country came for one reason - LAND OF THEIR OWN - look it up.

Private property rights are not just important - they are the foundation of our society.

Without private property rights, society crashes and burns.

I've been proud to defend private property rights with my time, and my money, for over 25 years. I feel strongly about the absolute right to own your own property. When they destroyed ownership records with MERS, they did fundamental damage to america, and The country will never recover until the right to the use and enjoyment of real property, that is yours, is restored

That's a foundational, rule of law, concept in America.

Did you know, that when a state liens your home for non-payment of property taxes, they can lien it, but they cannot take your ownership? You continue to have the absolute right to the "use and enjoyment of the property, regardless if the lien is ever settled. The state has no right whatwoever, at any time, to your property (absent eminent domain) - but the bankers do!

There are consequences when you destroy the foundational concept of society.

Quote:

That's not really true. Moving assets from the Merrill side of the business to the B of A retail deposit side belies that, since B of A has "greater liquidity" (primarily customer deposits) with which to play.

Karl has pointed out, in prior bank failures, that capital was vaporized completely and the FDIC didn't exercise its "prompt corrective action" mandate at that time -- allowing bad mortgage losses to cut deep into deposits. (That's what happened at IndyMac, and why depositors over $250K got hosed... as well as why the FDIC has had to pour so much cash into failed institutions).

Exactly.

One word: Colonial.

That was a PUBLICLY TRADED bank that got FORTY PERCENT upside down beyond legal limits (6% excess capitalization) before it was seized.

FORTY PERCENT.

The FDIC was able to "make good" because it was RELATIVELY small.

Now what happens if BAC goes FORTY PERCENT upside-down on its deposit base?

Go run the numbers. Now tell me where the FDIC is going to get they money. And that's ONE bank. How many more go down if BAC blows up?

Substitute ANY of the big banks for BAC if you wish. This is NOT specific to them and this example is an ILLUSTRATION. It could be ANY of them.

You think they're not gambling away your money eh? Fido doesn't think so?

Ok, then how did it happen at COLONIAL?

WAKE THE **** UP.

Antone I believe you saw this thread:

http://market-ticker.org/cgi-ticker/akcs....

It speaks for itself.

Karl - Like I said, I'm just trying to get a better understanding - I was just relaying what he told me so I'll shoot him a copy of your last post and see what he has to say. He doesn't speak for Fido BTW - sorry if I gave that impression - just two buddies shooting the **** about your Ticker.

Maybe off topic but here it is anyway.

Tonight I watched the latest tv episode of House. One of its lesser memes was if you have gotten a vaccine you would not have gotten this disease - dyptheria - very, very rare from what I understand.

But the main topic was the main char for this episode had a huge cache of weapons - all kinds in a secret compartement in his house. Now the story goes that he had these weapons because he was afraid of a banking crisis. He was portrayed as a good-looking 40 year-old smart prosecuter. The story made it (mostly) look like he was a sort-of parinoid nut case and there was nothting to worry about.

I stopped watching tv except for House and Hawaii 5-0 in March of 2010 and I found this topic (guns/banking crisis) as very subtle proaganda.

Did any body else see it and did they get this feeling?

- Sean

Very interested to hear his response Gates.