Facebook: Looking For Bagholders
The Market Ticker ® - Commentary on The Capital Markets
Posted 2011-01-03 08:27
by Karl Denninger
in Company Specific
Ignore this thread
Facebook: Looking For Bagholders
 

Don't let it be you.

Facebook, the popular social networking site, has raised $500 million from Goldman Sachs and a Russian investor in a deal that values the company at $50 billion, according to people involved in the transaction. The deal makes Facebook now worth more than companies like eBay, Yahoo and Time Warner.

Riiight.

This, of course, isn't because Facebook actually needs $500 million, right?  It was all a "strategic" investment?  The board simply took the money and gave up a stake because..... they're nice guys?

Uh, no.

Of course the rattling about an IPO will now ensue.  After all, if it doesn't then people will start to ask very pointed (and difficult-to-answer) questions - like, for instance, "why did you give up some percentage of control of the company for that $500 million if you didn't really need it?"

Everyone that starts a business eventually wonders about monetizing what they've built.  But there's a difference between exiting because you want to exit and exiting because you need to exit in some form or fashion in order to actually make anything. Paper "valuations" of closely-held companies without public balance sheets and audited financials you can look at and ask questions of are difficult to justify - usually because the so-called "value" isn't really there.

The question that has to be asked of any business is how do you make money?  That is, how do you generate revenue and from that revenue, how much of it do you get to keep, after all expenses - including commitments to pay other people you entered into (to service, for example, salaries and debt.)

There has been an explosion in user interest in social media sites. The social buying site Groupon, which recently rejected a $6 billion takeover bid from Google, is in the process of raising as much as $950 million from major institutional investors, at a valuation near $5 billion, according to people briefed on the matter who were not authorized to speak publicly.

Again: How do you make money?

Anyone remember Myspace?  It was bought at a ridiculous valuation.  How much money has it made for its owners? Hmmmm..... anything?

Don't get me wrong.  I have a Facebook account (is there anyone who doesn't) but I don't see how you monetize it.  With a valuation of $50 billion the assumption is that the estimated 500 million active Facebook users will bring $100 in monetizable activity to the value of the firm - after expenses.  Let's presume that's over a five year time horizon (an eternity in the digital world, and too long - but I'll be kind.)  Is there $20/user/year of profit (not revenue) available?  I don't think so.

Adding to this is the fact that there's no direct monetization on the site at all - and any attempt to add is is likely to wind up blowing up in their face.  This leaves them with advertising - and unfortunately for Facebook, you're not really there to have your page taken over by ads.  Indeed, on my News Feed - the typical top page that people look at, there's just one little ad on the right side, and it's typically not visible at the screen size I use.  I can't recall ever clicking on an ad displayed on Facebook.

My view: They need the money.  Of course I can't prove that, because, well, there are no public financials.  Go ahead and believe otherwise.  Go over to Second Market if you want (and can qualify to trade there - I do qualify but you wouldn't catch me dead buying stock in a privately-held company where I had no access to the internals of the firm or its financials!) or even better, roll the dice with Goldman, who intends to (they say) create an "SPV" to evade SEC regulations on small firms with more than 500 shareholders (again, has anyone seen a cop somewhere?  Is that not clear declaration of an intent to go around the law?)

In any event you can bet the hypester machine on this deal will be locked on overdrive, otherwise known as "full retard", right up until you get the pump - at which point it'll be dumped.  Whether the dump will come in the near future or whether they'll actually manage to keep the hype machine going all the way through an IPO (and you'll "win" your bet, if you place one) is difficult to determine

This much I do know - it's easy to be popular when you don't charge money to come in the door, and Goldman will figure out a way to get millions in fees - whether the company is ultimately worth anything or not.

Turning that horde of people on Facebook into money is a much-more difficult proposition, and one that Facebook and their business model, from what I can see, has zero support for thus far.

Discussion below (registration required to post)
 

Main Navigation
Full-Text Search & Archives
Archive Access
Get Adobe Flash player





Blogtalk 3:30 CT Mondays
Items To Look At


Discuss The Capital Markets along with daily technical analysis with our Gold Donor program.

Where We Are, Where We're Heading (2013) - The annual 2013 Ticker

Links and Blogroll
Our policy on reciprocal links: Send us an email with your information and why you think your blog or news site would make a good addition - in most cases reciprocal link requests will be granted.
Legal Disclaimer

The content on this site is provided without any warranty, express or implied. All opinions expressed on this site are those of the author and may contain errors or omissions.

NO MATERIAL HERE CONSTITUTES "INVESTMENT ADVICE" NOR IS IT A RECOMMENDATION TO BUY OR SELL ANY FINANCIAL INSTRUMENT, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO STOCKS, OPTIONS, BONDS OR FUTURES.

The author may have a position in any company or security mentioned herein. Actions you undertake as a consequence of any analysis, opinion or advertisement on this site are your sole responsibility.

Looking for "The Best of Market Ticker"? Check out
Ticker Classics.

Visit the forum to discuss this and other investing-related topics; see the FAQ on the forum for information about Gold Donor status including access to our technical analysis video server.

Market charts, when present, used with permission of TD Ameritrade/ThinkOrSwim Inc. Neither TD Ameritrade or ThinkOrSwim have reviewed, approved or disapproved any content herein.

The Market Ticker content may be reproduced or excerpted online for non-commercial purposes provided full attribution is given and the original article source is linked to. Please contact Karl Denninger for reprint permission in other media or for commercial use.

Submissions may be sent "over the transom" to The Editor at any time. To be considered for publication your submission must include full and correct contact information and be related to an economic or political matter of the day. All submissions become the property of The Market Ticker.

Leads on stories of current economic and political interest are always welcome. Our fax tip line is 850-897-9364; please include contact information with your transmission.

 
Comments.......
User: Not logged on
Login Register Top Blog Top Blog Topics FAQ
Showing Page 1 of 3  First123Last
User Info Facebook: Looking For Bagholders in forum [Market-Ticker]
Jazen
Posts: 3418
Incept: 2007-07-17
Green
****cago
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
1999 all over again, close your eyes and pick a stock and to the moon we go Alice!!!!

----------
I hate our Government, but I still love America.
Dashingdwl
Posts: 9810
Incept: 2007-06-26
Gold
los angeles
Online
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Any guesses as to the cost side of their business? Just how much does it cost Facebook to host all that data? Cannot be cheap.

----------
When you are hard and disciplined, you can be principled. People fear you because they have no leverage against you. It's the truest form of Liberty.

Ct1977
Posts: 231
Incept: 2009-08-13

East Hartford, CT
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
I often wondered myself how online ads boiled down to actual revenue for these social websites because like you Karl, I've never clicked on a Facebook advertisement. I actually stay away from clicking online advertisements like the plague.
Irishblues
Posts: 317
Incept: 2010-12-18
Gold
Wisconsin
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
http://www.newsweek.com/2010/10/08/the-t....

That's one way FB monetizes activity - by taking a piece of the revenues that app developers generate. The item above says that FB gets 30% of the "credits" that users buy. [Of course, Zynga has its own issues - but that's not the point of this Ticker.] Even over 10 years, I'm not sure I see how FB gets to $50 billion. Oh sure, "we've still yet to tap China" - and that assumes the Chinese government will allow the same unfettered access that people in the rest of the world have. Good luck with that.

I'm sure as hell not dropping the first penny into FB credits, much less dropping any money into any virtual game on FB.
Goforbroke
Posts: 5407
Incept: 2007-11-30
Gold A True American Patriot!
Just call me 'Comrade'
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
A year and a half ago my kids wanted Facebook accounts so they could play Farmville. I said "no." Why? Because we live on a farm! With real chickens and rabbits and dogs and cats and a garden. I guess virtual chicken **** and rabbit poop and weeds are easier to deal with than real ones.

If you can't get a real job, if you can't find the real "Mr./Miss Right," if you don't have any real skills to make or repair anything real, if you don't have real money to buy real stuff, if you can't achive the real "perfect" body, virtual games serve to satisfy those desires.

Sad, very sad that our society is evolving into one where one's identity, accomplishments, and self-actualization are controlled by one's fingertips. The growth of virtual worlds is what TPTB will use to keep the masses at bay.

----------
We have met the enemy and it is us. -- Pogo
Aliveh
Posts: 4055
Incept: 2008-01-18
Gold
Los Angeles
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
At a $50 Bn valuation, $500 mm only buys 1% of the company.
Digdouggler
Posts: 2808
Incept: 2007-11-26
Green A True American Patriot!
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Quote:
Turning that hoard of people on Facebook into money...


Hoard or Horde?

----------
The regulators have transformed into brokers
Rebbepete
Posts: 16
Incept: 2009-03-03

Owings Mills, MD
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
I have a FaceBook ad for my book. If you're sane, you'll set it up so you only pay per click-through. Only .036% of the people who see the ad are clicking on it. I pay only about fifty cents per click, and I have set the max I want to spend per day.

FaceBook is attractive for advertisers since I can target my ad, for example, to people who like books that are similar to mine and that live in English-speaking countries.

What's yet to be seen (I only started a couple of weeks ago) is how many of those "clicks" wind up being "sales." Right now, it's not good.

- Pete
Genesis
Posts: 131442
Incept: 2007-06-26
Admin A True American Patriot!
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Yeah, the problem is that if you're paying 50 cents/click you need to make more than 50 cents/click in conversions - or you're wasting money.

----------
I don't care if it makes sense -- only if it makes money. -- Me
Bank (n): See scam, fraud and theft. Eat a bankster -- they're low-carb.
What part of "shall not be infringed" was unclear?
Jake3463
Posts: 772
Incept: 2010-03-06
Green
Allentown
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
The pump is on. Blockbuster movie, Time man of the year, 500 million private equity investment. Expect some big names to take a share.

Mr. Zuckerberg and his associates need to cash out soon and buy a sports franchise before people start asking how the hell their business model actually makes any money and where growth comes from.
Buck350
Posts: 1349
Incept: 2008-10-22
Green
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
I've believed for a long time that FB will ultimately be the biggest legal blackmail racket in history.

Picture this: you've spent 10+ years sharing all manner of youthful exuberance and sketchy associations. For free.

Now you are an adult. Facebook is offering data mining to "Marketing Partners". How much would you pay every year for "Enhanced Privacy" to keep your decade of debauchery from wrecking your adult life? $100? $1000? There is no practical way to purge it all, and even deleting your account doesn't delete the data, anyway. Somebody will always own all that information about you.

I consider this early involvement of GS and Russian Oligarchs a confirmation of my theories about Facebook. Unfortunately.

----------
I think Paulson and Bernanke knew early on that Wile E. Coyote had already run straight off the cliff, so they chose to focus on frantic efforts to slow his descent before J6P notices the "gravity" of what has happened, hoping that the proles won't panic telegenically on the way down.
Tickergroupie
Posts: 438
Incept: 2010-03-24
Green
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Goforbroke,

smiley
Asimov
Posts: 104651
Incept: 2007-08-26
Gold
East Tennessee Eastern Time
Online
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
FB "value" due to the information they have. There's way too much and it's too juicy.

----------
It's justifiably immoral to deal morally with an immoral entity.
If you trade based on what other people say, you will lose money. Especially what I say. I won't be held responsible. Festina lente.
Stillfishin
Posts: 159
Incept: 2010-10-04

Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
I have never been on the FB website, let alone have a FB account. And you say 500 million users? I guess I must be the only one left without.... Well wait, I am sure I know at least 50 more aqauintences who have never been near it either.
Uwe
Posts: 6575
Incept: 2009-01-03
Gold A True American Patriot!
19446
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
What's the FB data worth to the US government? Need photos of a particular individual? Find 'em in FB database; after all users "tag" people in all sorts of pictures for free..

-Uwe-

----------
“Whenever the legislators endeavor to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people, who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience.” - John Locke
Jwm_in_sb
Posts: 1096
Incept: 2009-04-16
Gold
California Desert
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Colleagues of mine and I had a much better targeted advertising concept that could delivered actual sales to ad buyers and also value to the consumer as well. It would not have netted billions but it would have worked better than FB in terms of targeting. This was 5 years ago and we were having the the same debates about pay per click being useless. i don't think it's gotten any better. We couldn't get traction with investors because.....they kept wanting to compare it to FB and relate it only in those terms. It was not an apples to oranges comparison.

Yeah Gen is right, the issue has always been conversion from AD to Sale. We called it completing the loop back to a sale for the ad buyer. The whole service was geared towards providing value to both consumer (who rec'd something) as well as the ad buyer. The info on FB is valueable but not focused and it is not masked enough to get valid / accurate results from consumers. That was the problem I had with the comparison back then and it still is a problem now.

Jwm_in_sb
Posts: 1096
Incept: 2009-04-16
Gold
California Desert
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
FB is rapidly turning into MySpace IMHO. I see my relatives and in-laws using it in exactly the same way they were using MySpace several years ago.
Aztrader
Posts: 6656
Incept: 2007-09-10
Green
Scottsdale, AZ
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
http://www.businessinsider.com/goldman-c....

I wonder how many members of Congress will own this stock................
Themortgagedude
Posts: 8894
Incept: 2007-12-17
Green
saint louis
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
I think that Facebook management is totally inept. They have a database of millions. They have the database categorized according to what you like, etc. There has to be a way for them to track what you do on the site. How could you possibly be able to target your market any better than thru facebook.

I have had some people trying to sell me on Facebook advertising - but it sure as hell hasn't been Facebook. (Rebbe - One thing they taught was to have Facebook ads that suck. They help you design ads which will get your face in front of people but that won't get clicked on. Thus on a pay per click basis you are paying very little because people are not clicking) I'm confident that Facebook can be monetized. But whether or not Zuckerberg can do it, well I'm a lot less confident. I think the best thing he could do would be to value it at about 10 billion and sell half of it to Google and let them run it. Those guys over there evidently can figure out how to monetize things.

----------
I'm already visualizing you with duct tape over your mouth.

Cobra2411
Posts: 10512
Incept: 2007-06-26
Gold A True American Patriot!
Philly P.a.
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
At least I'm not the only one who sees no profit model other than fraud...

Yeah they got my information but what does it show? I follow TF, I keep in touch with a few HS and college friends and refuse to fly because of the TSA...

Wow... With that information they must be rich... smiley

----------
Government: A device that allows you to get blind ass drunk and your children get the hangover.

Asimov
Posts: 104651
Incept: 2007-08-26
Gold
East Tennessee Eastern Time
Online
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Any given bit of data has a finite value. It may be small, but it's always present.

The only way to increase the value of any given bit of data is to introduce it into a collection of other data where it can be compared and possibly used.

The larger the collection of data, the more comparisons and conclusions can be formed, therefore the more valuable that random bit of data is.

Google has one of the largest collections of data in the world, and values data for data's sake. The fact that there is a lot of personal information that can't be LEGALLY obtained elsewhere would make FB a valuable asset.

I have no way to judge what the data might actually be worth. I can only see that it is a valuable resource for the data junkies.

----------
It's justifiably immoral to deal morally with an immoral entity.
If you trade based on what other people say, you will lose money. Especially what I say. I won't be held responsible. Festina lente.
Bigsapper
Posts: 2471
Incept: 2010-06-25
Gold
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Quote:
The fact that there is a lot of personal information that can't be LEGALLY obtained elsewhere would make FB a valuable asset.


Bingo.
Goforbroke
Posts: 5407
Incept: 2007-11-30
Gold A True American Patriot!
Just call me 'Comrade'
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
Quote:
I consider this early involvement of GS and Russian Oligarchs a confirmation of my theories about Facebook.
Something's up other than just advertising revenue ... these folks aren't stupid. In information lies their power.

Yet again, sheeple in search of the "free" entertainment/application have sold their long-term futures.

----------
We have met the enemy and it is us. -- Pogo
Financial
Posts: 84
Incept: 2010-12-08
Green
Iowa
Report This As A Bad Post Add To Your Ignored User List
If you have a lot of fans on your facebook page and advertise with that kind of base involved, you get the benefit of a "trusted" ad that is "sponsored" by your friend... like "Check out Threadless, your friend Jake likes it" ... those can be extremely effective.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/c....

http://www.performics.com/performance-ma....
Login Register Top Blog Top Blog Topics FAQ
Showing Page 1 of 3  First123Last