Romanbiko:

You STILL have NOT answered My questions.


1. WHO DOES & WHO DOES NOT DESERVE PAY, BENEFITS & A PENSION THAT IS COMMENSURATE WITH THAT OF PUBLIC EMPLOYEES?

2. WHERE EXACTLY IS THE MONEY TO COME FROM TO PROVIDE THESE COMMENSURATE PAY & BENEFIT & RETIREMENT PACKAGES TO EVERYONE WHO DESERVES THEM?

Throx,

I think he was limited to two posts. But your points are valid. Why are certain groups singled out and others not? My mother is an ER nurse. She works 40-60 hours per week in the ER, saving lives and/or dealing with idiots all day. She's not in a union. Why the **** should she pay ONE PENNY MORE IN TAXES to pay for some fat-ass teacher who feels ENTITLED to more of her money? I'm sick and tired of the "we deserve it" argument. It's played out.

Your second point is, well, more to the point. We're out of money. The end.

"If you work for the Gov - at any level - you should not be allowed to vote. For any level. 5 years after you quit/retire/get fired then you should be allowed to vote.
If you accept any welfare program, you should not be allowed to vote. Time to restrict the franchise."

Hey, why not be a traditionalist and limit the franchise to white property owners.

"Let's get into the Republican time machine and pay a visit to union-free America. In the good old days, the concept of a "living wage" was a good laugh for business owners. Plenty of hungry immigrants were ready to take the job of any worker stupid enough to complain about wages or working conditions. Labor organizers were beaten and killed. Strikes were broken by mercenary thugs and troops."

Excellent point. Some people treat the "free" market like religion and get on their knees to worship corporations. We have utterly forgotten our history when corporations fu*ked over their workers, the environment, etc. Without unions there would be no 40 hour work week (and yes, I know some of you people work 200 hours a week), no overtime, no weekend, no child labor laws, no work safety laws, etc.

"The Governor of Wisconsin should immediately declare a State Emergency and the date for Special Elections to fill the Senatorial Vacancies."

Hell, just use Homeland Security to find them (like Delay did in Texas). Part of being a Republic is having parliamentary RULES to follow. But some of you think that if you don't get your way then its time to abandon the rules. Thanks for showing your true colors.

An email from a union organizer ... we do agree on one thing.

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The wealthy meanwhile, are doing quite well, thank you! It was the wealthiest, who least need it, who've been the recepients of billions of dollars in tax cuts, then massive bail outs, ALL paid for from public treasuries! Shouldn't we look at the actual solutions to real problems, & look at recouping public monies & using them for needed services. Doesn't asking the wealtiest to put back just a bit of the billions they got from the pubilic till sound better than taking away what families and communities need to survive?

As someone mentioned above, the Wall Street banksters are indeed laughing their asses off ... the battle they should have been fighting is being fought amongst the peasants. How did they manage THAT?

JUST REMEMBER THIS IS ALL COMING TO A TOWN NEAR YOU BECAUSE THE MATH DOESN'T WORK AND YOU CAN'T SPEND MORE THAN YOU MAKE.

Eleua wrote..

Agreed.

Now, what about private unions? Should they be outlawed if they are getting too uppity?

Outlawed? No.

Union labor in a private corporation is fine, with one proviso: They may negotiate and have a "closed shop" contract, but management always retains the right to fire all of them collectively, just as they retain the right to strike collectively.

Equal rights. You want the right to compel membership and collectively bargain, that's fine. The company reserves the right to collectively fire and replace.

The latter option is extremely expense, and thus pure economic reasons make it an option that will not be taken except under extreme circumstances. But without that right there is no parity in rights and no equality of position.

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If you work for the Gov - at any level - you should not be allowed to vote. For any level. 5 years after you quit/retire/get fired then you should be allowed to vote.

If you accept any welfare program, you should not be allowed to vote. Time to restrict the franchise.

One word for you.

CONSTITUTION

The nuts are in control in Madison.

Quote:

Hurrying to approve contracts for Madison workers before Gov. Scott Walker's controversial budget repair bill can be enacted, the City Council voted unanimously Thursday night to extend a number of the city's collective bargaining agreements to the end of 2012.

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/g....

The rich control hate radio (Limbaugh etc.), and hate radio has been blasting out union-busting propaganda full force. Most of the posters on this thread are convinced that "there is no money" to pay high teachers salaries. There is plenty of money, but it is being used to kick up dust in Afghanistan and prop up crooked Wall Street firms.

America has never been richer, but the wealth is being steadily concentrated thanks to the amazing power of broadcast propaganda. So keep listening to millionaire Limbaugh, the people's tribune, and soon you will be eager to cut your own standard of living further so that Rush can expand his wine cellar.

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There is plenty of money

I sincerely hope you are not a math teacher.

Hh, lots of pigs at the trough to take care of, you're right. Public unions just happen to be the loudest-squealing pigs at the moment. And pigs they are.

HH wrote..

The rich control hate radio (Limbaugh etc.), and hate radio has been blasting out union-busting propaganda full force. Most of the posters on this thread are convinced that "there is no money" to pay high teachers salaries. There is plenty of money, but it is being used to kick up dust in Afghanistan and prop up crooked Wall Street firms.

No there's not.

You're off the thread for lying.

54% of the budget at the Federal level is Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Welfare (including food stamps, WIC, etc) and Unemployment. Every one of these is an entitlement program.

The rest of the federal budget is borrowed. All of it.

We could ZERO the entire Defense Department and all other spending and we would not balance the budget, because there's this thing called INTEREST that is not optional. Yet there's no money once you spend on those five programs alone.

The checkbook is empty. End of discussion.

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The rich control hate radio (Limbaugh etc.), and hate radio has been blasting out union-busting propaganda full force. Most of the posters on this thread are convinced that "there is no money" to pay high teachers salaries. There is plenty of money, but it is being used to kick up dust in Afghanistan and prop up crooked Wall Street firms.

America has never been richer, but the wealth is being steadily concentrated thanks to the amazing power of broadcast propaganda. So keep listening to millionaire Limbaugh, the people's tribune, and soon you will be eager to cut your own standard of living further so that Rush can expand his wine cellar.

Yup, never been richer: http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Wis/min

Right on the money. The math doesn't work.

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this thing called INTEREST that is not optional.

There is another option called default. Not a desirable option but still an option.

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One word for you.

CONSTITUTION

That's the first American Constitution. The next one won't make the same mistakes.

Did you all see the video of the firefighters marching into the capital in Madison last night?

Since most of them rarely work they have lots of time off to join the protest.

"Hero's" to the rescue.

Hh wrote..

Has anybody looked at the performance of Texas students lately? Their average SAT scores rank 49 out of 50 states. This is what union busting and shortchanging education can do for any state in America.

You know, I'm getting sick of your pro-union bull****, Hh. My mother is a retired teacher. I know education, and the teachers unions have destroyed education. BTW - I went to university free on my SAT scores, so I don't want any guff out of you about what's coming out of the schools. I saw them destroy education, dilwit.

Geez, Eleua - I have always really liked your posts, but we disagree on this union stuff. I'm kept out of jobs that I'm highly qualified for around my Lefty Greenie enclave, because they KNOW that I'm a conservative activist. (Note: I'm not a member of The Stupid Party, but try explaining that to a committed Left-tard). I also had to move on from my last job because my employer (& friend of 30 years) got Militant Lefty after the 2008 election. He couldn't listen to the Gospel according to Denninger, because The One was going to fix all that was wrong. So, the work for me suddenly dried up. (His first job without me cost him most of a week's work & materials fixing a rookie error by his own inattention - and he's got 30 or more experience at his business. Oh, well...) What's ironic & hilarious is that he's one of the small business owners who The One needs to start hiring workers, and he cut back to himself only. LOL!

For my last point about unions, I'll highlight the biggest problem for this country. Many of the jobs that got shipped out of the country to escape the unions are essential to America's national security. I fault the Republicrat & Demopub politicians for allowing the relationship between business & unions to become so poisonous that it overrode the trivial need for stuff like lots of machine tool, a strong manufacturing base and loads & loads of cheap energy to power all that. ANYBODY involved in those decisions & NON-decisions are ****ing treasonous bastards, and should hang as such.

Now China has all that, and I'm wondering why they haven't started the war yet...

Eleua wrote..

The Dark Ages ended when 30-40% of the peasant labor died off witin a year or two, and suddenly the nobility had land that was going to be worthless unless they found someone to work it. That labor scarcity, such that it was, created enough disposable income and margin that the Euro-Renaissance started within a generation. That phenomenon caused Western Europe, which had been depopulated and economically regressive for 1000 years to leapfrog over their Eastern Euro cousins, and they never looked back.

This is why I am opposed to "free trade" with slaves and peasants. It is killing us. It won't be much longer until it is August 24, 410 A.D. all over again. Rome was the most technologically advanced civilization on the planet whose tech marvels were not equalled until the 19th Century. That 1000 years of darkness was real and punishing. It took almost 80 generations before people could exceed what the Romans had at their peak.

Don't think it can't happen again. It most certainly will.

See, this is what I was writing about above. You know stuff like this, but you appear to condone the Lefty union Long March through the essential institutions. Liberty is not served by ruthless suppression of opposing viewpoints. I can entertain opposing political views without feeling it necessary to make sure that the skilled individuals holding those views can't get a job.

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Has anybody looked at the performance of Texas students lately? Their average SAT scores rank 49 out of 50 states. This is what union busting and shortchanging education can do for any state in America.

Why don't you compare the education system to the rest of the world? We live in a global world and are getting our asses kicked. We are like top 5 in per-pupil spending but we sure as **** aren't top five in results.

These ****ers don't even do a good job. I think an argument could be made if they gave us the best education system in the world. But they clearly don't.

Quote:

For my last point about unions, I'll highlight the biggest problem for this country. Many of the jobs that got shipped out of the country to escape the unions are essential to America's national security. I fault the Republicrat & Demopub politicians for allowing the relationship between business & unions to become so poisonous that it overrode the trivial need for stuff like lots of machine tool, a strong manufacturing base and loads & loads of cheap energy to power all that. ANYBODY involved in those decisions & NON-decisions are ****ing treasonous bastards, and should hang as such.

Why is is treasonous? China provides a more hospitable place for capital and business. (How they do it isn't really relevant because it doesn't change the end result.) Therefore, business, capital, and jobs will flow there.

It's not China's fault that American's want socialism and a high cost of living. They deserve those jobs more than we do. It's that simple.

Manufactured crisis. Pure Hegelian dialectic. Wright squandered the 121 million surplus on 140 million in special interest deals, blamed the ever-familiar little guy and provided an answer in the form of kicking said little guy. Self-loathing elite-worshiping Americans love that. Problem, reaction, solution. Yawn. Love how he exempted the unions that supported him, though.

This is nothing more than nasty politics.

I brought this up last night with some friends that are Pro union. BTW, I was in the minority.

Here is the question;

Define middle class in terms of salary.

Is it $50k a year? $100k a year? No one would answer. These are guys with vehicles worth more than most peoples middle class homes.

Thoughts? Btw, None of these guys (a guess on my part) make under 70k

They have no basis in reality. How are you going to get any sort of logical answer, Medic?

The first thing that comes to mind is many (if not most) haven't been contributing to their retirement funds -- ever. On average, a responsible person in the private sector is putting away 5-7% of their own money out of their salary they have to live on. That's a big ****ing deal as far as spending power is concerned. Then factor in most of these people have never contributed to their healthcare costs, not just premiums, but little things like co-pays. So, add another 15-20% gain in their spending power they have just taken for granted and don't even recognize.

So, before we even START the conversation about actual salary, they're up almost 25-30% over the private sector.

Show me the bankers in hand cuffs, those lying cheating thieves, then I will take your side but not until then. People need to rise up, and if starts with the Unions, that is fine with me.

They don't see it that way Steph. Trust me, it's like talking to a 2nd grader after he consumed too much candy and is headed to time out.