The Road To Hell Directly Before Us
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2011-07-26 20:58
by Karl Denninger
in Editorial
Ignore this thread
The Road To Hell Directly Before Us
 

Here's how it all can come apart, and why Congress - and Obama - are both on the wrong track.

Note this story from Bloomberg:

Political wrangling over a plan to reduce the deficit may cost the U.S. its AAA rating, adding $100 billion a year to government costs while dragging down economic growth, according to Wall Street bond dealers.

A U.S. credit-rating cut would likely raise the nation’s borrowing costs by increasing Treasury yields by 60 to 70 basis points over the “medium term,” JPMorgan Chase & Co.’s Terry Belton said today on a conference call hosted by the Securities Industry and Financial Markets Association.

But that's just the start, you see.

Right now rates are at historic lows.  So let's presume that the economy "improves"; if that happens then rates go up.  In fact, there was a hearing this afternoon in the House Banking Subcommittee talking about exactly that.

Here's the current Treasury MTS; it shows total interest on the public debt last year was $355 billion, and this year thus far is $386 billion.  This implies (on a grossed-up 9/12ths basis) that the blended interest rate on the debt is running about 3%.

Here's the problem, in short: Rates have nowhere to go but up.

So is 70 basis points "realistic"?  No.  If the economy improves, they'll go up double that or more just on their own on the short end.  Then you get to add this "penalty" from the downgrade.

We have the government claiming they will "cut" about $1 trillion in real spending (the rest is gimmicks - the wind-down of the wars that were going to happen anyway) over the next ten years.

But if the economy improves the increased cost of the interest on the existing debt will be double that over the same ten years, and if we get downgraded you can double that again

Each 100 basis points on $15 trillion in debt is $150 billion a year - every year - and the CBO says we'll have $25 trillion in debt by 2020. 

At a 4% blended interest rate this load on that $25 trillion will come to $1 trillion in interest annually - just 1 percent higher in interest than we're paying now!

We will not get to 2020 folks; this is, in fact, exactly how the death spiral happens.

Interest expense as a percentage of government, this year, if the MTS thus far is 9/12ths of the total (through June), will run $515 billion.  This out of a budget of $3.8 trillion (approximately) is ~14% of the total federal budget.  To put this in perspective this is about 50% of the total receipts under federal income tax - just to pay interest!

Now I'm probably being pessimistic, because there's a roughly $80 billion "whack" that comes from semi-annual coupon payments in the trust funds, and we've already gotten both of those.  So let's be nice and call the trust fund interest accrued already, which means we now get $249 + $199, or $448ish, which is about 12% of the budget.

And that assumes that neither interest rates go up due to an improving economy or a downgrade. 

What happens if that 3% blended rate goes up 70 basis points on a downgrade?  Oh that's easy - just multiply that number by 123% and you're close enough.  Call that $551, or ~$100 billion a year more.  Each and every year for the next ten, that's $1 trillion.

The problem is that the downgrade cannot be avoided without an actual credible $4 trillion in actual reductions in the deficit from the baselineThis means you can't count anything that was already expected to happen like the wars being wound down.

It also means at least $400 billion in actual spending reductions for FY 2012 and then $400 billion more in each of the next three to four years!  Or we can just do it in two - $750 now and $750 in FY2013.

We might get away with either of those plans, although the impact on the economy will be very significant - the exposure of the Depression we have been in since 2008 will occur with certainty.  GDP will contract and coverage - that is, the percentage of federal income that goes to interest - will actually go up for a while rather than down!  It has to because as the economy adjusts to the lack of deficit spending GDP will contract and tax revenue will fall.

It is, in fact, precisely this inescapable mathematical reality that means that we must deal with this now rather than attempting to kick the can and have the market make these choices for us.

The outcome of taking our medicine will be bad.  Very bad.

But if we don't do it - and do it now - it's going to be worse.

Much worse.

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User Info The Road To Hell Directly Before Us in forum [Market-Ticker]
Lowbeyond
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Green A True American Patriot!
CO aka West NJ/East CA
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inline

inline

inline

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Maybe it was a birdy bread-bomber from the future?!
Captbill
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Arizona's West Shore
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15 months.

Obama needs to keep this can kicked 15 more months. After that, He'll welcome the mess.

Best Ticker Award Right There KD.

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Incredible. There's Smith and he's standing there and he's got the iceberg warning in his ****ing hand, excuse me, his hand, and he's ordering more speed. Lewis Bodine, RMS Titanic
Publius
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Let's see, the MTS through June is 9/12, not 8/12, unless my brain is truly fried. Uncle FY begins in Oct. So we got July, Aug, Sept left, which is 3/12, so through June should be 9/12, which would make it $515B.
Genesis
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You're right - I'll fix that.

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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Vfl
Posts: 202
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Seattle Metro, WA
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The Dilemma is on...

Take the medicine and suffer the consequence, but survive, or
Not take the medicine, suffer the consequence, and die.

My guess is: All the politicians, picked by clueless voters, will choose not taking the medicine route and let clueless voters die.

Doubt my astute, sagacious observation? Just ask BO.
Ktrosper
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Silver
ft collins co
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That's gonna leave a mark....

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The unexamined life is not worth living.-Socrates
The only stable state is the one in which all men are equal before the law.-Aristotle
Liberty exists now in the spaces government has not yet chosen to occupy.-Doc Zero
I anticipate that 10 Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders will blow me this evening.-K.D
Publius
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Karl, did you crash Treasury's server? I'm getting a server error trying to access the MTS pages now. :) Did the Ticker generate enough hits to take it down?
Bearshort
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From 1971 until 2010 the United States' average interest rate was 6.45 percent reaching an historical high of 20.00 percent in March of 1980 and a record low of 0.25 percent in December of 2008. This page includes: United States Interest Rate chart, historical data and news.
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-s....
I guess they could change the rules and suspend interest payments to the Fed, the largest holder of Treasuries for a while. smiley [****_you]

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"How long to the point of know return?"
Enemies of the State: Bernanke, Geithner, Frank, Dodd, Greenspan, Paulson.
Bertdilbert
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Karl, sometime when you get a chance give PDF page 124 (doc page 122) and read a few pages.

https://fraser.stlouisfed.org/publicatio....

Thanks

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Dear Euroland: Relax, Germany has a plan for your money!

Political Capital Defined: We are out of money but will tax our citizens for whatever it takes to "SAVE" the Euro.
Asimov
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They could tell the fed to go **** itself too, and not pay off ANYTHING it holds.

But they won't.

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It's justifiably immoral to deal morally with an immoral entity.
If you trade based on what other people say, you will lose money. Especially what I say. I won't be held responsible. Festina lente.
Flappingeagle
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Soon we will be at TickerCon 00 because just plain 0 won't do.

Do ANY of you guys really see a majority of the house, the senate, and then the president going for anything credible? I didn't think so. These are the words that describe our future; boom, ka-boom, splat, whoops, oh ****, damnit, ouch, did we just get hit by a ****-storm, ugh, whap, and poof.

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Here are my predictions for everyone to see:
S&P 500 at 320, DOW at 2200, Gold $300/oz, and Corn $2/bu.
"You can't build a house of cards on a shaking table." - Tony Johns
The January 2015 AMZN put at $130 (cost $4.25) will be a winner.
Frat
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Karl, I still admire your devotion to duty, and complete dedication to the truth. But, I have to ask:

Do you REALLY believe they'll do the right thing and FIX this cluster****?


I'm sorry, truly sorry for my munchkins' future, to admit that I have zero ****ing faith in these *******s to do the right thing.

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We're ****ed. Where's Henry Bowman when you need him?
Genesis
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What are you arguing Bert?

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I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Winesorbet
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Is there any real threat of an improving economy?
Crzymorse
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Maryland
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Karl,

I disagreed with this post, we have run a 1.5 trillion deficit every year since 2008. Our accumulated deficit over the past three years surpasses the GDP of the #2,#3 and #4 (greater then 100%) economies in the world (Japan, China and Germany) in any given year. The 10 yr dropped today by 5 basis points on the news we are going to run >$1 trillion deficits for the next ten years on a best case scenario. Something is rotten in Denmark. This has to be globally coordinated. Think about it, on average the three biggest economies in the world after the US on their own would have to spend roughly 30% of their own GDP just to finance our deficit in any given year for the next decade. That's 30 cents of their productivity and borrowing in any given year. I call bull**** to this whole thing.
Pika-steph
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Stop the Looting; Start Prosecuting - http://www.FedUpUSA.org/
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"The only regulation that really works is failure."--Rick Santelli
Steph4liberty
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Flapping smiley

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"Man will never be free until the last Banker is strangled with the entrails of the last Politician" - unknown

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Level9
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Quote:
Here's the problem, in short: Rates have nowhere to go but up.


Although rates may move up in the short term due to market events, I disagree at least in the intermediate term. Just look at Japan. Despite their seemingly never ending efforts to debase their currency and flood the markets with government debt, rates continue to trade near the historic lows of 1% on 10yr JGBs and 2% on the 30yr!

There is a not often discussed negative feedback loop with rising yields. They add downward pressure on the economy, which causes people to rotate their investments back into .gov debt. This cycle continues to push .gov debt yields ever lower with each iteration as the overall debt load increases. Ironically, this also pushes the funding currency, Yen in this case, up in value as the debt interest monster accelerates faster than the BOJ can flood the market with Yen or the Japanese .gov with new bond issuance.

I see no reason to believe we don't face the same outcome. I know the argument - "but JGBs are mostly owned domestically". Well, so are Treasuries - and I anticipate the domestic ownership to rise in the future for a number of reasons, not the least of which will be our inability to continue to purchase foreign goods for USD recycling back into foreign owned Treasuries.

This appears to be the inevitable outcome of a funding currency based on the design of the existing monetary system.
Jtmo3
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Missouri
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I agree with crzy. The logic here in this whole market is turned on it's head. I'm just not sure why the 2, 3, 5, 10, 30 year are so low. The only conclusion I can come up with is someone or everyone is still printing like crazy and concealing it for the time being. That or there is a hell of a lot of leverage being accumulated.
Mastequila
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harpers ferry WV
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How many people bought houses in the last 20 years that know what an amortization chart means? How many elected officials understand compound interest? What is the difference between wealth and a medium of exchange?
I`m joe sixpack.I have been reading this site for years,if I ever get a CC,I`ll get a star.

Will a bottle of Johnny Walker Blue get a signed copy of your book?
Widgeon
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I'm w/ Crzy.

It's just so beyond obvious that these "sovereigns" are and have been in fact just printing (something) to buy each others' bonds ... how cn every government on the world be running in debt AND BE HOLDERS & BUYERS OF EACH OTHERS' BONDS?

... unless the level of Hinkyness is completely off-the-charts; which it is.

No. I suspect the "Hard Place" that they find themselves in is not this little "money" problem ... my Dad always said that if money can fix it it's not a problem ... perhaps they've been notified that it's time for the USA to take the fall?


Fraudster
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I third Crzy. This thing is ****ed. QE2 is done, where is the money to keep the stock market going? Where is the money to fund these massive deficits coming from (with rates remaining low). Someone is coming up with the money (form thin air). Something funny is going on.

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"Let China sleep, for when she wakes, she will shake the world." - Napoleon Bonaparte

"Circulation ceases first at the outer edges [Europe and Japan]. It will take a while yet for the decay to reach the heart [America]." - Foundation & Empire by Isaac Asimov
Thegate55
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Old Bridge, NJ
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Solution:
We can pay off the national debt with debt free United States Notes. We can print new money that is debt free to redeem all federal reserve notes and treasury bills. Let Congress phase out the FED. The United States should not have to pay interest to a private bank.

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves, in the course of time, a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
- Frédéric Bastiat

"And in knowing that you know nothing, that makes you the smartest of all." - Socrates




Abn0rmal
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Widgeon wrote..
how cn every government on the world be running in debt AND BE HOLDERS & BUYERS OF EACH OTHERS' BONDS?
They are stealing from the savers.
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