OWS (And Everyone Else): Pay Attention To Greece
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2011-10-16 14:06
by Karl Denninger
in Editorial
Ignore this thread
OWS (And Everyone Else): Pay Attention To Greece
 

The politicians are now reduced to begging:

(Reuters) - Prime Minister George Papandreou pleaded for patience from Greeks growing increasingly angry with relentless austerity efforts, telling a newspaper his government was struggling to prevent a financial "catastrophe."In an interview with the weekly Proto Thema newspaper, Papandreou said the government was fighting to stop Greece defaulting on its debts but the road ahead was hard.

"I would very much like to guarantee everyone an immediate solution, a better life today," he told the newspaper in an interview which hit newsstands Saturday.

"I would be the happiest man in the world if I could do that but I can't and I have a duty to be honest and tell this truth to every Greek citizen," he said.

Finally, the truth.

Here are some realities for everyone to think about and (hopefully) understand:

Government cannot expand faster than domestic economic output does.  That is, if you want government to get bigger, the economy must get bigger to support it.

Growth in the economy must come from economic surplus, not borrowing.  Economic surplus is what you have left after you (1) labor, and (2) pay for all of the things you must buy with that labor.  Whether your payment is direct (e.g. you pick strawberries and get to keep X% of your output) or indirect (you are paid a wage in "dollars" and then spend that money) the fact remains that economic growth can, in the long run, only come from economic surplus.

The process by which economic surplus is turned into economic expansion is called capital formation.  Capital formation is not borrowing; borrowed funds are fungible (that is, interchangeable) with formed capital but they are not the same thing.  Only capital formation produces lasting prosperity.  Replacing formed capital with borrowed funds produces bubbles; these are inherently pyramid schemes in both concept and execution and thus must eventually burst.

Due to inefficiency in all things, including the markets, when a bubble bursts you're worse off than if it had never occurred in the first place.  This is the principle known simply as "there's no such thing as a free lunch."  It's true in thermodynamics and it's also true in economics.

Trade deficits are self-correcting phenomena without explicit and intentional acts by the government and monetary authority to cover up their natural effects.  Specifically, a trade deficit causes capital to drain from the deficit nation to the surplus nation.  This in turn makes their currency balance shift and shuts down the cycle all on its own.  Only intentional and willful distortion, in this case by injecting "credit" to replace capital, allows it to continue.  Yes, the Chinese are responsible for what has happened in this regard with offshoring, but so are our politicians and Federal Reserve!  Any actual means of addressing this problem must include all guilty parties.

Politicians turn to producing bubbles when they want to promise you something they cannot pay for via voluntary taxation.  And make no mistake on this point: All taxation is voluntary.  Greece is showing us this fact in stark relief.  The people can withdraw their consent to taxation any time they'd like.  Sure, they have to go on a general strike to do so, which is the inhibiting factor - it results in personal pain.  But it's the correct, non-violent and legal means to tell the government to stuff it when it comes to their tax policies.

There are only two means to compel a government to act when it becomes co-opted by minority interests, such as what happened with the bailouts, banks and similar foolishness.  One is lawful and the other is not.  The unlawful means comes through violence.  In the "common name" we call these "riots" when they're localized and small (e.g. looting, etc.)  When they're not we call them "Revolution", and the legal term for inciting one is "Sedition."  The key point to remember about the latter is that on a historical basis you have a very low probability of success through revolution -- most of the time what comes out of a revolution is worse than what you started with.  Keep that in mind before you go pining for it, because you are much more likely to get a Hitler out the other end of that process than a George Washington, and the outcome is generally not under your control.

The lawful means of compelling a government to act is called a "General Strike."  It is a refusal to work, and it is effective because it is work that is taxable.  If you perform none then there is nothing to tax; ergo the government's finances collapse.  This is what is happening in Greece.

Beware, however, that if you demand that which is impossible, you won't get it - no matter whether you press that demand through a General Strike or through unlawful means.  That's simply because that which cannot happen won't. 

There is no such thing as a Unicorn that craps out pretty colored candies.

In the case at hand in the United States we have a government on both sides of the aisle that has made promises that are mathematically impossible to keep.  That same government conspired with The Fed and with Wall Street to blow a series of bubbles that led you to believe, over the space of 30 years, that you could have more than you can actually pay for with your work output.  This claim was a lie and it infested virtually every area of our nation.  Housing, education, medical care - all were used as a means to blow up the bubble to larger and larger dimension whenever it threatened to collapse and expose the frauds.

These claims were active frauds as anyone who examined them with any sort of critical eye toward the mathematical realities of the claims knew they were crap and could never happen. 

As just one example of dozens the claim that "house prices are expected to increase 10% a year for the foreseeable future" was interpreted by many as "it's safe to finance the purchase of a house and then withdraw the claimed increase in value as this will go on forever" (see the foreseeable future words for justification in the common man's reliance.) 

The lie is the mathematical impossibility of this.  A $150,000 house that appreciated at that rate for 10 years would be worth $389,000.  But over 30 years that same $150,000 house would be "worth" $2,617,410.  Nobody ever asked the obvious question: Exactly how was a "middle class" person going to afford to buy a $389,000 house, say much less a $2,617,410 one?

They couldn't, of course, but this was the lie that was run.

In College education land the same lie was run.  It led to an outrageous increase in college costs that dramatically outstripped earnings for degree-holding graduates.  This in turn made college a bad deal nearly across-the-board and as it occurred colleges and lenders lobbied Congress to change the law so that when your kid got rooked by this scam they couldn't file bankruptcy and force those who blew the bubble to eat the loss.

We did the same thing with Medical Care.  By providing "free" (or nearly so) care to Seniors and illegal immigrants, with the former being told "they paid for it" through Medicare taxes (a bald lie as on average they only put in 1/3rd in inflation-adjusted dollars as to what is spent on them) and the latter being simply told "you deserve it" the increase in medical insurance costs has run approximately 9% annually and will continue until and unless policies are changed.  This means that the $700 a month insurance policy for the reasonably-healthy 50 year old ($8,400 a year) who has been promised "no reduction in his Medicare" will cost $171,477 a year by the time he's 85 with no adjustment for the higher expense that comes with age.  That is, today's 15 year old will be forced to pay $171,477 a year for his medical insurance when he reaches 50.  Obviously, he won't as that amount is more than three times today's median family income and even if we allow a 3% inflation rate (which we should not) it will be more than 100% of the median family income in inflated dollars!  Since you can't pay more for something than you earn in total, what the politicians are telling you they will do cannot happen.

This, fundamentally, is the problem.

The slams and frankly slanderous lies coming from the so-called "Tea Party" jackasses are just as bad as those coming from the Soros mouthpieces.  They're all lies

As an example:

I am saying that no matter what your reasoning is, beyond Pensacola Florida's limited provincialism, or that of other small city's, the VAST MAJORITY of the OWS crowd, its organizers and "friends" (ACORN, SEIU, UAW, AFL-CIO, Ayres, Dohrn, Obama & Co. underwritten by George Soros who certainly never made a dime on Wall Street), are NOT OUR FRIENDS.

THEY ARE THE ENEMY!

Well, yes.  Now prove that the VAST MAJORITY of the "OWS" crowd on a national basis is affiliated with or paid for and/or underwritten by George Soros and those others who you claim have done so.

Prove it.  And do so under the rules of strict proof, because this sort of claim is an extraordinary one.  I didn't see any evidence of it - at all.

There was one table that was clearly union-oriented.  It contained members of the local transportation union trying to get a petition going against Veolia, a foreign company that the local area apparently hired to run the city buses.  Is their complaint legitimate?  I don't know; I haven't looked at it yet.  I did take their flier and will see what I can find out.  It will be a feature article later this week, I suspect.

But there was no hidden agenda here; these were clearly people asking for a redress of grievances.  Isn't that what you're supposed to do when you have grievances?

They are generally the crowd of entitlements and breaking America down, dumming America down, LEGALIZING ILLIGALS, and making what made America wealthy in the first place - capitalism - into something evil, into something it isn't and never was.

Oh really?  What "Capitalism" is present in making student loans non-dischargable, so that the student who does a dumb thing in taking them goes bankrupt and is hounded for life while the lender and their cronies can double - or more - the debt owed and lose nothing?  These same so-called "Capitalists" include the Mortgage Bankers Association who strategically defaulted on their own building mortgage, a common (and perfectly legal) tactic in the business world, yet they tell people it's immoral to do it themselves, and when possible these same "capitalists" get the laws changed so you, the people, cannot do what they did and do themselves!

Capitalism?  Where, may I ask?  The penalty for making bad loans is you go bankrupt!

When you change the laws so that the other guy goes bankrupt and you get to keep the loot the word for that is not capitalism, it is THEFT.

Where are the so-called "Tea Party" people that should be arguing for the REVOCATION OF BANK AND CORPORATE CHARTERS when they steal in this fashion?  Isn't that the same thing at a corporate level as imprisonment is at a personal level?  It sure is!

Now explain the so-called "Tea Party's" utter refusal to demand that Wachovia have its charter revoked for drug money laundering, something they admitted to doing, or shall we talk about the drug company that got caught twice committing the same criminal offense of marketing for unapproved purposes with the second offense occurring as they were negotiating a trivial FINE for the first one!

The so-called "Tea Party" is "for" the drug war, but refuses to demand that the penalties enforced against PERSONS who participate in the distribution of drugs be applied against CORPORATIONS that are part and parcel of the same offense!

They are the Politics of Envy, of DISTRIBUTING of OTHER'S PROPERTY. Of other's sweat and blood; of other's future, the eventual and certain diminishing of the quality of lives of our children. And equal society where the LCD's run things for the LCD's benefit. Where excellence is punished, stupidity and commonness rewarded.

Again, oh really?  What's Capitalist about Citifinancial who had their former chief risk officer testify under oath that the firm was selling on loans that they knew did not meet underwriting guidelines - that is, they knew they were defective and not what was represented to buyers.  This isn't conjecture and it wasn't a "small number" either - he testified that 80% of the loans they made in 2007 were defective.

Is it "capitalism" when I sell you a car showing 50,000 miles on the odometer but I rolled it back from 150,000, or is that theft and fraud when you buy said car and discover later that the engine and transmission are basically worn out, and thus you paid $10,000 for something that was worth $2,000?  I ****ed you out of the other $8,000 - I stole it - and in every other area of business when I do that it's illegal.

That is not capitalism - it is theft.  THAT is what you are supporting.

Reducing the ability of our nation to defend itself. That is what it's about. It is redistributing the nation's revenues from defense to various social programs (green energy and glabal warming concerns) under the phake and phoney flag of blaming banks and "banksters" for everything that went wrong with the economy and the human race. The irony never sparks in their minds that the banks allowed 99% of Americans to own a home in the first place.

Oh, "reducing our ability to defend ourselves", eh?  This is why after 9/11, when we knew that the majority of the people who did it came from and were funded by Saudi Arabia, we did not act against them? 

What are we "defending", may I ask?  Oh I don't have to: We're defending "access" to cheap oil.  We're promulgating a failed foreign policy that has now turned to propping up literal Kings and Dictators (Chavez anyone?) so we don't have to face the fact that we didn't do what was required to have a secure and thermodynamically sound energy policy for 30 years.

What went wrong, and why the unions are out in force, is the FACT the $85/hw wages the UAW now takes for granted cannot compete with $2-5/hr wages in Korea, Taiwan and China and the $1 TATA Motors pays in India to manufacture low end cars in second and third world countries in Asia and Africa - the only global sector that is actually growing.

And what is your solution?

My solution is to stop the stupid, including but not limited to those who want to promote mathematically bankrupt and therefore stupid policies in the monetary, economic, trade policy, tax policy and energy realm.

We cannot have illegal aliens in this nation at the behest of so-called "capitalists" who are simply exploiting effective slaves, smug in the knowledge that not only can they not complain when abused (lest the INS get called) but that when or if they get hurt, have a baby, or send their kids to school they will get to force, literally at gunpoint, everyone else to cover those costs they shoved up everyone else's ass.  The bleeding heart liberals are bad enough, but it is the hard-core right that has serially pandered to the "demand" for illegal labor for the farmers, home builders, lawn services and poultry houses across this nation!  I stand for ejecting every illegal immigrant from this nation right now!

We cannot have a Federal Reserve that believes in "2% inflation" when the law says STABLE PRICES.  A 2% increase is not stable; over the average man's working life of 45 years that leads to prices that are 244% of where they were when he was 20.  This makes it impossible for him to save for retirement; he either "takes risk" or winds up with literally 1/3rd of what he saved when he was 18.  This is theft and fraud; the value I earned and that represents my economic surplus is mine and when you steal it whether you do it a penny at a time or all at once you're still a thief.

We cannot have a Federal Government that spends more than it takes in via taxes for so-called "social programs" - or anything else, including "defense."  Compound growth - the very nature of exponents - makes such concepts, irrespective of where you try to run them, literally impossible to sustain over the long haul.  This rock we call "Earth" is of finite size, mass and resource.  Those resources are vast but the "dominionists" who believe they are infinite are factually wrongThe House, Republican controlled, has not put forward a budget containing one dollar in actual spending reduction and they continue to pass "continuing resolutions" to permit continued increases in spending despite the Senate's refusal to follow The Constitution and pass a damn budget!  Republicans support "The Rule of Law" my ass.

We cannot have an economic system where debt grows faster than output does.  The fundamental nature of exponents -- mathematical law -- guarantees that any such attempt will failThose who argue otherwise are doing the equivalent of persecuting Galileo, are just as evil, and should be tried and imprisoned for their crimes that they intentionally and willfully inflict upon society with their factually bankrupt and morally evil stupidity.

You want to know what I stand for? 

THAT is what I stand for.

It is why I started writing The Market Ticker in 2007, when I saw the exact same wingnut crap being run by Bush and company after seeing the same bull**** run by the lefty redistributionist Clinton and company in the 1990s with his willful and intentional refusal to deal with obvious frauds in the Internet space that led to the Nasdaq market collapse.  I gave interviews at the time (1998/99) stating exactly this.  It was a known fact that the claimed "doublings" were not happening yet they were reported in so-called "Earnings" reports.  Literal thousands of people knew this was a lie and yet not one person was indicted or imprisoned for these intentionally false statements.  When I saw evidence of the same crap again in 07 I decided that it was not going to happen to the public a second time without me raising hell about it.

It was that fact and the fact that the so-called "conservatives" in fact had stolen the wealth and futures of people from infants to young adults who they scammed into taking unpayable loans for "college" while changing the laws so they could not petition for bankruptcy and blew an intentional housing bubble while offshoring our jobs at the same time, thereby guaranteeing both a monstrous bubble and the ensuing bust that led me to this publication.

It was the fact that McCain and his advisors knew damn well that this was theft and fraud yet he suspended his campaign to bail out the thieves that led me to publicly denounce him and everyone involved in it.

It was the fact that instead of focusing on this where The Tea Party began with both my call for tea bags to be sent to Congress and Santelli's scream, which was focused on exactly the same scams and theft, the so-called "Tea Party" instantly turned to "Guns, Gays and God" and gave a complete and utter pass to the intentional theft that led us to where are now, and has to this day refused to demand that those who participated in that theft face the music for their acts and that the stupid lenders go bankrupt right next to the stupid borrowers who must be afforded the same opportunity, including students who were scammed into taking unpayable loans with ridiculously rosy and intentionally false projections of job prospects that the math PhDs at those colleges had to know were factually impossible.

It is the fact that despite claiming to be for "fiscal responsibility" The Tea Party folded with many of its members voting Yes to the debt ceiling increase, refusing to publicly denounce the Ryan and McConnell plans that do not cut one single dollar of federal expenditures; they in fact both RAISE federal expenditures. Worse, both plans contain projections (such as Ryan's "5% growth rates") that have never been sustained on a forward basis over the time projected in the history of the nation once one subtracts out additional systemic debt.  In other words these plans are knowing and willful frauds upon the public and the Tea Party is supporting them. Even the CBO, which has historically always projected a too-rosy future on a fiscal basis (they projected in 2000, remember that the nation would have no debt whatsoever by 2010!) says these plans rely on unreasonably-rosy projections into the future.

You want to know why I said "**** the Tea Party", called it out before the 2010 elections as a bunch of bull**** artists playing the same tired "Guns, Gays and God" song that the Catholic Church ran against Galileo oh so long ago?

THAT is why I did so and will continue to do so right up until people just like you who claim to be "affiliated" with that "movement" (which you stole from one Sam of some 200+ years ago; you no more own it than I do as it's an idea, not a person or organization) quit perverting that idea and*****ing on the graves of men who actually were great, actually had sound ideas, and gave us this nation - a nation you seek to destroy through utterly bankrupt and knowingly-fraudulent promises just as do the hard-core leftists.

Incidentally, the Catholic Church eventually apologized for what they did.  The Tea Party has not.

PS: You want to know why I should have not had to write Leverage?  It's found right here - it is the willful and intentional refusal to understand what you learn in fifth grade, which is the subject of a rather dry academic lecture you can find online.  It is this willful and intentional refusal to deal with these fundamental mathematical facts that led to the outright theft and fraud in our economy and government, and until the so-called "Tea Party" comes to face mathematics you're just as much a part of the scam as is the left.  Period.

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User Info OWS (And Everyone Else): Pay Attention To Greece in forum [Market-Ticker]
Scrood
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Who's Andrew?

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Peteb
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This post is like getting hit by a train...
Mayorviolet
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Mr. Denninger - As an infrequent poster that enjoys your posts, but is likely a bit more left than many of your followers, I truly admire your willingness to consider all sides of an argument, rather than dismiss OWS as a bunch of dirty hippies, as some in the media would have us do. You really should consider running for office; your insights and non-partisan approach to solving problems might well touch a responsive chord with the electorate.
Vegasradar
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yeah, who is Andrew?

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Genesis
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A nozzle who has been spamming Steph with utter bull****. He finally pushed my "here it comes" button.

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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?

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G20 tells euro zone to fix debt crisis in eight days
By Catherine Bremer and Jan Strupczewski
PARIS | Sat Oct 15, 2011
Reuters

Quote:
...In unusually direct language, finance ministers and central bankers of the Group of 20 major economies said they expected an October 23 European Union summit to "decisively address the current challenges through a comprehensive plan".

French Finance Minister Francois Baroin, who chaired the meeting, said Berlin and Paris, the leading euro zone powers, were well on the way to agreeing a plan to reduce Greece's debt, stop contagion and protect Europe's banks.

Non-euro countries highlighted the damage the European crisis was already doing to their economies and underlined the urgent need for action by the 17-nation single currency area.

"Europe needs to get its act together because unless the crisis is put to an end, it will start to affect emerging economies which have enjoyed strong growth," Japanese Finance Minister Jun Azumi said....


more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/1....

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Mr. Denninger is not electable. He does not seek to please people and uses off color language and illustrations.

He is not a politician.

Edited: On second thought, by definition, he may well be a politician (no offense intended):

From Wikipedia:

"A politician or political leader (from Greek "polis") is an individual who is involved in influencing public policy and decision making. This includes people who hold decision-making positions in government, and people who seek those positions, whether by means of election, coup d'état, appointment, electoral fraud, conquest, right of inheritance (see also: divine right) or other means. Politics is not limited to governance through public office. Political offices may also be held in corporations, and other entities that are governed by self-defined political processes."

Badgermaster
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It bothers me when people defend the current system as "Capitalist" just as much as when people attack it as "Capitalist". I hate that capitalism/the free market takes the blame for the modern US' fascist economic system.
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Badgermaster:
Yes, and those on the right who defend the current system as "capitalism" just make it all that much easier for the left to attack it. In essence, it's a strawman.

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Good read, passing it on.

bob

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Dazedncornfused
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>Papandreou said the government was fighting to stop Greece defaulting on its debts<
There's the first lie. Greece defaulted years ago, it hasn't covered its own bills and debt payments in years. Taxpayers of other countries, mostly Germany, but also Great Britain, Spain and Italy have been paying their way. It's only come to a head because the PIIGS quit playing and now Europe wants the US suckers to step in. Que the sob stories so Bernanke and 0bama can save the world.

As far as the Tea Party goes, we paid attention in the last election and tried to send honest reps to serve us. We were lied to.

We can't camp out for weeks on end on somebody else's property, we have jerbs. Our bosses expect us to show up groomed and sober at the beginning of each shift, all for the privilege of paying taxes to support unionized schoolteachers, and underwrite student loans so the unwashed can attend Gravy League schools and tell me how stingy I am and camp out and trash the Wisconsin Capitol building and our central cities.

Sorry, all I saw in the pictures are the Commie Mommies. They scream bloody murder about the sins of the Bushes, but when the military misadventures and the drunken rabid borrowing of Obama are brought up the Mommies suddenly forget how to speak English and their brains slide out their ears and onto the floor. Hey, the Peacemaker Obama just sent the military into Uganda and Ethiopa and Sudan and Syria and Afghanistan and Pakistan to "remove from the battlefield" people he doesn't like. That's "killing a country's leaders" for those of us who know the law and right from wrong. But that's OK for the Commie Mommies who still wring their hands over Peron and Allende.

Obama has now wasted in borrowing more money than all previous presidents combined. Get an answer for that.

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Quote:
This post is like getting hit by a train...


There've been some good tickers & this one is right up there.

They'll sabotage OWS if they can & there'll be another movement & they'll try to sabotage that too. I don't think it can work indefinitely though. And it's stupid to try - OWS and the original tea party movement are both good examples of feedback mechanisms built into elightened societies that help prevent or correct mistakes. It is DANGEROUS to short circuit them. Like disconnecting the safeties at an oil rig or nuclear plant. Not so much because it could end up with civil unrest although sure, that too... it's just that turning off the self check is dangerous in its own right.

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Quote:
They'll sabotage OWS if they can & there'll be another movement & they'll try to sabotage that too. I don't think it can work indefinitely though.


It doesn't matter if it's leftists who stop the looting by the 1 percent, or if a temporarily united populace of the '99 percent' does it.

It just has to stop.

If the 99ers do it, at some point our differing points of view will split us apart again. This is both right and necessary. There has to be legitimate debate and politics that decides our levels of spending and taxation. We don't have that now. We just have looters and their lackeys in office. Until the 1 percent is put out of business, that's all we'll ever have. They'll corrupt whoever is elected within days of their election, if not before.

I don't care if a bunch of red flag waving communists do it. It has to be done.


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Dirtyshirt
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Quote:
Mr. Denninger is not electable. He does not seek to please people and uses off color language and illustrations.

He is not a politician.



I'm certainly done with electing politicians to,represent me.

I'm thinking that at the very least what we're witnessing from the people recently is a major shift from how we normally do things, such as voting for, "politicians."
Etz
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The irony never sparks in their minds that the banks allowed 99% of Americans to own a home in the first place.

No shortage of stupidity in this one.

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Eni_orisa
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Karl, you have a strange notion of what is voluntary.
Sandor
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Green
Deltaville,Virginia
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Quote:
This is the principle known simply as "there's no such thing as a free lunch." It's true in thermodynamics and it's also true in economics.


Its called Entropy.
Glennb6
Posts: 481
Incept: 2009-03-02
Green
ne florida
Banned
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Remember some yrs back when there were 4 or 5 TV stations to choose from and 3 that had news, and the news was the same. Along came Limbaugh on the radio. He represented the silent majority's voice and fought the established media backed by the established politics. He made sense and articulated what many "knew" in their stomach but couldn't get their head fully around.

Similar examples such as Ayn Rands' Atlas Shrugged book were the "ding ding ding" moment for others. Other examples are out there of course.

We all may not agree 100% with Limbaugh, or Ayn Rand, or Ross Perot, but if push came to shove I'd want march with them.

Karl is one of those icons in current day form. As he has well put, many of the OWS in actuality or in spirit "know somethings very wrong and they've been screwed", have a clue, but the good Gen nails it down to the last punctuation mark! He has not become 'famous' other than this small blog and forum and some interviews, but his message is big and true enough to be stamped on the back of legal coinage and flown on a flag at every courthouse in the nation.
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I've typed it before, general strike - stop the system - stop the money. It is the only way to begin fixing the mess, it's even possible to fix. Gen needs to mind meld with Limbaugh and a half dozen others, or at least get to them to distill their BS down to the real truth of honesty, integrity, responsibility and consequences. He (and we) needs these established mouthpieces to delivery Karls words to the country.

It may well take peaceful general strike to wake much of the populace before they listen to truth. It would take these mouthpieces to do that. Gen needs to be cloned, or at least his message put into the ears of 100 million people. Leverage those with an audience.

It may well take disparate individuals such as Ron Paul, Glenn Beck, Karl, Donald Trump, etc to sit down, acknowledge they don't agree on all, but fundamentally they agree on enough to unite. Unite under the banner of truth, join in a platform true math and reality, and en-mass tell the nation the truth.

That is all.
Mikek31
Posts: 4359
Incept: 2009-05-04
Green
Chicago
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Damn, what a douche this "Andrew" is. You'd think after so many years, people would "get it." Nope! They're still running the same bull**** that's been run for literal decades, and falling for it. Can't fix stupid.

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Intentional manipulation of markets is usually thought of as a crime, not a benefit, and should lead to indictments, not praise. -Karl
Badgermaster
Posts: 64
Incept: 2009-04-03

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Rickl wrote..
Badgermaster:
Yes, and those on the right who defend the current system as "capitalism" just make it all that much easier for the left to attack it. In essence, it's a strawman.
Exactly. Between fascists who claim to be capitalists, and marxists who claim that fascism is capitalism (with the former facilitating the latter) it gets very difficult to have an honest discussion about our economic systems.

Unfortunately, the folks who buy into those two paradigms seem to be in the majority, and sometimes it gets difficult to hold out any hope that the truth will eventually win out.
Abn0rmal
Posts: 9261
Incept: 2009-01-10
Green A True American Patriot!
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Badgermaster wrote..
Between fascists who claim to be capitalists, and marxists who claim that fascism is capitalism (with the former facilitating the latter) it gets very difficult to have an honest discussion about our economic systems.
There's freedom and then there's everything else.

If you are allowed to engage in voluntary transactions without being subject to coercion then you're free. Otherwise you're not.

There are many different flavors of not being free but the distinctions aren't particularly important.
Jake3463
Posts: 770
Incept: 2010-03-06
Green
Allentown
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The democratic party establishment will try to co-opt the Occupy groups or whatever it is that follows them as anger grows. These groups stand a chance of not being co-opted as long as supporters are reminded that Nancy Pelosi was speaker, Senator Obama approve the bailouts as a Senator, and Tim Geithner was a large part of the mess along with Bernake at the Federal Reserve.

The reason the Tea Party was so easily co-opted by the GOP in 2009 and 2010 was Obama was trying to implement the GOP's idea for HCR in the 1990s which was a bad idea when Newt and Dole dreamed it up to oppose Hillary Care (an even worse idea).
Mrgone
Posts: 4229
Incept: 2007-09-15
Green
The Event Horizon
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Cheers Karl.

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“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."
- Leo Tolstoy
Badgermaster
Posts: 64
Incept: 2009-04-03

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Abn0rmal wrote..
There's freedom and then there's everything else.

If you are allowed to engage in voluntary transactions without being subject to coercion then you're free. Otherwise you're not.
Absolutely. I understand this, and I imagine most of the folks who read the Ticker do, but we aren't the majority, unfortunately. I'm very much anti-authoritarian, and am constantly surprised (though I shouldn't be at this point) by all the people who love tyranny, as long as it's their flavor of it.

I've done my part to educate friends and family over the past 3-4 years, and have been mostly successful at that (thanks to a profusion of educational links to Karl's site here), but it'd be nice to see more folks like us having a prominent voice in the nationwide debate. If the free market, something we haven't really had in this country since at least 1913, takes the blame for this mess, then we'll have no hope for something better when the current corrupt system finally comes crashing down.
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