Technology Folks Going Nuts Over Nothingburger
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2011-07-29 11:25
by Karl Denninger
in Liberty
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Technology Folks Going Nuts Over Nothingburger
 

The buzz is going insane today on this - I think I've gotten 20 emails on it in the last 24 hours, so I decided to write on the subject - the so-called "Protecting Children from Internet Pornographers Act Of 2011."

Internet providers would be forced to keep logs of their customers' activities for one year--in case police want to review them in the future--under legislation that a U.S. House of Representatives committee approved today.

Well, this isn't what it sounds like.

I know the commitee revised things and Thomas doesn't have the updates yet, but I read both the comments and the original bill.

It essentially imposes a "business records retention" requirement, which sounds bad.

But in reality, it's a big fat nothing.

Here's why.

The requirement is that the provider keep your billing information (e.g. credit card or bank account number, electronic record of the check you paid with, etc) and IP assignments.

A last-minute rewrite of the bill expands the information that commercial Internet providers are required to store to include customers' names, addresses, phone numbers, credit card numbers, bank account numbers, and temporarily-assigned IP addresses, some committee members suggested. By a 7-16 vote, the panel rejected an amendment that would have clarified that only IP addresses must be stored.

This caused everyone to seize on this as some sort of monster violation of civil liberties.

Nope folks.

Look, in 1995 MCSNet had online, in our internal databases, every single session you had ever engaged in.  We also had all your billing records.

This was not because we were intrusive bastards, it was because we need to have them in the event there was a credit card dispute or other reason for us to look it up (e.g. you claimed you really didn't use that extra 50 hours of time we billed you for.)  And by the way, that happened a lot - people try to steal all the time.  They'd claim they didn't really use the login time, they'd sign up on our "2 week risk-free trial" that was explicitly one per household, cancel, and then try to do it again so as to never pay at all and other similar scams.  If we hadn't kept the records we would have been robbed blind!

For each dial-up session we had the port it came in on, the start and end times of the session, the number of bytes transferred in each direction, the ANI of the calling phone line, the IP address assigned and the account identifier (your login ID.)  In the billing system we had every invoice generated and how it was paid.

Note that nowhere in that list (nor in the bill text I can find) is any requirement to log and keep the sites you go to while you're actually online.  That would be a ridiculous requirement, both from a standpoint of implementation but also the storage and indexing requirement to do so would be extraordinary.

Never mind that our customer service agents had online access to the invoices which in turn had summary information on usage.  If you called in with a question or needed a reprint of a 2-year old invoice our people would be happy to look it up or fax you a copy.  Big deal.  Ordinary course of business stuff here folks.

What's covered by this are ordinary business records folks.  They're normally generated by any ISP in the normal course of operations.  And every ISP needs to keep them around as business records until the statute of limitations expires on any claims that might be raised in any way related to those events, which in most cases means three years as there's always the possibility of some sort of tax action (e.g. an audit) that requires you to prove up revenues and how you derived them.

What this bill appears to do is to put a fork in those ISPs and other related internet companies who intentionally obfuscate records, despite the risk of adverse result in the event of a challenge (e.g. an audit) and the utter idiocy from a standpoint of reasonable business practice.  That is, it puts a fork in those "firms" that market themselves indirectly to or are otherwise "friendly" toward those who engage in various illegal acts online, including but certainly not limited to kiddie porn.

I see no problem with this bill.  It would alter exactly nothing in regard to how we did business in the 1990s; every record they're calling for an ISP to retain we already retained for far longer than they required.  We did it not do it to spy but for perfectly-legitimate business purpose - specifically the ability to defend, if necessary, any business-related action we might wind up involved in.

And yes, we were occasionally subpoenaed, including by agencies looking for information related to kiddie porn distribution or consumption.  I have no problem with that either - the subpoenas were lawful documents issued by a judge that had binding jurisdiction over our operations.  We got paid for the cost of compliance and we did what we were ordered to by that court of competent jurisdiction in each and every case, just as I will if I am served with such a subpoena as the operator of Tickerforum.

Perhaps someone can tell me how a bill that does not in any way impose a requirement that any legitimate ISP operating as a legitimate business will not be doing anyway is somehow violative of people's privacy rights?  The law enforcement agency that wants the records has to get a legitimate subpoena signed by a judge citing lawful authority for the request and serve it upon the ISP, exactly as they do now.

What's the problem?

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User Info Technology Folks Going Nuts Over Nothingburger in forum [Market-Ticker]
Attilahooper
Posts: 2006
Incept: 2007-08-28
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New York, by way of Montreal Canada.
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people emailed you over this ? talk about paranoia. Hell, the only email I ever sent you when I first registered went straight to the bit bucket, lolz.

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Mannfm11
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Guess we know who the terrorists are now

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The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.---John Kenneth Galbraith
Asimov
Posts: 104700
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Gold
East Tennessee Eastern Time
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What's the problem? People believing that it's "every website they visit" is.

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It's justifiably immoral to deal morally with an immoral entity.
If you trade based on what other people say, you will lose money. Especially what I say. I won't be held responsible. Festina lente.
Sparticlebrane
Posts: 287
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I wonder if anyone on this panel has any technical clue how the internet actually works.
Mezzmor
Posts: 1177
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The problem is that as most of the NFLX and bandwidth consumtion threads show, we have a lot of people in the world who think that the business of running an ISP is a simple matter of simply adding the universe's unlimited bandwidth to your network and charge 50 bucks per subscriber on an unlimited basis, then take 50 weeks of vacation a year will all of the insane ownership profits while you pay your staff 12 bucks an hour.

How any ISP runs a business without keeping the basics of information - loginTime, outBytes, inBytes, framedIPAddress, is beyond me. Heck thats all kept in the stock out of the box version of the radius database anyway.

On the flip side, what you damned sure should be concerned about is that your home wifi network is secured with no less than WPA2 with a ridiculously strong password that is 15 characters or more, mixed with uppercase, lowercase, numbers and symbols, because frankly, yer****ed if a kiddieporn warmapper happens to use your wifi network to upload or download kiddieporn to usenet.

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Once the "Progressive" and the "educated" have completely destroyed the country, the logical, the wise, and the experienced will rebuild it.
Deejunk
Posts: 715
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Now DC - Solar Power.
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Internet pervs are now distracted about being found out to be an internet perv. smiley So, the real issue they are trying to distract us from is?

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http://www.myvideo.de/watch/2451556/The_.... - I'm seriously ready for inflation, deflation & TOTAL collapse of the US & Global economic & market systems..
Genesis
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You have to understand the mentality here - or lack thereof. We used to get calls from people who wanted to buy access and would ask right up front "Do you carry alt.binaries.pictures.teen-****?"

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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Ignorantsavage
Posts: 765
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united States
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The issue is not so much the specifics of what the proposed federal law would force ISPs to do, but that it proposes to FORCE them at all.

In my case, I consider myself to be an ISP. I maintain a purposely-open wifi connection off of my business-class line from a mainstream ISP, and am looking to expand it to a neighborhood-wide area.

I keep almost no records, and the few I do keep are automatically deleted on a short cycle measured in days. Now the gov proposes to give the hand-wringers one more reason to bemoan intentionally-open wifi hotspots like mine: "oh noooo, you're not keeping records for a yearrrr! You're a criminalll!"

(My reasons for doing so are multitude and benign, and mostly in line with Bruce Schneier's stated reasons here: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/20.... )
Genesis
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You have no billing records to keep. The law will not impact you.

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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Ignorantsavage
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Parsing the bill text and comparing it to existing law seems to indicate that I'm already a dirty criminal scum for not keeping the demanded information for 90 days in the first place. The bill appears to primarily push the existing retention requirement out to 18 months.

It may well be that via the magick of legal-ese that I am not covered under the various possible legal definitions (which can differ greatly from commonly-held definitions) in such law. I don't know, but I am aware that prosecutors love to throw a wide net and are often given leeway to do so. In other words, from the text in the law linked below, I see no indication that merely not having billing records exempts someone from the law.

Bill text: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c1....
Existing law: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc....

-edit
(You are, of course, correct in that the text of the law doesn't seem to have anything to do with forcing ISPs to keep records of specific locations customers visit.)

Genesis
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Are you SELLING service? If you're not then you have no records to keep as you're not a business.

If you ARE selling service and not keeping business records you're an idiot for reasons that have nothing to do with this bill.

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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?

Shrpblnd
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Any business with an ounce of intelligence keeps detailed records of their customers. I'm working doing IT for a billing call center now, and I can tell you that we certainly keep all records.

Also, when you hear that message that "Your call may be recorded for quality control purposes" it most certainly is, and will be kept for at least three years. If the call stands out as non-routine, it is very likely it will be reviewed by a supervisor.

The cost to store this information is cheap now, and frequently a well engineered monitoring system will often pay for itself in less than six months in lower refund costs and higher customer retention rates.
Sparticlebrane
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Quote:
You have to understand the mentality here - or lack thereof. We used to get calls from people who wanted to buy access and would ask right up front "Do you carry alt.binaries.pictures.teen-****?"


Wow, no shame at all.
Genesis
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Yep.

There was an ACLU panel in Chicago that I spoke at at one point in the 1990s on "internet freedom" and censorship. I brought up the fact that if you take a package to the post office that has "CHILD PORNOGRAPHY" written all over the outside of the package where anyone can see it without opening it, the USPS has no obligation to take it and in fact probably can't without liability, nor can UPS or anyone else. I further opined that if they did they should be arrested and charged as accessories before and after the fact, as should ANY ISP who knowingly sells access intended to be used for this sort of purpose.

Well that got me death threats for about the next six months on and off.....

There is a small subset of people who really are serious about using the 'Net for that sort of ****, and they take EXTREME offense at anything that might stop their bull**** dead in its tracks.

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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Mezzmor
Posts: 1177
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Leaving your home network unlocked in the name of being a good neighbor as that guy rates is just plain lunacy. The entire point of a network, ANY network, is a line of demarcation seperating your network from the others, and being able to maintain and enforce a security policy at that network border.

People wind up on the sex offender lists for life over taking a***** on the side of the road or having consenual sex with 15 year olds. Damned near every copyright holder now have their own civil litigation enforcement teams, not just RIAA. Having your bits stolen is a ridiculous risk to take on.

If you want to share with your neighbors, by all means, after having a discussion where equipment and standards a agreed on, do it. My neighbors and I have an agreement among us - one of us have cable, I have DSL, the other has wimax. However, we all have Apple Time Capsules wheree we have our own private keys plus a guest key, which we all key the same and know the key, so our private info is private, and we can use each others access is case one goes down, which happens a lot here. None of our providers is what you would call four nines reliable.

Anything else is utterly irresponsible.

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Once the "Progressive" and the "educated" have completely destroyed the country, the logical, the wise, and the experienced will rebuild it.
Jubber
Posts: 14661
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Gold
UK
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why ISP's allow this **** I can never understand, why don't they block it?

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“The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of other people’s money.” Thatcher
Genesis
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Money.

I estimate it cost me at least a million a year (gross) refusing to carry that crap and sell access to people who wanted it.

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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Icanhasbailout
Posts: 9939
Incept: 2009-03-10
Green A True American Patriot!
Imaginationland
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Quote:
Leaving your home network unlocked in the name of being a good neighbor as that guy rates is just plain lunacy. The entire point of a network, ANY network, is a line of demarcation seperating your network from the others, and being able to maintain and enforce a security policy at that network border.


It's not reasonable to expect consumers to have adequate security on their lines. Your average consumer wouldn't even know where to start.

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Jubber
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Gold
UK
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Well when I use to work for BT, there was a policy for instant dismissal for watching any porn at work if you were that stupid, but it was BT that was providing it, they couldn't see that as an issue.

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“The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of other people’s money.” Thatcher
Guydaley
Posts: 15320
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Green A True American Patriot!
Wyoming only ATM
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Mezznor said

Quote:
Leaving your home network unlocked in the name of being a good neighbor as that guy rates is just plain lunacy. The entire point of a network, ANY network, is a line of demarcation seperating your network from the others, and being able to maintain and enforce a security policy at that network border.


I agree especially as it concerns the Mexican border.

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Its called creeping TEOTWAWKI. Just because it doesn't happen all at once doesn't mean it isn't happening.
Mannfm11
Posts: 3620
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Gold
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There is enough mannfm11 on the net they could probably put a tin hat on me. Google it. My point is that it isn't any of the police business. I can see it imposes no business record duty because that is the business. It is just the idea they want to look up your ass all the time. Before we know it, they will be wanting the companies to forward everything into a central computer that reads and red flags every comment the government doesn't like. All of this stuff is available publicly, but you do have to find it. That would be like a wire tap.

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The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.---John Kenneth Galbraith
Abn0rmal
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As long as they don't ban encryption or mandate key escrow there will always be ways for people to browse the internet anonymously.

Genesis
Posts: 131489
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You're assuming the people who want this crap have more than two firing brain cells.

This is not a correct assumption.

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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Victorberry
Posts: 155
Incept: 2010-01-12

Bedford, TX
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"We got paid for the cost of compliance ..."

How about getting the Tea Party to scrub this item from the federal budget? At least get the Tea Party to tell the general public what priorty "cost of compliance" has relative to spending for the Defense Department, Social Security, Medicare, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, etc?
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