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| The IMF: Please Don't Hold Our Heads Underwater in forum [Market-Ticker]
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Xanares
Posts: 2595
Incept: 2008-11-10
Between Sicily and Tunisia
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I'm wondering if she's basically sounding like DSK did or if there is a difference anywhere...
Sounds like the same crap as always to me.
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Uwe
Posts: 6425
Incept: 2009-01-03
19446
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KD wrote..all initiations of force are deserving of the same response. Bezzle will be thrilled! KD finally advocates resistance to all taxes and amending the Constitution to remove Article 1, Section 8.  Or maybe I'm misinterpreting what you meant when you wrote that? -Uwe-
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“Whenever the legislators endeavor to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people, who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience.” - John Locke
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Genesis
Posts: 130666
Incept: 2007-06-26
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The difference between sex and******is consent.
Europe entered into a gentlemen's agreement without enforcement mechanisms. Some people cheated. Rather than punish the cheaters by letting them twist on the vine grown of their own actions the solution advocated seems to be to punish those who didn't cheat, and they're not asking - they're demanding and intending to use force to obtain what they want.
That can only be done one way - by putting a gun to the people's head. Once someone declares their intent to initiate force you are within your rights under the basis of The Declaration to take whatever actions are necessary to stop it.
If you wish a government to provide services you must fund it, ergo, you must consent to taxation. The only consistent means by which you can refuse consent to ANY taxation is if you also refuse all government service, including implicit protection of your right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. Bezzle's position is inconsistent with this, as he is fully willing to enjoy that which he advocates not paying for himself, but which he's not willing to forego, as evidenced by the fact that he will alight from his home and travel upon a road paid for with the tax expenditures of others.
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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb. What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
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Sharon
Posts: 4352
Incept: 2008-02-10
Odessa, Missouri
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So the banks have trillions in losses, and the plan is to force our children and grandchildren to pay them out of their future earnings, by shifting these losses onto the public balance sheet.
Looks to me like the plan is to have future generations living on tortillas and beans for the rest of geological time, so that assorted impecunious crooks can continue to enjoy their palaces, jets, and yachts.
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Semper ubi sub ubi.
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Mo
Posts: 12158
Incept: 2007-06-26
Pa.
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At some point, after this **** all collapses and these people are on trial, they'll say 'but we gave our friends an extra n years to enjoy their lives. It was a magical time for them.'
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Welcome to Pottersville
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Jwm_in_sb
Posts: 1036
Incept: 2009-04-16
California Desert
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How does J6P begin to even grasp this? He is just now beginning to understand why the housing market blew up (see the responses on the ticker from last week) let alone draw the necessary connections .
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Bozonian
Posts: 19873
Incept: 2007-09-01
Saratoga Springs, New York
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Um, I think you put your finger on the moral justification these bankers, those who have a soul and aren't psychopaths, are using in their own minds:
"The thanks I get for letting people borrow and consume all they want! Well, I for one am not taking the blame for just trying to help."
They see themselves as the great "givers" and that's probably what they are telling the Congressmen. I can't imagine Maxine Waters, who is on the financial services committee, would be siding with bankers, unless she's too stupid to understand "balance your checkbook" or has been brainwashed with something like "We have, and are still, enabling disadvantaged black people to own houses because you know whitey has infinite money and this budget bull**** is just a smokescreen to keep a bruthu down".
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Forget about blaming, fighting with, or crediting other people. The only real challenge in life, is with yourself. -- Me
Everything I write is my opinion and not to be considered proven fact. Nothing I write should be considered financial advice.
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Swarf_maker
Posts: 124
Incept: 2008-10-18
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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Quote:What should be done is to impose the corporate death penalty on those institutions that cannot cover their own debt loads. We should force the bad debt into the open and default it. We must return to a sustainable level of public and private debt, and in the United States that's about half of what's outstanding right now. Absolutely! Unfortunately however, that would impact the top 0.01% wealthy who control the government, so it isn't going to happen - at least as long as the wealthy remain in control. Instead some more of the life blood of the economy will be sucked into the pockets of the top 0.01%.
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"Eternal vigilance by the people is the price of liberty." Andrew Jackson
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Swarf_maker
Posts: 124
Incept: 2008-10-18
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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Sharon: Quote:Looks to me like the plan is to have future generations living on tortillas and beans for the rest of geological time, so that assorted impecunious crooks can continue to enjoy their palaces, jets, and yachts. That is exactly the thesis of ampedstatus.org's David Degraw. http://ampedstatus.org/Analysis-of-Finan....His paper (27 pages) may be a bit left-leaning for most readers here, but it does provide an explanation for the continued wrongdoing that Karl has been pointing out here for some time. By peeling away some of the statistical concealment, it also lays out in some detail just how bad things have become. I'm not sure I buy into any conspiracy theory, unrestrained collective greed explains it just as well. But in the end the result is the same.
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"Eternal vigilance by the people is the price of liberty." Andrew Jackson
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Peterm99
Posts: 4981
Incept: 2009-03-21
SoCal
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Swarf-maker wrote... . . would impact the top 0.01% wealthy who control the government . . . Unfortunately, that's not quite correct. The haircuts will affect many who rely on the bad investments, such as pension funds, etc. Thus, the repercussions would also flow down to include many middle class folks, and not stay with just the very wealthy. That being said, it still is the only way to get out of the mess that currently exists. TANSTAAFL
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". . . the Constitution has died, the economy welters in irreversible decline, we have perpetual war, all power lies in the hands of the executive, the police are supreme, and a surveillance beyond Orwell’s imaginings falls into place." - Fred Reed
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Swarf_maker
Posts: 124
Incept: 2008-10-18
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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Quote:The haircuts will affect many who rely on the bad investments, such as pension funds, etc. Thus, the repercussions would also flow down to include many middle class folks, and not stay with just the very wealthy. But you must understand, that makes no difference to those actually in control. Gawd, I'm getting cynical in my old age. Shoulda done it thirty years ago.
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"Eternal vigilance by the people is the price of liberty." Andrew Jackson
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Jpg
Posts: 329
Incept: 2009-03-23
MI
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Quote:Home prices must come down. Done. I just made the mistake of checking the Zillow assessment of the value of my house; $7000 less than I paid for it 27 years ago.
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Flappingeagle
Posts: 1224
Incept: 2011-04-14
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Gold help me but I read those quotes and all I got was babble, babble, babble, and shifting debt onto the public.
Karl is right, the banks that are bankrupt need the death penalty or, as the old folks used to say, "let's get on with the rat killin'."
What will it be like if we let the bankrupt banks go under? It will be pure hell for a couple of years. I suspect strongly that they will take a number of insurance companies and pension funds with them as those companiesand funds almost surely bought bank bonds as a part of their portfolio. You would see a number of annuities trimmed to 75% or so if the recipient is lucky.
After the pain we would start over on a firm foundation, not like now where we are trying to build a 100 story skyscraper by starting on the 100th floor and working our way down.
On kind of a tangential idea, is there a reason we can't extend and pretend for 20 years like Japan has? If so, is it because we are already at the limit of the debt that we can service?
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Here are my predictions for everyone to see: S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu. "You can't build a house of cards on a shaking table." - Tony Johns The January 2015 AMZN put at $130 (cost $4.25) will be a winner.
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Ponzi_unit
Posts: 8092
Incept: 2007-09-05
Online
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"fragmented risk" is an understatement. They cloned rabbits.
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Taxpayers witnessed a crime and stayed around long enough to get charged with it.
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Crzymorse
Posts: 1183
Incept: 2010-06-25
Maryland
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How about a real plan, build actual infrastructure, not high speed rail bull****. I mean tertiary sewage treatment plants, dedicated bike roads in cities, geothermal heating and cooling systems especially in the mid-atlantic, sustainable aquaculture, burying power lines, oyster and clam beds, Better recycling for electronics and high end robotics.Infrastructure with an actual long term future payback. Add many productivity improvements such as education over the Internet. Imagine if the kids worked 2-3 hours in morning, played sports, musical instruments, arts and crafts, social, programming and other activities in the afternoon and had 2 hours of lecture in the evening instead of TV.
Just getting started, on the infrastructure ideas, we need to lead the world out of this mess not follow Europe into the quagmire which soon will be the blame game which in turns causes rioting and wars. Unproductive ventures should loss money, not propped up. However, Austerity for the poor while the rich get bailed is bull**** as well. US investment in real stuff needs to be the way out. If I'm wrong we just default later on (the magnitude today is already incomprehensible).
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Blurtman
Posts: 563
Incept: 2009-01-24
Banned
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Why not just pull back all of the ill gotten wealth that Wall Street has paid itself? Let's start with Hank Paulson.
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I have a reading comprehension problem and the owner banned me for repeatedly displaying it after being warned.
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Crzymorse
Posts: 1183
Incept: 2010-06-25
Maryland
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The way to do that that is payoff everybody's mortgage and collapse the debt market. No mortgage, no reason for two income producing households. Now one parent needs to work to feed, clothe and educate the kids and the other to pay bank debt and a artificially propped up healthcare system. Eliminate one and assets can deflate.
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Mrbill
Posts: 7840
Incept: 2008-10-19
North Carolina
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You could just end "mark to fantasy" and watch assets deflate. Once the government didn't have the banks back (hah!), smart banks would write down mortgages and take some losses, rather than take ownership of a foreclosed house and take more losses.
Problem solved the right way.
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Jstanley01
Posts: 8172
Incept: 2008-07-30
San Antonio, Texas
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Who is this guy? The Bernanke's love child?
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You can't cheat an honest man. ~P.T. Barnum
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Murf
Posts: 4486
Incept: 2007-08-28
MurfCon Warning Level: Arrogance II
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Karl wrote..The dreams of political fools must accede to mathematical and historical facts, and on this point the data is clear - we cannot grow out of this. We must instead consolidate out of it and accept the economic pain that will result. beautifully said.
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The money has already been lost. Someone has to book it.
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Flappingeagle
Posts: 1224
Incept: 2011-04-14
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Mish Shedlock has a post showing the interest rate on 1-year Greek bonds at 60%. I read that to mean default is considered to be imminent by the market with a substantial haircut for bondholders.
Someone please help me out here, would this mean that a $1000 bond would sell for 625?
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Here are my predictions for everyone to see: S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu. "You can't build a house of cards on a shaking table." - Tony Johns The January 2015 AMZN put at $130 (cost $4.25) will be a winner.
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Jpg
Posts: 329
Incept: 2009-03-23
MI
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Quote:The IMF: Please Don't Hold Our Heads Underwater OK, how about this? 
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Sharon
Posts: 4352
Incept: 2008-02-10
Odessa, Missouri
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Having thought a little more about this idea of shifting the endless losses of the financial industry onto the public balance sheet, and thus compelling future generations to pay them, a couple of other ideas come to mind: One it that these losses are probably so HUGE that they can never be paid off--never mind that various additional related overhead costs continue to accrue on them, and that the necessary growth to even begin to pay them is unlikely to be forthcoming, and secondly that there are no restraints to these institutions piling up still more losses on a forward basis. If losing money in business were universally so well rewarded, I suppose we'd all start losing money in business as fast as we could.
The third thing that comes to mind is whether there are any real restraints against governments taking on losses that seem to be spiraling upward towards infinity.
Seems like what happens in a case like this is that the governments that take on these debts will simply print--which is to say, they'll issue more and more currency borrowed from banks at interest until the currency they're paying the debts with is quite worthless. I'm means, what's there to stop this?
I can't figure out what happens after that.
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Semper ubi sub ubi.
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Mlshawaii
Posts: 1785
Incept: 2009-05-13
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For goodness sake, Christine et al, STOP BEGGING!!! It's pathetic. THERE IS NOT ENOUGH MONEY IN THE WORLD TO COVER WHAT YOU FOOLS HAVE DONE. It's time to face that fact. Quote:They see themselves as the great "givers" and that's probably what they are telling the Congressmen. I can't imagine Maxine Waters, who is on the financial services committee, would be siding with bankers, unless she's too stupid to understand "balance your checkbook" or has been brainwashed with something like "We have, and are still, enabling disadvantaged black people to own houses because you know whitey has infinite money and this budget bull**** is just a smokescreen to keep a bruthu down". Boz, Maxine Waters is married to a banker (former director of a bank, if I recall correctly). She was being investigated by the House Ethics Committee for her role in getting his bank TARP money. Recently she was speaking to a group and said that the banks and corporations are all hoarding money, and "We WANT that money in our communities," which I believe is code that she will vote for any and all bailouts as long as socialist policies are in place to make sure it gets to the FSA. Trickle down economics, don't you know. 
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