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| So The World Is Facing Truth On Iran? in forum [Market-Ticker]
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Widgeon
Posts: 13481
Incept: 2007-08-30
Region formerly known as the United States
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Iran clearly intends to have Nukes: Not debatable. Also not debatable is that we've led them there with our policies ... what a crappy situation.
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Abn0rmal
Posts: 9261
Incept: 2009-01-10
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Even though he holds the title of "President", as far as I can tell Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has as much actual power as Joe Biden does. I think it's more likely that any rhetoric coming from him represents propaganda rather than the intentions of the actual decision makers.
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Widgeon
Posts: 13481
Incept: 2007-08-30
Region formerly known as the United States
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I can go w/ that.
I'm every bit, if not more, concerned about the Paki weapons and their "security."
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Zzt
Posts: 3034
Incept: 2007-06-26
Glendale az
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The real question to ask about Iran is , " Will a theocracy in Iran prove its insanity , and thereby committing suicide , by attacking another country with atomic weapons ? "
An offensive use of a bomb would insure their violent demise. ( and it would not necessarily come from the U.S. )
My gut tells me that Iran is not that self destructive..........and if they are there will be no Iran to worry about after the fact.
Problem solved.
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Onion
Posts: 129
Incept: 2008-04-05
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Remember that Israel has been told repeatedly that they would be "wiped off the map" by Iran.
This was said repeatedly? By who? I've heard plenty of western media regurgitating this info. But is it actually true, or the same sort of BS they're playing with the 'Occupy' protestors?
Will Israel hit them anyway, whether we like it or not?
They may do. Whether it's because they genuinely believe Iranian intent, or are simply using that as a pretext I don't know.
I think the insane military overstretch and financial support for Israel (which finances a much better standard of social services and welfare, while these things get cut back severely in the USA) is going to invite a big backlash.
The objective evidence seems to be that nukes prevent invasion/ wars by America (though Pakistan is stretching that a bit). So it's a rational response to want nukes.
That said, the Iranians in charge are as bad as the Israelis in charge. I'm a Brit, but found it wildly offensive to see Congress cheer Netanyahu to the rafters even as he insulted the Office of the President.
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Flappingeagle
Posts: 1224
Incept: 2011-04-14
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Short of being able to read minds and see the future, there is no way to tell what someones intentions are or what their future actions will be. The Iranian president may be just saying what he thinks his own people want to hear and nothing more or, he could really be planning an attack.
My first thought, and I do say first, is to use back channels to let Iran know that if they nuke anyone we will utterly destory their country and not follow it up with any aid. If their neighbors want to invade afterward and carve up their country that will be the Iranian's problem.
Bombing every dam and every powerplant to where it is beyond repair would go a long way toward crippling Iran.
Could also let them know that we will not be bombing the Kurdish north as they will be encouraged to leave Iran...
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Here are my predictions for everyone to see: S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu. "You can't build a house of cards on a shaking table." - Tony Johns The January 2015 AMZN put at $130 (cost $4.25) will be a winner.
Reason: added a thought
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Brian_cali
Posts: 182
Incept: 2011-10-22
San Francisco
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We scared the crap out of them. It's that simple.
Our president at the time declared an "Axis of Evil" that included Iraq, Iran and North Korea. He inferred that the US could strike and "take 'em out" at any time.
Then he invaded Iraq and toppled the regime there. Lo and behold, Iran and North Korea have now developed nuclear weapons (or are on their way to doing so, in Iran's case).
Not a surprise.
Nukes are expensive and difficult to maintain. Even coercive dictatorships without concern for their people would likely prefer not to have them because of those two factors. The primary reason they're developing them is deterrent. The US/NATO intervention in Libya has likely only hastened the urgency in Tehran to build these.
The whole idea is to make an Iraq/Libya situation unthinkable to NATO in Iran.
As for Israel launching a pre-emptive attack, I think the Secretary of State (or barring her, the president) needs to grow a pair. The government in Jerusalem has clearly decided that it can unilaterally dictate policy to the USA, and has done outrageous things like tread on the toes of a NATO ally (Turkey) and expect the US to side unconditionally against Turkey (and arguably against its NATO obligations).
It should be communicated, in no uncertain terms, that if the Israelis launch a pre-emptive strike on Iran, they're on their own. Iran is no cakewalk war -- it's no Iraq or Libya. It has a large population, challenging topography, a modern and well-equipped military with an advanced air force, and strong diplomatic relations with China and Russia. A pre-emptive strike could trigger WW III rather easily -- especially if China and/or Russia decide that their energy supplies and strategic interests are threatened by a US intervention there.
A ground war would also be bloody and endless.
Not a good idea. We should accept that the policies of the last ten years have been abject failures, and make course corrections now, in my view.
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Mortgageguymn
Posts: 1561
Incept: 2009-03-09
North Coast
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When did Netanyahu insult the Office of the President? I thought all he did was snub Obama - a guy who could use a good snubbing or three. When it comes to outrageous quotes from Iranian leaders, people can make plenty of disingenuous arguments trying to erase the quotes in question. One such back & forth is here: http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2007/1.... Most honest people would come away with the clear understanding that Iran has seriously rattled its saber for along time regarding Israel. The question is whether the threat of national annihilation can deter Iran from striking Israel first. Maybe. Maybe not. The time may eventually come when Iran (and other fanatical Islamic entities) can only be deterred by threatening something other than a nation or two. If the only thing they respect is Islam, perhaps they can only be deterred by threatening the holiest sites in Islam, even though they be in another country. The Hadj is one of the five pillars of Islam, for example. What if there were no more Mecca? God forbid it ever comes to that, but it's not inconceivable. In the meantime, I hope Israel's reputed 200 nuclear warheads can remain safely sheathed while deterring any WMD attacks.
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Halfbrite
Posts: 2459
Incept: 2008-10-13
Arizona via California
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This is an important policy question. Here's my $.02.
We should take no action - none - zip - nada - against Iran. No threats, no sanctions, just ignore them.
If Israel blows them up, that's Israel's business, not ours. If they do, we immediately cut all aid of any type to Israel, and sever our "relationship" with them - let Israel stand (or fall) alone.
Announce our new policy publicly, with fanfare, on the world stage.
Problem solved, next issue.
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"That which cannot continue, will not continue. Brace for impact!"
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Brian_cali
Posts: 182
Incept: 2011-10-22
San Francisco
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Quote:When did Netanyahu insult the Office of the President? I thought all he did was snub Obama - a guy who could use a good snubbing or three. A large proportion of the Israeli government's budget comes from the US taxpayer. Regardless of who is elected in the office of president and whether or not I agree with him, I expect vassal states of the USA living off of my tax dollars to show respect, deference and subordination to the president of the United States. If he wants to snub and act independent, do so without any of my tax money. Quote:If Israel blows them up, that's Israel's business, not ours. I quite agree. The Israeli government has long assumed that it is a proxy (and indeed a superior partner) in US relations. There's a significant contingent in the US polity that will demand and deliver anything they want, and the Likud leadership's open contempt for US government leaders is well documented. I'm tired of being called a "bad Jew" for not supporting the Israeli government's policies. Oh well. Jerusalem needs to be aware that relations are typically bilateral, and that when most of your defense and government budget is provided by a foreign power, you defer in ALL areas to that foreign power or lose the funding. The Israeli government needs to learn balance -- that it is one actor in the region, not the "dominant actor" that can force its will on every other country through application of superior firepower by the USA. Until that policy change filters into the Knesset, we'll continue being stuck in a brinksmanship stance.
Reason: Added an additional reply
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Onelegged
Posts: 265
Incept: 2009-11-13
NW Colorado
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What ever course of action or inaction that we choose we can't afford to be wrong. This fact only makes any choice contemplated more difficult.
How reliable is the intelligence against Iran? Remember that Saddam had WMD and was poised to destroy us.
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The light at the end of this tunnel is a train.
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Widgeon
Posts: 13481
Incept: 2007-08-30
Region formerly known as the United States
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... generally, most people that I know never believed any WMD Meme w/ Iraq ... they all knew it was just "the story" that was being used and no one was fooled.
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Howardnyc
Posts: 132
Incept: 2007-11-01
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when north korea successfully exploded a couple of bombs, american presidents sure stopped talking so much mess about them.
just sayin'.
iran dropping a nuke on tel aviv is a suicide attack. this is about as assured as anything in the future of international events can be. having nukes is a wonderful deterrent.
if iran credibly announces one morning, 'hey, we have a nuke', the odds of an israeli first strike plummet like mf global.
i am amazed israel has not yet pulled the trigger. particularly as they were successful in doing the same against iraq in what, 1978? and then in syria a few years ago.
i am a huge supporter of israel (disclosure). i really hope they stay cool, and recognize they are gonna have to live in a world with a muslim nuke capability (in addition to pakistan). if not imminently with iran, someday soon with another nation. attempting to prevent this eventuality will fail. attempting to delay this with first strikes has passed the point of positive returns or outcomes. i think they were damn lucky with syria, and i doubt that would've gone w/o triggering a big war in the post-muhbarak era.
but aside from diplomacy, this is not our (the usa's) fight.
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kd told me (and i believe him) that "We (Americans) deserve a Depression."
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Stanowen
Posts: 160
Incept: 2008-10-02
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In light of Iraq, Afghanistan, and the global economic woes, I seriously doubt that anyone has an appetite for another war.
I question whether Israel can even garner the support for a preemptive strike on Iran.
If they do, America needs to let it be known that we won't swing in behind them and clean up the mess.
The bank is empty and so are our hearts, we don't have the money or resolve to support them.
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Onelegged
Posts: 265
Incept: 2009-11-13
NW Colorado
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No one that (that I can think of) I know believed that Iraq had WMD either. This fact did not prevent and invasion by the U.S. however.
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The light at the end of this tunnel is a train.
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Sean
Posts: 1765
Incept: 2009-04-21
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Quote:It should be communicated, in no uncertain terms, that if the Israelis launch a pre-emptive strike on Iran, they're on their own Quote:America needs to let it be known that we won't swing in behind them and clean up the mess. This is the problem with those two statements as I see it. When Iran is hit (in this case unilaterally by Israel) they will immediately (or simultaneously) launch an all out attack on the oil assets of the gulf region (not only the tankers but the oil assets on the gulf coast of SA and Kuwait if they have the ability (I don't know if they have that ability)). They might even start to plant mines in the Hormuz strait at key locations along the shipping lanes). They own/control 4-5 islands directly in the path of the oil tanker sea lanes. This will obviously necessitate the US to get involved to stop this in one way or another thereby effectivly attacking Iran. So IMO there is no way that Israel does this 'alone'. Also, what if Israel cannot get 'it' done in the first strike which IMO is very probable. It sounds like Iran has some if not several of their nuclear assets way under ground too. Does anybody know the numbers the Israel military has of (conventional) weapons/fighters/ships, etc. Let's also not forgot about Iran's proxies. They will obvioulsy not sit idly by and not 'do' anything. Will they attack Israel (like never before?)? - you can bet your life they will. They also might attack the west in Europe or even here in the USA.
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* I think Ann Barnhardt is more and more right. God help us! * Progressives / Marxists / Communists are many things, STUPID and IMPATIENT are not two of them. * A hot civil war is coming. * And people wonder why I prep!
Reason: forgot to add Hezbolla comment
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Caton
Posts: 31
Incept: 2010-10-24
Neuilly-sur-Marne, France
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Quote:Does Iran have a right to pursue nuclear weapons? As a party to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, Iran does not have a right to pursue nuclear weapons. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Non....However, Iran can withdraw from the NPT. North Korea did in 2003.
Reason: typo
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Eaglewwit
Posts: 6054
Incept: 2007-11-30
SoCal
Banned
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I don't get why a muslim country would destroy the place that holds the second most holy place in their religion.
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Ilikecoffee
Posts: 1562
Incept: 2008-04-17
cold , AK
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Any updates on this situation today?
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You can trust the government, ask any American Indian.
"When people lose everything and they have nothing left to lose, they lose it" Gerald Celente
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Erkme73
Posts: 85
Incept: 2010-10-23
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With all due respect to Karl - I agree nearly 100% with everything you post, but this rhetoric sounds vaguely familiar to the WMD pretext in Iraq...
THEY say Iran is developing triggers... Who is THEY? THEY also said aluminum tubes and yellow-cake uranium from Africa was being used in Iraq. All I'm saying is, I don't trust "THEY" any more than I trust Iran (or Israel). There is too much double-meaning, and ulterior motives at play to take anything at face value.
The idea that anyone must act proactively and strike first only needs to look back at the wild successes of our intelligence agencies, and the cluster-F that is now in three countries. I say, bring the troops home, stop providing aid to ANY country, and let them hash it out.
Bombing their high-value targets (dams, power plants, etc) will only serve to***** off the next generation of American haters. As soon as we leave that part of the world, they'll be too busy destroying themselves to even know where the US can be found on a globe.
We're making a mountain out of a molehill, and given the very recent history of our military industrial complex finding justification to resupply our military with the latest, freshest hardware, I would trust a homeless bum before I gave it ANY credibility.
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Brian_cali
Posts: 182
Incept: 2011-10-22
San Francisco
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That's all the more reason to tell the Israelis to back down. Without US cash, weapons, technology and logistics, they have no "first strike" capability.
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Jpg
Posts: 329
Incept: 2009-03-23
MI
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widgeon wrote.....most people that I know never believed any WMD Meme w/ Iraq The Saddam Hussein regime in Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. They proved they had them; they used them. The only real question can be "Where did they send them?".
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Onion
Posts: 129
Incept: 2008-04-05
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They have a credibility problem. The Iraq WMD porkie (the specific charge for the UK was they had missiles ready to fire at us that would hit in 45 minutes) came from a taxi driver.
And now we're supposed to believe the Iranian Quds Force went into alliance with wildly murderous Los Zetas, with their US agent being a man who can only be described as the Iranian equivalent of The Dude. Maybe they got their inspiration for this story from The Big Lebowski. Hillary Clinton's sniper-dodging antics in Bosnia were straight out of Hollywood.
We're dealing with proven serial liars on the US side.
That's why if we are to discern Iranian intent, we need evidence that does not rely on their authority.
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Eaglewwit
Posts: 6054
Incept: 2007-11-30
SoCal
Banned
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A good war is always good for re-elction.
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