Groupon: Another Pets.Com
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2011-11-03 09:04
by Karl Denninger
in Company Specific
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Groupon: Another Pets.Com
 

There's crazy and then there's really crazy.

If you're buying Groupon's IPO you're in the latter camp.

Bloomberg claims:

“In terms of its progress toward a profitable enterprise, I think that’s a huge stretch,” Sorrentino said of the comparison between the two companies. For Groupon, “the beast is growing faster than its revenue stream, and you may be chasing profitability for a while.”

A while?

Try forever on for size.

Groupon, for the uninitiated, sells "Groupons" which are online coupons for a given service or product.  The retailer "sells" them to Groupon (sorta) and Groupon "retails" them.  You, as a consumer, buy them as the end user.

So who wins and who loses here?

Like paper coupons a Groupon has a "use by" date.  They're attempting to leverage social media to "widely distribute" the Groupons to consumers, and for this they get a piece of the action.  The merchant effectively pays a "vig" to Groupon for running the distribution system and collecting the money; once a Groupon is redeemed the merchant gets the paid price less a discount.

From the consumer's point of view these are more like a prepaid purchase of some good or service.  Let's say the deal is "50% off" and the price is $20.  The "regular sticker price" is $40 in your store.

You, the merchant, are selling a "regular" $40 product or service for $20.  But in fact it's not $20; Groupon takes a piece of the "sale price" of $20 as well, so you might receive $18.  And you receive it late: The consumer buys the Groupon from Groupon.  This goes to Groupon's balance sheet as "cash" and the payment to the merchant is an accrued liability.  The merchant gets paid only when the groupons are redeemed.

Essentially Groupon "lives" on the float.  And that float, if you look at the S-1, is getting bigger as a percentage as the company has grown.  That is, in my opinion, bad, because it means the firm is surviving on two things, neither of which is likely to continue:

  • Non-redemption.  That is, the consumer buys and then doesn't use.  This is "free money" for Groupon but it came out of the consumer's pocket.  It is unlikely to continue to do so, and the higher price of the service or good the more-likely the coupon is to be redeemed.

  • Delays in payment.  Groupon "aggregates" these coupons and pays merchants when the aggregation reaches a given level.  They have the use of the money in the meantime.  That's nice for them, not so nice for the merchant who just delivered a good or service they didn't get paid for in the present tense!  Realize that the merchant's usual operations either pay him immediately (cash) or the next day (credit card settlement.)  Now he's taking duration risk and he's also an unsecured creditor of Groupon yet the good or service was delivered to the customer!

I don't like this one bit as a prospective merchant - especially the second.  I sell at a discount, presumably at or near a loss, and then have to wait to get paid too?  How does this work?  Well, it might, but that would depend on two things:

  1. Can you profitably sell at the discounted price less expenses?  Usually the answer is "no."

  2. Does the customer come back and buy again at full price?  If not, you lose big: You not only lose on the original transaction but your "customer good-will building" was for nothing, as the consumer buys once and doesn't return at the full price.  And it was that second part - "on the come", for which Groupon is not responsible - that makes the deal work.

What do I think of the model?  I think it sucks.

As a consumer I'll buy a $20 pizza for $10 (one of the deals being offered right now in my area.)  But the entire reason I'll go to that pizza place is that the pizza is $10 -- at $20 I'm not a customer!

In this particular case the merchant gets nothing for their trouble except a guaranteed loss and delayed payment!  It's not a "loss leader" as I won't come back without the discount, it's a loss maker.

How prevalent is my view on this?  That's the problem - nobody knows.  But it's the key to the entire scheme, because what I see when I look at Groupon is a lot of 40, 50, 60% discounts - which sound ok but are big enough discounts that they're likely to attract people who will buy only because of the deal.  As soon as the deal disappears so does the customer.

I don't see the business case for this company as I don't see the sell-through on a consistent, forward basis.  Consumers will always take something for free: The store willing to give away steak will give away every piece of it they have!  That's not the question: Will the people then come back and pay full price for the second slab of meat?

I think the answer is "no", and if I'm right on that then the actual value of the Groupon service is zero, and thus their stock is also a zero.

It's just a matter of time.

Disclosure: Oh, what a tasty morsel of a short this looks to be..... Netflix on steroids!

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User Info Groupon: Another Pets.Com in forum [Market-Ticker]
Archimedes
Posts: 10
Incept: 2010-06-10

NYC
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They should have sold to Google for 6 Billion when they had the chance. Anyone who buys this stock deservers to lose their shirt. god, I am so tired of this market..or what is left of it. With Merkozy trying to push G-pap out to avoid the people of Greece actually deciding their fate.

I have been waiting 4 years now for the lies and fraud to stop. Looks like the bankers are in full control and I am gonna have to wait even longer. Sigh...
Lodgerhead
Posts: 559
Incept: 2008-08-26
Green
NC
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So I can assume we won't be seeing any Groupons for Ticker Forum gold memberships?
Debtpie
Posts: 534
Incept: 2009-12-17

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"Non-redemption. That is, the consumer buys and then doesn't use. This is "free money" for Groupon but it came out of the consumer's pocket. It is unlikely to continue to do so, and the higher price of the service or good the more-likely the coupon is to be redeemed."

I guess that explains why all the Groupons I've been offered lately are lame "$10 worth of food for $5".

Why go through the hassle of using Groupon to save $5 when those same coupons come in the mail, the free "shopper" paper and are often available at the businesses website or facebook page...

The really good, worth buying, Groupons are fewer and further between than ever...

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A Leader, or an Opportunist? "A leader has the capacity of vision, the ability to see where things are headed before people in general see those things." Mitt Romney --- DebtPie's definition: a leader decides where "things" should head and "leads" us there.

Thesev
Posts: 1383
Incept: 2007-10-30
Gold
Louisiana
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I don't see any difference between this scheme and those coupon books that were being peddled years ago (and may still be). Just the "online" angle makes it look new.


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The reason the republic isn't working is that it's being run as a democracy.

It doesn't matter who you are, or who you Think you are, the Math is Going to Win.
Ajamesshaw
Posts: 20
Incept: 2011-10-16
Green
United States
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Just saw this Etrade 2001 Super Bowl ad for the first time yesterday, it was mentioned in a blog discussion about Groupon. A chimp surveying the remains of the dot com bust:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONZFkqzuM....

A classic I must say, even if it took me ten years to see it.
Rdgdawg
Posts: 165
Incept: 2010-04-30

WI... but no brats or cheese...
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How timely KD... look what I was just reading...

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/groupon....

Let's cash out...

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I work hard because millions on welfare depend on me!
Profpangloss
Posts: 13
Incept: 2011-10-26

Belvidere NJ
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Good analysis Gen.

Give this one a few months to let the green shoe do what it will and it's time to short.
Ben
Posts: 6210
Incept: 2009-10-09
Silver
The Distant, Glorious, Past
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"They should have sold to Google for 6 Billion when they had the chance. "

Think like a Criminal.

With a market-wide IPO they get much more than 6 billion, get to fleece the IPO investors and early holders, sell their shares and options and watch as it plummets to $1 in 3 years or fewer.

What a tasty short.

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"Why are you going to learn French?"
"Because I'm going to France," says Joe.
"I'm from the future. You should go to China."
Wineaux
Posts: 533
Incept: 2009-03-23
Green A True American Patriot!
pure Liquid pleasure
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Quote:
Does the customer come back and buy again at full price?


I will not and it’s even worse than you state. I’ve used Groupon exactly once to purchase vitamins at GNC. When I picked up the vitamins I signed up for GNCs e-mail list and by doing so all their promotions now are sent to my inbox thus I no longer need Groupon. I could go a step further and “like” GNC on Facebook and also receive promotions. So essentially, Groupon has a single revenue event the first time around. Each subsequent transaction is directly with the merchant and without Groupon.

It’s going to be fun to watch this one.smiley

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What wine goes with unemployment?
Striker754
Posts: 671
Incept: 2009-07-09

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So it IPOs on Friday, How long until options show up? Will we see options available by the middle of next week?

Oh and the insiders have already found their bagholders:

As investors continue to scrutinize the nascent firm’s financials, it is worth noting that insiders and early investors have cashed out about $943 million out of a $1.12 billion total raised in venture funding.

Aztrader
Posts: 6650
Incept: 2007-09-10
Green
Scottsdale, AZ
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I believe the hit to the merchant is 50% of the sales price. That is total desparation................
Ress
Posts: 3
Incept: 2009-09-11

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I use Groupon. I now also use other sites that do the same thing. I don't care which site I'm using, only what the deal is. Any company that has advertising sales people calling on retailers can do exactly the same as Groupon and is now doing it. This includes the local media such as tv, radio, and newspapers, existing coupon/advertising publishers, and your uncle harry. Google is also doing exactly the same thing now.

Goodbye to any margins which may have existed, goodbye to any loyalty from merchants or users. And goodbye to any money in Groupon stock.

Bagbalm
Posts: 4262
Incept: 2009-03-19
Green
Just North of Detroit
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It's worse than you think because I've had them credit my account back for Groupons I had bought when the business went under before I could redeem it.

This whole concept depends on a declining market with desperate businesses trying to cover declining volume and shrinking margins.

My wife and I have tried several restaurants that we now go to regularly - however we found many of the businesses had problems that no Groupon or any other promotion could fix.

As an example - I used a Groupon for $200 off prescription glasses to get a pair of prescription sunglasses.
The company has no evening hours and very limited Sat. hours.
When I walked in my first thought was this company needs a dress code. It was all middle aged ladies who looked like they were dressed to go grocery shopping.
I was very specific in what I wanted - I wanted the darkest AMBER Transitions lens made.
The glasses took a WEEK to be made and arrive. They were GRAY.
They wanted to argue that Transition doesn't make amber lenses. The amber ones are called Drivewear BY Transitions. This is like trying to deliver a Chevrolet Impala to a man who has ordered a Malibu and saying a Malibu is BY Chevrolet so that isn't what he ordered...
The second pair they made had a big scratch right in the center of the left lens.
The third pair they got right, but they were peeved with me by then and tried to just hand the glasses to me at the front desk without offering to sit me down to examine them and have them fitted to my face.
No amount of attracting new business can save this company.
Nashvillian
Posts: 165
Incept: 2008-12-01
Green
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"As a consumer I'll buy a $20 pizza for $10 (one of the deals being offered right now in my area.) But the entire reason I'll go to that pizza place is that the pizza is $10 -- at $20 I'm not a customer!"

I had a local restaraunteur tell me almost the exact same thing: NO repeat business from Groupon users. He thought it was a concept in decline.


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Each gun invited into a school for protection carries a risk of an unintended death. For any one weapon the risk may be inconsequential. Before deciding to place 500,000+ guns in 130,000 schools, the risk must be calculated.
Aaugusti
Posts: 4
Incept: 2010-10-01

Michigan
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A client of mine owns a restaurant and used Groupn's services once.

The deal was $15 for $30 in food.

Of the $15 Groupon collected Groupon kept $7.50 and the client kept $7.50.

Their experience was the same as described above. The new "customers" came in and bought the lowest margin items on the menu, spent right up to the $30 Groupon that they had, and never came back.
Ben
Posts: 6210
Incept: 2009-10-09
Silver
The Distant, Glorious, Past
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"Their experience was the same as described above. The new "customers" came in and bought the lowest margin items on the menu, spent right up to the $30 Groupon that they had, and never came back."

Friends in WDC reported the precise same thing in Feb.

They also wait to the last minute to reserve a table, call in mass, spend only the Groupon amount, maybe $2 more, do not tip, are the cheapest of the cheap, don't want to pay the tax out of the Groupon, never come back and want to redeem it AFTER it expires.

They don't use Groupon anymore.

Revenue with negative cashflow and no new customer relationship is not worth it.

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"Why are you going to learn French?"
"Because I'm going to France," says Joe.
"I'm from the future. You should go to China."
Spazznout
Posts: 1704
Incept: 2009-04-15
Green
Columbus, Ohio
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I own a small Carpet/Tile/Air Duct cleaning business. A Groupon telemarketer was trying to sell me on the scam earlier this year. I advertise $99 for a certain service. I avoid all the bait and switch low ball pricing games as it only hurts your reputation and chances of turning a lifetime customer. The only coupon or savings I offer is 10% to seniors and Military. It is a true 10% discount that hits my bottom line on a given job.

Anyways, they wanted me to run a ad with them and it was too say $149 marked half off for $75 for the same service I normally price and advertise at the $99 price point. This is part of there game. Then they want to keep half of that $75 for their efforts, leaving me with a rock bottom bargain basement searching customer, and only 35$ in my hand, which is a loss. These customers never opt for additional or upgraded services, never have additional work done. Naw, they say, just give me my coupon, that's all I want. They will not be a repeat as next time they need my services they will again search for the bargain basement deal quality be damned. Nor will they refer me and if they do its gonna be one of their bargain basement, quality be damned friends. I experienced this phenomena when I was employed by a small bizz, doing what I am doing on my own now, When the owner of that company ran a bottom barrel Ad. He only ran it once.

Groupon is such a bad deal for small service companies. I have heard many horror stories from owners loosing their asses on Groupon and ending up with nothing to show in return. If you pay attention you will generally only see a small business run an add 1 time. The sad thing is Groupon preys on new and small businesses with owners who are inexperienced and cannot foresee the problems caused by raking the bottom of a market or take the time to do the math to see if it makes sense. The sales reps try to get you worked up by focusing their sales speech on the number on NEW customers you will get VS what is my profit/loss gonna be on running an ad with them.

see Johns post below......after reading it.....think how easily you could destroy a competitor with these new rules. You open yourself up to destroying your business by getting involved with these games

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"In a land without Rule of Law even a sane man who desecrates the state must be made to look crazy. "
Rubicon Jan. 9, 2011 blog post.
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable."

Johnjones_20
Posts: 12
Incept: 2009-11-19

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Aaugusti is exactly right. Groupon keeps 50% of the groupon sale price. Living social (a groupon look a like) does a 60/40 split, where the restaurant keeps 60% and living social gets 40%.
Also, the groupons I've purchased recently have a new disclaimer that the groupon can be used for the purchase price forever.
For example, I pay $20 for a $40 restaurant groupon that has an expiration date of 12/31/11. But I can use the groupon as a $20 gift card with no expiration after 12/31/11.
Npvcf
Posts: 2
Incept: 2011-09-16

Greenville, Wisc
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KD's pizza example is perfect. I bought a Groupon for a local pizza chain. $20 for $10! Hurray. Except when I presented the Groupon at purchase, the price of the pizza suddenly went off special to full price. Saving me a total of $2 off menu. Hey, $2 is $2. But not $10. And certainly not worth the constant Groupon SPåM. Groupon fully refunded me. Kudos to them. I canceled and removed myself from Groupon.
Lumpeninvestor
Posts: 2344
Incept: 2007-10-16
Gold
98072, USSA
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Wife got a groupon, $10 for a santa photo. Never used it. So instead of saving $10 off the $20 price, it cost us $10. This was the first time I'd ever heard of groupon, and I advised her to never again do that.

Since then I've see a few groupon complaints hit the news (bento box one, and a housecleaning one) which confirmed my suspicion that it was not a good idea for the vendors either. In these cases, the vendor was overwhelmed with coupon holders and was not able to delivery quality service, thus killing any marketing boost from the deal.

Oh, and I owned pets.com stock back then, thus my TF Login ID. :)

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Distributing insolvency only destroys the last remaining islands of solvency in a bankrupt world. - Charles Hugh Smith 8/23/2012
Etz
Posts: 13890
Incept: 2007-06-26
Silver
LA
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This is not about a "business". It's about Groupon management and cockroach underwriters cashing on the hype.

Anyone catch this story? http://www.businessinsider.com/oops-grou....

Obviously simply screwing their customers is not enough. smiley

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Legal chicanery and beneficent darkness are the banker's stoutest allies - F.Pecora.

Ripley
Posts: 96
Incept: 2010-09-26

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Why pay to get a discount? That's the thing that has stumped me about Groupon on the customer side. The more barriers that you raise to getting a "deal", the less likely people are to take the offer.

I have no idea how long it takes to get delivery of a Groupon, but it does work against the impulse buyer, who is often your most profitable customer.

The local pizza place (actually a chain of about four locally owned stores) where I used to live offered 10% off gift cards. I was a regular customer, so I bought one for $50. That's the kind of discount for future business that makes sense. As things turned out, I lost the discount because I left about $5 on the card when I moved out of the area.
Blackswan
Posts: 5564
Incept: 2007-11-06
Gold
Just outside of Philly
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I signed up just to check out the deals months ago. I canceled it a week later. I found it to be mostly for crap I don't use or need. The email spam was annoying as well.

http://strikegently.com/2011/03/****-gro....

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Gantww
Posts: 545
Incept: 2011-04-22
Green
Nashville, TN
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So, how do I go about shorting these guys? I've never tried it and don't understand how to go about it. I'm not gambling any money I can't afford to lose, but I'd like to understand the process. How much would it cost me to do it?
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