So The World Is Facing Truth On Iran?
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2011-11-06 14:05
by Karl Denninger
in International
Ignore this thread
So The World Is Facing Truth On Iran?
 

The truth can only be denied for so long, then it becomes impossible.  We're pretty-much there when it comes to Iran and its nuclear ambitions:

Why, for example, are Iranian scientists experimenting with triggers that are only used for detonating nuclear weapons? Why are Iranian technicians devoting so much energy to developing a ballistic missile warhead that can carry a nuclear warhead? And why have they designed simulation programmes whose sole purpose is to test nuclear weapons systems?

You don't need a trigger for a reactor.  You also don't need highly-enriched uranium for it either; indeed, HEU makes a reactor much more dangerous since it makes criticality (K >1.0) in the absence of a moderator possible.

Now let's ask the following questions and pay particular attention to the prejudices you apply to your answers: They're important.

  • Does Iran have a right to pursue nuclear weapons?  Remember two things: Their leadership has promised to use them and the United States has used them. Now granted, we used them in a war that the other side started and in a situation where it appeared that we would have to literally slaughter half our opponent's population in order to obtain peace without them.  Does that make us better or worse?  I don't know, but it does put the question on the table in a very uncomfortable fashion.

  • Will Israel hit them anyway, whether we like it or not?  Remember that Israel has been told repeatedly that they would be "wiped off the map" by Iran.  Do they mean it?  I don't know.  But it's not so simple as saying "oh it's just talk" when being wrong means you're all dead. 

We better figure this one out, and fast. And incidentally there's some history on this I've written about before, including the so-called "unwitting" participation of some banks that failed to implement the legally-mandated "know your customer" rules that should have prevented them from "unwittingly" funding these guys.

Never mind that if you asked me as a non-nuclear power to come up with a way to exploit nuclear energy for peaceful purposes I'd tell you that we were going to build LFTRs -- Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors -- which are intrinsically safer in regard to accidents than "conventional" nuclear power.  The "side effect" of such a decision is that it's very hard (read: damned expensive and difficult compared to the uranium fuel cycle) to use that technology to make bombs.

Our issues in the Middle East are directly related to our failed energy policy and the blowjobs we have given to Arab Sheiks so we can "have" their oil.  This in turn has led to disastrously-bad foreign policy needs and an insane amount of spending on defense to support those needs.

We have the technological means to not need any foreign petroleum of any sort and we proved it in the 1960s.  We can literally supply ourselves for 500 years using technology we already know how to exploit.  We've simply refused to do what we have to do, and as such we spent roughly $100 per barrel of imported oil in the form of unnecessary defense spending - spending that could instead have gone and still could go toward building out our energy independence.

That, incidentally, is $350 billion a year.  This is covered in detailed in Leverage and has been written about before on these pages as well.

So have the intentional failures of our government to deal with this problem as it implicates certain "favored" financial entities.

We know who's responsible for this garbage and we also know which governments and which banks and other civilian institutions worldwide enable and permit it to go on.  They're some of our "favored" energy and financial "partners", which is why you don't like this course of action. 

Indeed, as was recently disclosed by The Wall Street Journal, you and Tim Geithner at Treasury are allowing banks who are alleged to have intentionally illegally routed money to Iran to get away with nothing more than mere fines.  Iran, for it's part, has been paying the Taliban "bounties" for the murder of our troops.  Yet these institutions continue to be allowed to profit by being a dealer in US Government debt auctions!  HOW DARE YOU!

Yeah.  It isn't exactly news now, is it?  I wrote that more than a year ago, and what has been done?  Nothing. 

Well, perhaps the right choice is to do nothing and perhaps it's not, but I'll tell you this: Israel doesn't think that it should figure out whether all this is ok when Tel Aviv is turned into a 3,000 degree hellhole.

Can I blame the Israeli government?  Not really.  Our policy failures in the Middle East are indeed uniquely ours; nobody else deserves "credit" for them and they go back a literal sixty years to the end of WWII.  But that we've been dumb doesn't mean that stupidity cannot be corrected -- and more importantly, that it is not without consequence.  In a world where simple, crude nuclear weapons are easily constructed with the only tough part being access to highly-enriched fissile material and complex (read: small and light enough to mount on a moderate-sized missile) ones are not beyond anyone who has the physics knowledge and some computer modeling equipment this is a real problem and one that cannot be met with sticking one's head in the sand.

I find it very difficult to argue that anyone ever has a legitimate reason to preemptively start shooting.  But discernment here is quite difficult indeed; the question is whether such a move is preemptive or not. 

The man who pulls a gun at some point is fair game to shoot before his weapon goes off.  You're not required to wait until you have a hole in your chest to fire upon him -- when it becomes evident that he intends to fire upon you common sense (and unalienable rights) say that you have the right to use force, including deadly force, to stop him.

The key question of discernment here is when that moment arrives in the case of Iran.  A nation that undertakes everything out in the open makes the job easier.  A world where missiles are liquid-fueled and take time to fill and prepare makes the job easier.  But a world in which someone hides their development and possesses solid-rocket missiles that can reach someone they have threatened to blow up is more complex; at exactly what point is intent to use those weapons offensively demonstrated? 

The point at which the missile leaves the ground is too late, and this is the essential problem in regard to Iran that we all face today.

Iran, like all other nations, has the right to defensive weapons, even if their only "use" is the threat that they can use them in retaliation if attacked.  Such a weapon is by definition additive to world stability overall.  But the same weapon that can be used offensively leads us all to a problem in that we must discern where the line is crossed between defensive and offensive presentation of that same device.

This much is certain: In a world where the difference between the two is literally a press of a button apart there's a real problem in determination of intent, and I'm not at all sure how we solve it.

Discussion below (registration required to post)
 

Main Navigation
Full-Text Search & Archives
Archive Access
Get Adobe Flash player





Blogtalk 3:30 CT Mondays
Items To Look At


Discuss The Capital Markets along with daily technical analysis with our Gold Donor program.

Where We Are, Where We're Heading (2013) - The annual 2013 Ticker

Links and Blogroll
Our policy on reciprocal links: Send us an email with your information and why you think your blog or news site would make a good addition - in most cases reciprocal link requests will be granted.
Seeking Alpha Certified
Legal Disclaimer

The content on this site is provided without any warranty, express or implied. All opinions expressed on this site are those of the author and may contain errors or omissions.

NO MATERIAL HERE CONSTITUTES "INVESTMENT ADVICE" NOR IS IT A RECOMMENDATION TO BUY OR SELL ANY FINANCIAL INSTRUMENT, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO STOCKS, OPTIONS, BONDS OR FUTURES.

The author may have a position in any company or security mentioned herein. Actions you undertake as a consequence of any analysis, opinion or advertisement on this site are your sole responsibility.

Looking for "The Best of Market Ticker"? Check out
Ticker Classics.

Visit the forum to discuss this and other investing-related topics; see the FAQ on the forum for information about Gold Donor status including access to our technical analysis video server.

Market charts, when present, used with permission of TD Ameritrade/ThinkOrSwim Inc. Neither TD Ameritrade or ThinkOrSwim have reviewed, approved or disapproved any content herein.

Market Ticker content may be reproduced or excerpted online provided full attribution is given and the original article source is linked to. Please contact Karl Denninger for reprint permission in other media.

Submissions may be sent "over the transom" to The Editor at any time. To be considered for publication your submission must include full and correct contact information and be related to an economic or political matter of the day. All submissions become the property of The Market Ticker.

Leads on stories of current economic and political interest are always welcome. Our fax tip line is 850-897-9364; please include contact information with your transmission.

 
Comments.......
User: Not logged on
Login Register Top Blog Top Blog Topics FAQ
Showing Page 1 of 4  First1234Last
User Info So The World Is Facing Truth On Iran? in forum [Market-Ticker]
Widgeon
Posts: 13481
Incept: 2007-08-30
Green
Region formerly known as the United States
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Iran clearly intends to have Nukes: Not debatable. Also not debatable is that we've led them there with our policies ... what a crappy situation.

Abn0rmal
Posts: 9261
Incept: 2009-01-10
Green A True American Patriot!
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Even though he holds the title of "President", as far as I can tell Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has as much actual power as Joe Biden does. I think it's more likely that any rhetoric coming from him represents propaganda rather than the intentions of the actual decision makers.
Widgeon
Posts: 13481
Incept: 2007-08-30
Green
Region formerly known as the United States
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
I can go w/ that.

I'm every bit, if not more, concerned about the Paki weapons and their "security."

Zzt
Posts: 3034
Incept: 2007-06-26
Green
Glendale az
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
The real question to ask about Iran is , " Will a theocracy in Iran prove its insanity , and thereby committing suicide , by attacking another country with atomic weapons ? "

An offensive use of a bomb would insure their violent demise. ( and it would not necessarily come from the U.S. )

My gut tells me that Iran is not that self destructive..........and if they are there will be no Iran to worry about after the fact.

Problem solved.
Onion
Posts: 129
Incept: 2008-04-05

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Remember that Israel has been told repeatedly that they would be "wiped off the map" by Iran.

This was said repeatedly? By who? I've heard plenty of western media regurgitating this info. But is it actually true, or the same sort of BS they're playing with the 'Occupy' protestors?

Will Israel hit them anyway, whether we like it or not?

They may do. Whether it's because they genuinely believe Iranian intent, or are simply using that as a pretext I don't know.

I think the insane military overstretch and financial support for Israel (which finances a much better standard of social services and welfare, while these things get cut back severely in the USA) is going to invite a big backlash.

The objective evidence seems to be that nukes prevent invasion/ wars by America (though Pakistan is stretching that a bit). So it's a rational response to want nukes.

That said, the Iranians in charge are as bad as the Israelis in charge. I'm a Brit, but found it wildly offensive to see Congress cheer Netanyahu to the rafters even as he insulted the Office of the President.
Flappingeagle
Posts: 1224
Incept: 2011-04-14

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Short of being able to read minds and see the future, there is no way to tell what someones intentions are or what their future actions will be. The Iranian president may be just saying what he thinks his own people want to hear and nothing more or, he could really be planning an attack.

My first thought, and I do say first, is to use back channels to let Iran know that if they nuke anyone we will utterly destory their country and not follow it up with any aid. If their neighbors want to invade afterward and carve up their country that will be the Iranian's problem.

Bombing every dam and every powerplant to where it is beyond repair would go a long way toward crippling Iran.

Could also let them know that we will not be bombing the Kurdish north as they will be encouraged to leave Iran...

----------
Here are my predictions for everyone to see:
S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu.
"You can't build a house of cards on a shaking table." - Tony Johns
The January 2015 AMZN put at $130 (cost $4.25) will be a winner.

Reason: added a thought
Brian_cali
Posts: 182
Incept: 2011-10-22
Green
San Francisco
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
We scared the crap out of them. It's that simple.

Our president at the time declared an "Axis of Evil" that included Iraq, Iran and North Korea. He inferred that the US could strike and "take 'em out" at any time.

Then he invaded Iraq and toppled the regime there. Lo and behold, Iran and North Korea have now developed nuclear weapons (or are on their way to doing so, in Iran's case).

Not a surprise.

Nukes are expensive and difficult to maintain. Even coercive dictatorships without concern for their people would likely prefer not to have them because of those two factors. The primary reason they're developing them is deterrent. The US/NATO intervention in Libya has likely only hastened the urgency in Tehran to build these.

The whole idea is to make an Iraq/Libya situation unthinkable to NATO in Iran.

As for Israel launching a pre-emptive attack, I think the Secretary of State (or barring her, the president) needs to grow a pair. The government in Jerusalem has clearly decided that it can unilaterally dictate policy to the USA, and has done outrageous things like tread on the toes of a NATO ally (Turkey) and expect the US to side unconditionally against Turkey (and arguably against its NATO obligations).

It should be communicated, in no uncertain terms, that if the Israelis launch a pre-emptive strike on Iran, they're on their own. Iran is no cakewalk war -- it's no Iraq or Libya. It has a large population, challenging topography, a modern and well-equipped military with an advanced air force, and strong diplomatic relations with China and Russia. A pre-emptive strike could trigger WW III rather easily -- especially if China and/or Russia decide that their energy supplies and strategic interests are threatened by a US intervention there.

A ground war would also be bloody and endless.

Not a good idea. We should accept that the policies of the last ten years have been abject failures, and make course corrections now, in my view.
Mortgageguymn
Posts: 1561
Incept: 2009-03-09
Green
North Coast
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
When did Netanyahu insult the Office of the President? I thought all he did was snub Obama - a guy who could use a good snubbing or three. When it comes to outrageous quotes from Iranian leaders, people can make plenty of disingenuous arguments trying to erase the quotes in question. One such back & forth is here: http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2007/1.... Most honest people would come away with the clear understanding that Iran has seriously rattled its saber for along time regarding Israel. The question is whether the threat of national annihilation can deter Iran from striking Israel first. Maybe. Maybe not. The time may eventually come when Iran (and other fanatical Islamic entities) can only be deterred by threatening something other than a nation or two. If the only thing they respect is Islam, perhaps they can only be deterred by threatening the holiest sites in Islam, even though they be in another country. The Hadj is one of the five pillars of Islam, for example. What if there were no more Mecca? God forbid it ever comes to that, but it's not inconceivable. In the meantime, I hope Israel's reputed 200 nuclear warheads can remain safely sheathed while deterring any WMD attacks.

Halfbrite
Posts: 2459
Incept: 2008-10-13
Green
Arizona via California
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
This is an important policy question. Here's my $.02.

We should take no action - none - zip - nada - against Iran. No threats, no sanctions, just ignore them.

If Israel blows them up, that's Israel's business, not ours. If they do, we immediately cut all aid of any type to Israel, and sever our "relationship" with them - let Israel stand (or fall) alone.

Announce our new policy publicly, with fanfare, on the world stage.

Problem solved, next issue.

----------
"That which cannot continue, will not continue. Brace for impact!"
Brian_cali
Posts: 182
Incept: 2011-10-22
Green
San Francisco
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Quote:
When did Netanyahu insult the Office of the President? I thought all he did was snub Obama - a guy who could use a good snubbing or three.


A large proportion of the Israeli government's budget comes from the US taxpayer. Regardless of who is elected in the office of president and whether or not I agree with him, I expect vassal states of the USA living off of my tax dollars to show respect, deference and subordination to the president of the United States.

If he wants to snub and act independent, do so without any of my tax money.

Quote:
If Israel blows them up, that's Israel's business, not ours.


I quite agree. The Israeli government has long assumed that it is a proxy (and indeed a superior partner) in US relations. There's a significant contingent in the US polity that will demand and deliver anything they want, and the Likud leadership's open contempt for US government leaders is well documented.

I'm tired of being called a "bad Jew" for not supporting the Israeli government's policies. Oh well. Jerusalem needs to be aware that relations are typically bilateral, and that when most of your defense and government budget is provided by a foreign power, you defer in ALL areas to that foreign power or lose the funding.

The Israeli government needs to learn balance -- that it is one actor in the region, not the "dominant actor" that can force its will on every other country through application of superior firepower by the USA. Until that policy change filters into the Knesset, we'll continue being stuck in a brinksmanship stance.

Reason: Added an additional reply
Onelegged
Posts: 265
Incept: 2009-11-13

NW Colorado
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
What ever course of action or inaction that we choose we can't afford to be wrong. This fact only makes any choice contemplated more difficult.

How reliable is the intelligence against Iran? Remember that Saddam had WMD and was poised to destroy us.

----------
The light at the end of this tunnel is a train.
Widgeon
Posts: 13481
Incept: 2007-08-30
Green
Region formerly known as the United States
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
... generally, most people that I know never believed any WMD Meme w/ Iraq ... they all knew it was just "the story" that was being used and no one was fooled.

Howardnyc
Posts: 132
Incept: 2007-11-01
Gold
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
when north korea successfully exploded a couple of bombs, american presidents sure stopped talking so much mess about them.

just sayin'.

iran dropping a nuke on tel aviv is a suicide attack. this is about as assured as anything in the future of international events can be. having nukes is a wonderful deterrent.

if iran credibly announces one morning, 'hey, we have a nuke', the odds of an israeli first strike plummet like mf global.

i am amazed israel has not yet pulled the trigger. particularly as they were successful in doing the same against iraq in what, 1978? and then in syria a few years ago.

i am a huge supporter of israel (disclosure). i really hope they stay cool, and recognize they are gonna have to live in a world with a muslim nuke capability (in addition to pakistan). if not imminently with iran, someday soon with another nation. attempting to prevent this eventuality will fail. attempting to delay this with first strikes has passed the point of positive returns or outcomes. i think they were damn lucky with syria, and i doubt that would've gone w/o triggering a big war in the post-muhbarak era.

but aside from diplomacy, this is not our (the usa's) fight.

----------
kd told me (and i believe him) that
"We (Americans) deserve a Depression."
Stanowen
Posts: 160
Incept: 2008-10-02

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
In light of Iraq, Afghanistan, and the global economic woes, I seriously doubt that anyone has an appetite for another war.

I question whether Israel can even garner the support for a preemptive strike on Iran.

If they do, America needs to let it be known that we won't swing in behind them and clean up the mess.

The bank is empty and so are our hearts, we don't have the money or resolve to support them.
Onelegged
Posts: 265
Incept: 2009-11-13

NW Colorado
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
No one that (that I can think of) I know believed that Iraq had WMD either. This fact did not prevent and invasion by the U.S. however.

----------
The light at the end of this tunnel is a train.
Sean
Posts: 1765
Incept: 2009-04-21

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Quote:
It should be communicated, in no uncertain terms, that if the Israelis launch a pre-emptive strike on Iran, they're on their own


Quote:
America needs to let it be known that we won't swing in behind them and clean up the mess.


This is the problem with those two statements as I see it.

When Iran is hit (in this case unilaterally by Israel) they will immediately (or simultaneously) launch an all out attack on the oil assets of the gulf region (not only the tankers but the oil assets on the gulf coast of SA and Kuwait if they have the ability (I don't know if they have that ability)). They might even start to plant mines in the Hormuz strait at key locations along the shipping lanes). They own/control 4-5 islands directly in the path of the oil tanker sea lanes.

This will obviously necessitate the US to get involved to stop this in one way or another thereby effectivly attacking Iran.

So IMO there is no way that Israel does this 'alone'.

Also, what if Israel cannot get 'it' done in the first strike which IMO is very probable. It sounds like Iran has some if not several of their nuclear assets way under ground too.

Does anybody know the numbers the Israel military has of (conventional) weapons/fighters/ships, etc.

Let's also not forgot about Iran's proxies. They will obvioulsy not sit idly by and not 'do' anything. Will they attack Israel (like never before?)? - you can bet your life they will. They also might attack the west in Europe or even here in the USA.

----------
* I think Ann Barnhardt is more and more right. God help us!
* Progressives / Marxists / Communists are many things, STUPID and IMPATIENT are not two of them.
* A hot civil war is coming.
* And people wonder why I prep!

Reason: forgot to add Hezbolla comment
Caton
Posts: 31
Incept: 2010-10-24
Green
Neuilly-sur-Marne, France
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Quote:
Does Iran have a right to pursue nuclear weapons?


As a party to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, Iran does not have a right to pursue nuclear weapons.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Non....

However, Iran can withdraw from the NPT. North Korea did in 2003.

Reason: typo
Eaglewwit
Posts: 6054
Incept: 2007-11-30
Green
SoCal
Banned
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
I don't get why a muslim country would destroy the place that holds the second most holy place in their religion.
Ilikecoffee
Posts: 1562
Incept: 2008-04-17
Green
cold , AK
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Any updates on this situation today?

----------
You can trust the government, ask any American Indian.

"When people lose everything and they have nothing left to lose, they lose it" Gerald Celente
Erkme73
Posts: 85
Incept: 2010-10-23

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
With all due respect to Karl - I agree nearly 100% with everything you post, but this rhetoric sounds vaguely familiar to the WMD pretext in Iraq...

THEY say Iran is developing triggers... Who is THEY? THEY also said aluminum tubes and yellow-cake uranium from Africa was being used in Iraq. All I'm saying is, I don't trust "THEY" any more than I trust Iran (or Israel). There is too much double-meaning, and ulterior motives at play to take anything at face value.

The idea that anyone must act proactively and strike first only needs to look back at the wild successes of our intelligence agencies, and the cluster-F that is now in three countries. I say, bring the troops home, stop providing aid to ANY country, and let them hash it out.

Bombing their high-value targets (dams, power plants, etc) will only serve to***** off the next generation of American haters. As soon as we leave that part of the world, they'll be too busy destroying themselves to even know where the US can be found on a globe.

We're making a mountain out of a molehill, and given the very recent history of our military industrial complex finding justification to resupply our military with the latest, freshest hardware, I would trust a homeless bum before I gave it ANY credibility.
Brian_cali
Posts: 182
Incept: 2011-10-22
Green
San Francisco
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
That's all the more reason to tell the Israelis to back down. Without US cash, weapons, technology and logistics, they have no "first strike" capability.
Jpg
Posts: 329
Incept: 2009-03-23

MI
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
widgeon wrote..
...most people that I know never believed any WMD Meme w/ Iraq
The Saddam Hussein regime in Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.

They proved they had them; they used them.

The only real question can be "Where did they send them?".
Onion
Posts: 129
Incept: 2008-04-05

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
They have a credibility problem. The Iraq WMD porkie (the specific charge for the UK was they had missiles ready to fire at us that would hit in 45 minutes) came from a taxi driver.

And now we're supposed to believe the Iranian Quds Force went into alliance with wildly murderous Los Zetas, with their US agent being a man who can only be described as the Iranian equivalent of The Dude. Maybe they got their inspiration for this story from The Big Lebowski. Hillary Clinton's sniper-dodging antics in Bosnia were straight out of Hollywood.

We're dealing with proven serial liars on the US side.

That's why if we are to discern Iranian intent, we need evidence that does not rely on their authority.
Eaglewwit
Posts: 6054
Incept: 2007-11-30
Green
SoCal
Banned
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
A good war is always good for re-elction.
Login Register Top Blog Top Blog Topics FAQ
Showing Page 1 of 4  First1234Last