Germany To Leave The Euro?
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2011-09-30 07:13
by Karl Denninger
in Editorial
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Germany To Leave The Euro?
 

I don't usually write on rumors, but this one simply will not go away.

Germany is rumored to have ordered printing plates to resume printing Marks, and is intending to walk.  This does make sense, although the Germans would have to find a way to shield their banks from the impact of a massive shift off the Euro and into the Mark by Germans, which would spike the Mark higher and positively trash the Euro's value.

The usual answer to "why they won't" is that the Mark would become ridiculously strong and that would kill Germany's export industry, which being goods based (rather than the faux "export industry" that is often mostly services) would get plastered.  The core of most commentators' thesis is that this fact would preclude Germany from doing it.

But here's the problem - playing the bailout game is a tax exactly identical to the impact of that stronger currency, and the bailout game costs you the decision-making power you retain when you are the one in control of your own destiny.

The German people are tired of the crap and with good reason.  They should not have bailed out Greece in the first place; they effectively rewarded cheating, as Greece was caught cooking the books.  Rather than prosecute the banks involved and yanking their charters, along with saying "No Mas!" they knelt down and performed an obscene act - more than once.  There is a political limit to how far you can go with these acts before the people act in whatever manner is necessary to put a stop to it, and the Germans have a long and painful history of what popular tolerance of political stupidity leads to.

I think there's at least some credibility to this rumor.  I can't put a percentage on the bet, but it's not pure tinfoil nonsense.  Whether Germany actually goes ahead and does it likely depends on whether there is a further contagion - and I think there will be.  In fact, as I noted yesterday in an interview (to be published as a podcast next week) I have a nasty suspicion that Europe will ultimately "resolve" this problem the way Europe has in the past - via the business end of a bunch of hot lead-chuckers.

That would be disastrous but not surprising, given historical precedent. 

Here's the problem, when you get down to it - there comes a point where further bailouts have to be refused, simply because there's no money to fund them.  I don't know exactly where that line is, but I do know it exists.  Believing it doesn't is the stuff of fantasy, and yet that's exactly what the "Troika", the IMF and others are all running.

The market says "BS!" to all of this; the sell-off in the equity markets is bad, but the implied forward view looking at high yield credit is far worse, and that looking at credit-default spreads is even worse than that.  The latter on a number of institutions are showing the sorts of numbers that immediately preceded Lehman's failure, implying the potential for a "no-notice" liquidity seizure.

If it happens, and if it does it is likely to come almost without warning if not literally without warning, Germany would find it very expedient to leave the Euro.

Note that the treaties that formed the Euro left no means to expel a misbehaving "member."  But there's no way to restrain a nation from deciding to quit as opposed to being expelled.

Many believe that Greece will leave instead.  They may, but only when it's clear that there will be no more "bailouts" forthcoming.  Their departure would destroy their banks instantly, unless it was coupled with a simultaneous "by declaration" re-denomination at par of all Euro-denominated debts in the nation into the Drachma.

That, incidentally, is not beyond the realm of possibility.  What other nations in the Euro would think of it, and the sort of tectonic reaction it would generate, is another thing entirely.

I think we're weeks to months away from a catastrophic failure somewhere in Europe, and the slowdown in Asia is much worse than is being reported.  Any belief that we're going to avoid the repercussions of these events is pure folly.

That is a light you see down the tunnel, now that we have walked in well over a mile from the mouth.

Unfortunately that light it is a train and there is no chance we can run the other way fast enough to avoid being flattened.

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User Info Germany To Leave The Euro? in forum [Market-Ticker]
Mo
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I don't think the Germans will start the cascade. It's more likely they're preparing for when the cascade begins.

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Rarnopp
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Let's not forget that the German governing class wanted the Euro, largely for selfish reasons. By eliminating exchange rate risk in Europe, it gave them an enormous "domestic" market, while the inclusion of the weaker southern brethren within the Euro-zone ensured that the new currency was kept relatively weak (at least, weaker than the D-Mark was), thereby assisting German competitiveness in world markets.

The Germans would be mad if they were not formulating contingency plans for the contraction of the Euro-zone to its northern core, or even outright collapse, but they will not initiate this.

I persist in thinking that the Euro-zone will shed members but survive.

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"Things and actions are what they are, and the consequences of them will be what they will be: why then should we desire to be deceived?"
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Particenens
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Karl for me this is bullish

is 3 years that the german media, blogs etc etc come out with the DM2

here old pieces form early 2010

http://www.freie-allgemeine.de/artikel/n....
http://www.scribd.com/doc/30224499/Bekom....
http://www.mlm-infos.com/ftopic27553.htm....


the web, the german one, was full during 2009-2010 of rumors and videos (yes video) like this one that was removed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-cvH3pHb.... with people saying that they had seen the DM2 or trucks on the highway to delivery the new currency ...

Rumors = bull**** IMO

a fact is that the german industrial association last week (or 2 weeks ago) said with a manifesto that the german industry need the € at all
they are the biggest manufacturing country in europe and STILL the FIRST exporter in the world, yes is not China****

for sure a € without germany is tote, dead, morto, muerto

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Goldbrick
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Hey Bartender, another round of Gotterdammerung for everyone!

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Reason: typo
Stonedog
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COuld I have that with an order of Schadenfreude

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"I would characterize my professional disdain as more of a professional contempt for their [Central Banker, Banker and politician] economic and financial policies, priorities, presumptions and prescriptions." - Lauren Lyster on Capital Account for Friday June 16, 2012

"All the stimulus, the bailouts, the quantit
Snowman
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I think returning to D-Mark is a real possibility and knowing how Germany works (they first look after their own) it is a contingency plan in case (no, when) TSHTF.

Pippa Malmgren - an insider into the these workings, has connected the dots and makes, I believe, convincing arguments.
http://www.pippamalmgren.com/77.html

In any case, shorting the euro against usd is still my bet both medium and longer term.
Preidt2
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Maybe Germany is the only country with BRAINS!!!!! FIRST OUT first to bebuild

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Jamesbond
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KD wrote..
Whether Germany actually goes ahead and does it likely depends on whether there is a further contagion - and I think there will be.


Yes, this fear of contagion, and the resultant effect on the banking elite, is the major impediment to Germany abandoning the doomed Euro. And this contagion risk is significantly amplified by the elusive derivatives house-of-cards.

Of course, Germany now realizes that it is handcuffed to the moribund Euro ... as this anchor around it's neck continues to drag it down.

The question is: "when will the German people finally stop this debacle?"
Stonedog
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Well, it is the Prisoner's Dillemma. The first to bail will be in the best position. Germany is currently in the best position of any of the EU countries. So if they did bail out first they would cement their position as the strongest nation in Europe.

Please note that I"m not saying that there wouldn't be any pain if they did so. There would be. Their export industry would suffer enormously. However, this way they would maintain their sovereignty and they could stop with the idiotic bailouts coming out of Brussels.

Of course, the rest of the EU would be rendered instantly destitute.

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"I would characterize my professional disdain as more of a professional contempt for their [Central Banker, Banker and politician] economic and financial policies, priorities, presumptions and prescriptions." - Lauren Lyster on Capital Account for Friday June 16, 2012

"All the stimulus, the bailouts, the quantit
Jeffex11
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The move by Germany back to the Mark COULD be brilliant......IF they back the currency with something of value such as Gold.....

Then the world will beat a path to hold the Mark....and it will be the NEW currency of record for trading oil in the world....

Leaving the US fiat currency to suffer Wiemar Republic type hyperinflation .

The progressives in the US are waiting to collapse the economy and usher in a new constitution before they back a new currency with land......

The timing is critical ...if Germany draws first blood in the worlds currency market ......they may be the world new smartest in the room....the question remains however, do they have a tangible to back a new Mark with????

Either way we are headed for WW3
Swordsman
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Quote:
The timing is critical ...if Germany draws first blood in the worlds currency market ......they may be the world new smartest in the room....the question remains however, do they have a tangible to back a new Mark with????

Either way we are headed for WW3


So the smartest people in the room will start WWIII? Wish we could all be so smart.

Vitchilo
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If Germany were to leave the euro, wouldn't surprise me if it creates a war in Europe.

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Mo
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09/30/2011
National Governments Can't Be Trusted
Barroso Calls for More Power for EU Institutions

Quote:
European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso has called for more power for the EU's institutions.

European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso has said in an interview that the EU's institutions need to be strengthened to stabilize the euro zone, arguing that national governments can't be trusted to take determined action. Meanwhile, former German Finance Minister Peer Steinbrück says it's time to openly admit that Greece is practically bankrupt....


More: http://www.spiegel.de/international/euro....

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Snowman
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I am not convinced (if Germany gives up on the Euro) that Germany's exports will tank due to potential currency revaluation.

Firstly, much of their exports are high value goods (not just beemers) from the middle sized engineering companies who supply into large global supply chains. These are not easily replaceable to the buyers in
France, UK, US, Italy, Netherlands (in that order).

Second, Germany has managed before in relatively high currency value (their DEM-USD from 1970 to 1998 varied anywhere between 3.6 to 1.7 and DEM-FRF/GBP crosses were at times also against DEM's favor), while their exports basically straight-lined growth during these "strong" periods. IN fact, Germany's fastest export growth of late comes on the back of when the EUR has been the strongest (against USD). Explanations has to do with what they are exporting.

WOuld all investors suddenly leave anything that had EURO fixed to it? I doubt it unless of course France, Italy, Netherlands also abandons the currency and then we are back to my second point.

Lastly, they can always peg their DEM can't they?

Huge disruptions to be sure, but long term could be an upside for them.
Scottbeard
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Vitchilo - a war between who and who, over what, using what money to pay for the armaments?

I can see plenty of scope for more rioting when benefits get cut, but I can't see anyone driving tanks into Germany to take bailout money by force.
Perramas
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I do not think we would see European countries going to war with each other if the European Union collapsed. I could see the political elites deflecting/directing the mobs anger towards the immigrants from Africa and the middle east.

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Wineaux
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Quote:
If Germany were to leave the euro, wouldn't surprise me if it creates a war in Europe.


It’s too early for this to happen. Germany would blow its own dick off if a war started. Russia would simply flip a switch cutting off the flow of gas to Germany. Germany needs an ally to hinder the Russians. If I were to speculate I would think that Germany and China would form some sort of alliance to move towards a global basket of currencies which as a result would cause fits for the US as it would destroy the dollar and thus lead us to rattling our swords. And who knows what would ensure further…..

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Fraudster
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I read somewhere that China is slowing to about 5% GDP growth. Everyone is panicking over this? I know the meme that China needs 7% GDP growth, but nobody has ever shown the math on that one. Personally, 5% in China, is better than 0 to -X% in the US

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"Let China sleep, for when she wakes, she will shake the world." - Napoleon Bonaparte

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Rd
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Either way leaving the Euro or Bailing out they are heading for a slower economic times and unfortunately there are no real leaders in the world to get us through this. Hopefully we just fumble through the tough years and we do not head towards county/ethnic/religious wars. If the public was smart they would go after the politicians on both sides as well as the bankers.

Degaston
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I bet that Germany starting anew the Deutsch Mark would certainly put the IMF's new plan at risk for making the 2008 "temporary" 590 billion credit lines now "perm" and getting the national parliaments of member countries (with the USA being the biggest of them) approving another 750 billion.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424....

Karl, what do you think about the IMF's latest plan and all the efforts underway to get all the parliaments of member nations to approve it in early 2012? Maybe I missed your reaction on this plan and its 1.34 trillion dollar ticket price.

Oh .... I did miss his reaction. As I expected ... Karl wasn't impressed by the IMF's plan.

http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=1....

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3/17/2013: Bullish on nothing - 100 percent in cash.

Reason: I did miss his reaction
Vitchilo
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Yeah Germany needs an ally... Russia.

And yeah it would take years for a war to erupt. But a collapse of the euro would screw most of Europe, the MSM and the elite would blame it all on Germany.

Hungry and people who were stolen everything can easily be manipulated.

And ``it can't happen``... remember that a very popular book was written in Europe in 1911-1912 saying that war in Europe could never happen again because they were too link economically and all a bunch of other stuff people are saying today. The book was very popular back then and a lot of people agreed with it.

Well guess what, they were wrong.

In The Guns of August, the author writes about that.

From wiki about the reasons of WW1 :
Quote:
Economic miscalculation. In Tuchman's view, both European intellectuals and leaders overestimated the power of free trade. These individuals believed that the interconnection of European nations due to this trade would stop a continent-wide war from breaking out, as the economic consequences would be too great. However, this assumption was incorrect.

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Jeffex11
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Yes ..as crazy as it seems ...Germany WOULD be the smartest in the room...as war may very well be inevitable......I believe that is what they are weighing right now...can the outbreak in Europe be managed..or will it escalate in to WW3...America has no domestic capacity to respond rapidly ....the industrial base is offshore .....China will sit it out ...think it through .....Germany could be the worlds currency for oil.....with the snap of a printing press.....as long as they have something of value to back it with...

The war will break out in Greece , as the people can't get food and are broke!!! It will escalate as people scramble to just survive.

Russia will not be effected in a way as to cause it break it's supply to Germany of oil....
Phev
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i hope they do it, it would be an immediat collapse in our fix income market... And we deserve it..

Hello wineaux... We are some kind of a banana republic but we still have our grape juice...

http://www.grandsbourgognes.com/les-doma....
Ghopper
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Better to have a strong currency than a collapsing one.
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