The Stark Choice Before The World
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2011-04-03 10:36
by Karl Denninger
in Editorial
Ignore this thread
The Stark Choice Before The World
 

Let's look at it through Krugman-the-liar's lens:

“Liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate the farmers, liquidate real estate.” That, according to Herbert Hoover, was the advice he received from Andrew Mellon, the Treasury secretary, as America plunged into depression. To be fair, there’s some question about whether Mellon actually said that; all we have is Hoover’s version, written many years later.

Actually, that's a fairly accurate quote, if multiple sources can be believed.

Note very carefully, however: Hoover refused the advice.

And that, my friends, is what Krugman "forgot" (intentionally) to tell you.

The refusal of Hoover to take Mellon's advice is particularly stark.  That's because Hoover, serving at the time as Commerce Secretary to Warren Harding following his election in 1920 during the worst of the deflationary depression (which began under Wilson), counseled substantial intervention by the Federal Government to prevent business failures, prop up local governments through public works projects and similar "management" of the economic cycle.

That is, Hoover believed in "too big to fail" and "federal intervention" to bail out the bankrupt. 

President Harding refused his advice.

A decade later Hoover was to be in a position to actually act on his counsel.  Yes, Mellon did advise the liquidation of bad debts - no matter where they were found.  But Hoover refused to listen to Mellon, and between he and FDR engaged in what was, up until 2007, unprecedented interference in the clearance of bad debts and the refusal to allow those were in fact bankrupted by their own acts to fail.

Mellon had good reason to give the advice he proffered: It had worked just a decade earlier; the sharp deflationary depression of 1920/21 was over in less than 18 months, and the economy came roaring back.

Of course Mr. Krugman doesn't bother to mention that, and if you had a government "education" you probably didn't learn these things.  You could, of course, look directly to source documents such as Congressional speeches and other similar actions (like, for instance, what laws were actually passed - or not - during those years and what they did) but most people don't.  They just read an article like Krugman's and take from it that what he claimed occurred - the exact opposite of the factual record - was undertaken in the 1930s.

In short, Mellonism is as wrong now as it was fourscore years ago.

Mellonism wasn't undertaken in 1930.  That's a lie.  In point of fact the very position you espouse was what was done in 1930 forward.  That response led to the expansion of the Depression and failed to produce recovery.  It failed for more than a decade.

The American people deserve better than this sort of intentionally-dishonest "journalism."

The unfortunate fact is that the Mellon view was ignored in 2000.  There we had the very same choice, and decided to try to kick the can instead of facing the fact that we had built infrastructure and false demand for which we could not pay.  We decided to enact as policy, pushed forward by Greenspan and Bush, to "stimulate" through debt. 

Have a look for yourself.  No part of this was sustainable and none of it is today.  In order to sustain this growth path for debt we would have to post a compound growth GDP growth rate of more than 7% each and every year.

We haven't and we won't.  In point of fact we haven't seen a nominal GDP growth rate for one single year over 7% since 1989.  The actual compound level of growth since 1990 forward is 4.86%, or more than two full percentage points short of what's necessary to make these debt levels sustainable.  From 2000 forward, that growth rate has been 4.16%.

This sounds like a small deficit.  It is not.  At 4.16% GDP grows just 50.3% over a decade.  At 7% it grows 97% over the same time period.  That "small" less-than-three-percent difference turns into a monstrous 50% deficit against debt growth over ten years.

Krugman's philosophy, along with the rest of the so-called "mainstream" in economic thought, is that somehow this doesn't matter, or that we must disregard it.  But their theories have been proved bankrupt through more than two decades of continuous experience.  The often-repeated claim that Clinton ran a "surplus" and thus this was a viable option is not only intentionally false (he stole the Social Security surplus to make his deficits "disappear") but it masks the monstrous growth in debt that occurred in the 1990s in business, financial and mortgage credit, producing the market bubble of that era.

Ireland has been told it "must" implement a property tax, and it "must" bail out the banks, lest there be "ruinous" consequences.  But what are those "ruinous" consequences?

Well, should the government refuse to do this and force private lenders to eat their own cooking, they might cease lending in the future.  That, of course, would mean that the government and private industry would have to live within its means.

Is this terrible?  That's a fair question and one that we should ask in the converse:

Is it possible to perpetually live beyond your means via piling on more and more debt?

That is, those who propose that we should not balance the budget today must be asked to justify exactly when they will support that path, how they will get there, and what guarantee they'll offer that it will actually happen.  They must also have demanded of them some evidence that in the time between "now" and that point they will be able to continue on their present course of action without interruption.

If all of those elements, most-particularly the last, cannot be met then we must instead choose to take our medicine now and slash the budget, telling those who claim to be "too big to fail" and not only are they not in that club any more, they're also not too big to jail.

If this results in the cutting up of our collective credit card, then so be it.  Yes, that results in much pain.  But we have a model for this - 1920-21, in which Warren Harding did exactly that and the economy, while suffering an extremely sharp deflationary recession cleared and rebounded smartly within 18 months.

How far are we into our Depression now? 

Three years.

For more than three years our government has spent more than 10% of GDP.  Our real GDP growth rate has been negative since 2007 - sequentially - when one removes artificial government stimulus.  In 2008, the contraction was about 8%.  The contraction in 2009 and 2010 was over 10% and about 7.5%, respectively.  That is a 28% contraction top-to-bottom thus far, which dramatically exceeds the economist definition of "Depression", a 10% cumulative decline.

The problem with the path we are on now can be seen in that chart.  In 2000, following the meltdown of the Internet Bubble, you can see the same policy response.  In 2001 onward government "stimulated" via borrow-and-spend to try to pull the economy out of its funk.  They failed - we never recovered in real terms, we never saw even a 2% adjusted growth rate again.

This is why the debt bubble hit the wall.  We failed not only to put up actual 7% GDP increase numbers that were necessary, but we faked the numbers we did put up with government borrowing.  That borrowing, however, was not supported by actual output.

The path we are on cannot work.  It is mathematically impossible for success to occur.  We are seeing that impossibility play out in nation after nation, beginning with Iceland, Greece and now Ireland.  This cancer will spread unless we excise it.

Excising it means telling the bankers to go stuff it, and refusing to pay.  It means governments doing so where necessary - ceasing borrowing and running a primary surplus.  It means governments refusing to backstop bad debts and allowing those who are bankrupt to be recognized as bankrupt, forcing their bad debts into the open and liquidating them.  It means spending less than you make personally and spending less than you tax as a government, actually paying down debts.

We cannot continue on the path we are on.  We have over $100 trillion in actual liabilities in the Federal Government when one looks not only at public marketable debt but also the forward promises for Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security.  This exceeds the net worth of households and corporations by some 40%.  That is, it's not possible for us to pay, even if government was to confiscate all privately-held wealth.  We would still be in the hole by nearly half.

That which cannot be paid will not be paid.  This is not a matter of opinion or politics, it is mathematics.  Mathematics does not care about the political landscape or whether you are Democrat, Republican or Martian.  The only truth in Mathematics is that all equations balance - always.  That which is on the left side will balance that which is on the right.  If you have on the left (debt) that which exceeds what is on the right (assets), and production cannot possibly all be diverted to pay the left, then some part of that debt will default.

We choose only how long we would like to pretend, and while doing so the balance shifts ever-more-unfavorably against us.

We must do the right thing, no matter how painful or distasteful it might be.

There is no alternative - we choose only between taking those steps on our own initiative today or having them grow and become worse tomorrow.

In 2000 the total contraction in GDP necessary to clear the system was approximately 10%.  Today, it is in excess of 30%.  If we continue on the path we are now on through "one more cycle" we will reach the point that Ireland is in, where banks will be demanding bailouts of over two and a half trillion dollars - just as occurred last week in Ireland.

Remember too - the Irish demand for more bailouts as a result of these "stress tests" came just one year after the banks there were all declared "healthy" through the previous round of stress testing.

This is what a debt spiral does; the black hole of ever-compounding obligations swallows your ability to pay and, unsatisfied, demands ever-larger capital injections until quite-literally the entire wealth of your nation is consumed - or you tell the banksters to pound sand.

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User Info The Stark Choice Before The World in forum [Market-Ticker]
Soar07
Posts: 353
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And we are now mired in 3 Middle Eastern countries........

What happens when the US Empire collapses? I think the revolutions across the Middle East are just the beginning. Now all we will need is a military defeat to clarify our growing weakness to the world.


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Time to put the USA first! Stop Globalization, Illegal Immigration, Outsourcing. Buy American. Enforce the rule of law. Drop kick political correctness!
Docj
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Genesis wrote..
Note very carefully, however: Hoover refused the advice.


And that Cardinal Sin of Omission tells one all he need know about Nobel Laureate Paulie Krugnuts - as well as the Nobel committee (who refuses to strip the ill-gotten award from this hack) and Princeton University (who continues to pay his top-tax-bracket salary)

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The preservation of liberty depends upon the intellectual and moral character of the people. As long as knowledge and virtue are diffused generally among the body of a nation it is impossible they should be enslaved. - John Adams

Templar223
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As an junior high student in the 1980-1982 time frame, at a 'government' run school, I can attest that:

There was no mention of a depression or recession in 1920. No mention of Harding.

However, we spent a couple of weeks on what a great man FDR was for literally saving America during the Great Depression. If it weren't for FDR and his alphabet soup agencies, the country might not have survived.

Or so I was told.

It's interesting to note that my eighth grade social studies teacher later became the county chairman for the Democrat Party.

I also remember that he hated Ronald Reagan and I remember distinctly being told that my optimism that Reagan would take us out of the malaise created by Jimmy Carter (bestowed upon me by my parents) was hopelessly naive and misplaced.

For what it's worth.

John
Seedyrum
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I agree with you.
Keep preaching the financial doomday.
Although many folks if not most folks aren't listening. They will. They will recognize you are consistent with what you are saying. That consistency will necessitate them to ask themselves why? They will then compare what you are saying with businesses, labor, food around them and others.

CNN wasn't getting ratings but they were, in many instances, reporting the facts.
They treasured truth over the ratings game.

While other news station chose the ratings game over reporting the facts, so naturally they got the eyeballs as most folks abhor the facts. Most folks wanted the feel good story, or who is sleeping with whom, or what celebrity went to jail.

Now that many disasters have hit us and the world, many folks are turning to CNN to get the facts.

By the way, many blacks can sympathize with Libyans. A dictator wanting cheap labor so he intimidate and kills his own people. USA gives Libya dictator money for oil for USA power needs; however, the dictator uses the money to intimidate his own people to get cheap labor to keep him wealthy. Yes, USA knew what the dictator was doing but USA turned a blind eye.

Been there and done that but how many times more?? When will USA stop being a hypocrite.

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USA IS EGYPT May God Have Mercy On Our Souls and Even That Is Not Enough.DIVIDE AND CONQUER
Grumpy_bear
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More SRS please Mistress!
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Genesis wrote..
The American people deserve better than this sort of intentionally-dishonest "journalism."

Ellsworth Toohey isn't about "journalism." Ellsworth is all about lies, deceit and manipulation so that when he tells you to stick a knife in your own heart, you do so because you are told it will increase blood circulation.

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Denninger, Karl. Leverage: how cheap money will destroy the world. Hoboken: John Wiley & Sons, Inc., 2012. p. 126, par. 3.
Peteb
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Sing it from the rafters, Karl!

It was government intervention that added to the calamity that was the Great Depression!

Hoover was an interventionist, and not anything like the brutal free marketer popular history has painted him. His and FDR's actions made the government more powerful, the public more dependent on government, and lengthened the Great Depression.

And Fed easy money policies in the 20's led to excessive speculation and leverage, which were the real cause of the Great Depression in the first place. Remember, the Fed is about price fixing money. No free market there.

And worse still, the lie that the free market failed in 1929 has been used to justify more and more government intervention and debt ever since. Done incrementally, it doesn't seem to hurt, and even appears good at times. But now the weight of debt is so big, the country's knees are gonna buckle.

There is no gentle way out. We are witnessing the inevitable outcome of the failed basic philosophy of gov control of markets.

The next question is how much authoritarianism do we accept in the name of fixing it.

Reason: spelling
Trades50
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And you have those that say Obama is cleaning up Bush's mess. The one person that stated this said their stock holdings more than doubled the last 2 years as proof.

You can also state that if you purchased at the bottom of Bush's 8235 one could have almost doubled their money.






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When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty. - Thomas Jefferson
Abn0rmal
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Krugman: Pure, unmitigated evil
Grashopa
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Quote:

CNN wasn't getting ratings but they were, in many instances, reporting the facts.
They treasured truth over the ratings game.


Haha, CNN means 'to lie' in Chinese. Don't CNN me :)

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Theft is evil
Rickcaird
Posts: 78
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Boynton Beach, Fl
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Krugman also had a blog post along these lines on Friday:

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04....

In reading it, Okrent's admonition of Krugman "slicing and dicing" comes to mind. Krugman is a deeply dishonest man. Although widely separated in his 4/1 post, he tells us that there is a difference between a credit crisis and an inflation fighting recession. But, at the end of his post, he tells us

"...and in which the zero lower bound is all too binding."

Here he is talking about the zero interest rate policy. But, that was the policy he and others advocated. So, now that the policy he advocated is not working and the interest rates are at zero, his response is that this policy is, in fact, a limit on doing anything more.

It is also noteworthy after trashing "Mellon-style liquidationism", he offers no alternative. I guess he believes we should keep all this bad debt and somehow get the taxpayers to pay for it all.

It is easy to distrust Krugman.
Widgeon
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It's interesting too that Krugman & Co. have also given themselves an excuse when it all doesn't work ... from Day 1 they've claimed we haven't been doing enough ... they really want another $1-2T per year in gov spending ... at least that's what they've said. They also claim that Hoover didn't do enough "soon" enough, etc.

Oystercatcher
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Why should I care what Krugman says. I am retired living off my 401K savings and hoping that the Fed govt doesn't cheat me out of my social security which I hope to start collecting in a couple of years.

As far as I can tell Krugman is not able to force congress or the federal reserve to do anything. My guess it is the Bankers and Wall St. that have the guns and money and the FED GOVT is doing the cowering through several administrations.
I remember talking to my Tea Party neighbor about the repeal of Glass-Steagal and him crowing that it was Clinton that signed the legislation but how many Republicans voted no?
Allowing anyone to create debt in anothers name must be stopped!
Donethat
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Debt is the problem and the banks have more debt than anyone. The game is to get other people to pay the banks debt down for them. Wherever there are assets or money, the banks come looking for it. Have any equity? The banks will be happy to lend you the debt to hang your self. Have a pension plan? The banks will be happy to let the pension plan leverage, the banks will even "borrow" your securities so the bank can invest for you double down in some bank kruft grade "A" paper. Are you actually saving money? The banks will entice you to buy a home and send them the money in the form of interest.
Mellon's bank is now Bank of New York Mellon.
Donethat
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The banks have got the game rigged. The banks created all the money out of thin air and then some, and off-shored all their assets through the guise of the derivative business, where their debts are super senior above all payees.
So lenders to banks and depositors of banks get paid "after" the derivatives get paid off to the offshore depositories.

So the Ireland, and the US can liquidate banks all they want to, but the depositors will only see FDIC handouts because the real money is already guaranteed to pay off the derivatives.
Mortgageguymn
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Krugman is 58, childless & rich. Does he even care about this country's future?
Lordhumongous
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The Warrior of the Wasteland, the Ayatollah of Rock and Rollah! wrote..

Look, there are tens of millions if not a hundred million of these fools in this country. They've never done any meaningful productive work in their lives. They think that electricity, clean water, sanitation, state of the art health care, high technology, food, energy sources, etc, just magically appear.

Perhaps we shouldn't be surprised that they think this way, since electricity, clean water, technology, etc, are probably magic to these fools.

Problems can be magically solved by employing their bull**** "logic", which is actually the unthinking regurgitation of marxist bull****. In their minds everything comes down to politics, nothing actually involves actual work. Actual work is done by Asians working in slave factories overseas and illegal immigrants domestically.

They don't know a ******n thing about actually producing anything of value or solving actual real life problems.

They work bull**** jobs, if they "work" at all. This asshat sits on his ass and "writes" bull**** about bull**** all day long. He goes to cocktail parties and swaps "brilliant" anecdotes with similar ****tards about how all the world's problems can be solved if only "those people" would just do exactly as he says and bask in the glow of his brilliance while kneeling at his feet. And the solutions always come down to "just do this" or "just do that". "This or that" almost always involves the government stealing from innocent party A to give free **** army benefits to party B, when it doesn't it involves the equivalent of billions if not trillions of dollars of productive investment and many years of work by thousands of highly trained people just flying out of his ass and into existence instantaneously.

He doesn't have a ****ing clue how the world works. He doesn't know how technology works. He doesn't know how the real economy works.

But he knows all the ****ing answers, just ask him.

Jstanley01
Posts: 8182
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Silver A True American Patriot!
San Antonio, Texas
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Lordhumongous: Indubitably. Anybody who thinks the "parasites" are restricted to underclasses would be wrong. Every strata of Western society is rife with leach****s, Krugman merely being one of the poster boys for the academy's cohorts.

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You can't cheat an honest man. ~P.T. Barnum
Ee4fire
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Incept: 2011-03-24

Washington, DC
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I enjoy asking liberal and gov't intrusion types if they ever heard of the Depression of 1920 - 21. I don't remember one anyone that said they heard of it, but they know about the Great Depression. I ask them "Do you know why?" and I haven't had one who did. My explanation is that "it debunks the FDR saved the USA myth" that has been perpetrated in the public AND private education system. If children were taught about it, then many of the young "liberal" minds would not have become liberal, socialist, or communist. Because they are taught gov't can fix everything.

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“(Politicians), 536 commoditized temple monkeys pawing through the ruins of America in search of bribes. (The District of Corruption) works like a vending machine. You put coins in the slot, select your law, and the desired legislation slides out." Fred Reed. Some editting by me.


Reason: typos
Joejohns
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Just as clowns knew there was no crash/recession coming despite anyone with any common sense KNOWING the opposite, many of those same clowns will now believe it is all ok and just a couple of more months and we will be aok.

You will never convince them that all they have been taught for 30 years or more was a lie and a scam.

It doesn't jibe with the exceptional American way of life they have been sold so you are a fool or un-American if you try to explain the truth of the scam.

Throxxofvron
Posts: 10325
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Hyper-Speculative Psycho-Facsistic Parabolic Blow-Off
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Andrew Mellon wrote..
“Liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate the farmers, liquidate real estate.”


Labor is being liquidated.
-Take a look at the Unemployment and Underemployment numbers.
-Take a look at the record WIC/Foodstamps enrollment numbers.
-Outsourcing and even the layoff of Teachers and Policemen are in fact forms of Labor Liquidation.

BUT, how about the Management?
How many in the Management of the Corporations -or in Government-, those Who were running the show when the system was ridiculously over leveraged and mismanaged; were liquidated/fired?
-Very ****ing few...

Liquidate the stocks.
-Well if YOU or I had an underwater leveraged position in 2008 We got the margin call or simply were informed that Our positions were closed.
-IF YOU or I had invested in a Bond that defaulted WE were flat out of luck and took Our losses.
We could not covert Our status by some contrived Government largess to become 'Bank Holding Companies' or call 'time out!' with the suspension of OUR accounting reality as the Corporations and Banks did with the suspension of FASB.

BUT, Investment Banks were 'converted' and handed lifelines, they were allowed to cook their books via the FASB rules suspension.
Big Banks -like Goldman Sachs- holding underwater -even underwater leveraged positions in Equities- or defaulted Bonds were not forced to recognize their losses and sell: they tendered their devalued stock and defaulted Bonds to the FED by the Tens of Billions and received CASH Lifelines.

YOU & I were liquidated; but, the Government did not make the Banks and Corporations liquidate.
WE were destroyed and the Banks were given CASH against their positions which they then used to buy US out for pennies on the dollar and ramp the Commodities We use every day.

Liquidate the Farmers.
Farmers were by and large the Small Businesses and 'Sole Proprietors' of the period in question: the 1920s and 1930s.
-Small Business have been liquidated.
-Their Credit Lines were cut and their Credit Cards rates were often jacked up to 25% or 30% while the Banks were borrowing at .25% from the FED.
-Government stood by while Insolvent Banks mercilessly gouged Small Businesses and Consumers by jacking up the cost of borrowing from them to a multiples of 10,000% or more.

The Banks and the Major Corporations weren't liquidated; ONLY the Small Businesses were liquidated.
Small Farmers got trashed when credit was with-held while food conglomerates such as McDonald's received supports and unbelievably cheap credit by the Billions of Dollars.

Liquidate Real Estate.
-That is ongoing -in Residential Real Estate that is.
-Millions have been foreclose upon -somehow, often it is become apparent; illegally -by Banks that don't even have a right to the homes.

Bankrupted Banks didn't have to realize their losses and sell their Real Estate, their office towers and branches; but, the Citizenry couldn't get a conversion and a backstop or have their accounting Unicorned™ in the FASB suspension or tender defaulted Bonds to get cash sure as hell did.

The Citizenry and the Small Business Owners and the Individual Investors and the Home Owners ARE BEING LIQUIDATED.

IT IS THE CORPORATIONS AND THE BANKS AND THE GOVERNMENT -ALL AS OR MORE DEEPLY IMPAIRED -WHICH ARE NOT BEING LIQUIDATED.

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DIONYSUS: " Thou hast no knowledge of the life thou art leading; thy very existence is now a mystery to thee. " -from 'The Bacchantes' By Euripides “During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.” -George Orwell
Widgeon
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Genius Right There.

End_the_bubbles
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Krugman has certainly earned a level of contempt that should add him to the list with Bernanke, Geithner, CONgress, all of The FED and every Bankster criminal and all of Wall Street -

Line them up and end their insanity. Society can only truly pick up the pieces after these criminal, disgusting, non-human, evil ****ing scumbag sacks of refuse are eliminated from the planet -

This should be THEIR LAST PYRAMID SCHEME -

------------------------------smiley
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------------smileysmileysmileysmiley
-------smileysmileysmileysmileysmiley
--smileysmileysmileysmileysmileysmiley

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In the long run even the most despotic governments with all their brutality and cruelty are no match for ideas. Eventually the ideology that has won the support of the majority will prevail and cut the ground from under the tyrant's feet and rise in rebellion to overthrow their masters.

Reason: Sharpen the ****ing blades!
Rickl
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You can get Nobel Prizes out of Crackerjack boxes nowadays, apparently.

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We are so far past and beyond the “long train of abuses and usurpations” that the Colonists and Founders experienced and which necessitated the Revolutionary War that they aren’t even visible in the rear-view mirror.
~ Ann Barnhardt
Etz
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Mouthbreathers.

inline

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Legal chicanery and beneficent darkness are the banker's stoutest allies - F.Pecora.

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