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| Well Well Well.... Banks Aided Madoff? in forum [Market-Ticker]
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Throxxofvron
Posts: 10324
Incept: 2009-02-17
Hyper-Speculative Psycho-Facsistic Parabolic Blow-Off
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Cayman Islands Postcard sez:
'I wish Your dollars were here.'
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DIONYSUS: " Thou hast no knowledge of the life thou art leading; thy very existence is now a mystery to thee. " -from 'The Bacchantes' By Euripides “During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.” -George Orwell
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Spence
Posts: 2548
Incept: 2009-09-11
Online
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It will be very interesting if this makes it to court, would love to see them squirm. Also in the news, a Madoff wanna-be Ponzi scammer was arrested in LA this week. It was only $11M, chump change compared to Madoff. http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?sectio....Excerpt: Quote:BEVERLY HILLS, Calif. (KABC) -- Federal authorities say the owner of a Beverly Hills consignment store on Bedford Drive was running a Bernie Madoff-type Ponzi scheme and swindled $10.9 million from 180 investors.
Half of those investors lost most of their money, prosecutors allege.
"It is just egregious. It's a stinging loss. It's a betrayal of their trust," said assistant U.S. attorney Kerry O'Neil.
Rosi Ray, 56, also known as "Rose Ray" and "Gloria Lujan," was arrested at her store on Thursday and is accused of five counts of wire fraud.
According to federal investigators, Ray told investors she would use their money to buy court-ordered monetary settlement annuities from accident victims over a two-year period.
"The defendant lied to her investors, said she would purchase those annuities at a discount, and in turn, go to an insurance company and get the full amount of the settlement in a lump sum and hence make the profit from the difference, and investors believed her," O'Neil explained.
Federal prosecutors believe Ray, who lived in a Beverly Hills duplex, never made any investments but rather used the $10.9 million to pay personal and business expenses. She also allegedly purchased car racing equipment for her son, Keeter Ray. |
Detersbb
Posts: 93
Incept: 2010-10-20
Banned
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I hold no hope of there being a criminal prosecution, but I do find it interesting that these same 2 banks are also named in multiple and for certain1 RICO suit for alleged silver market manipulation that some analysts feel have some merit. Again I do not hope for much of anything to really come of these either because it is those who have money that make the rules and banks within the federal reserve system appear to have ample supply if need be judging by the $9 trillion in borrowed monies.
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Bohemian
Posts: 9658
Incept: 2010-07-27
California
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The first person to do an extensive interview with Bernie in prison where he spills the beans on the entire banking racket will be very, very wealthy and have a nice book.
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"The politicians are put there to give you the idea you have freedom of choice. You don't. You have no choice; you have owners. They own you. They own everything." - George Carlin
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Laststand
Posts: 76
Incept: 2009-11-16
Ellicott City, MD
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@ Bohemian:
Or will be dead when he gets out of the prison or tries to find a publisher for the said book, but if he can get it to wikileaks in time just maybe that person will remembered as one of the greatest investigators that unveiled the largest scheme in history.
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Azusgm
Posts: 2399
Incept: 2010-12-02
East Texas
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It is worth remembering that Bernie turned himself in (okay, had his sons turn him in) then copped a plea. He never had to testify in open court. He never had to give a deposition to be used in open court. He now resides in a fortified edifice with armed guards protecting him. Survival has its price.
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Luvs_footie
Posts: 2423
Incept: 2007-11-26
Australia
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Damn KD,
just how deep does this bankster crap run?
Wall St needs to be raised to the ground.
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Bailout-funder
Posts: 1014
Incept: 2008-10-17
SF Bay Area, CA
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Quote: Picard alleges HSBC helped funnel more than $8.9 billion to Madoff through a dozen so-called feeder funds based in Europe, the Caribbean and Central America. He also says it ignored warnings from its own accountants that his phenomenal investment record was suspect. FIFYa: you bolded the wrong part. Why did they IGNORE his warnings??? (Hint: no, they are not THAT dumb).
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"As we have now seen, one little lie, repeated often enough, becomes one gigantic mess."
"Someone clearly got the best government money can buy, but it certainly wasn’t us."
--Karl Denninger
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Popothebright
Posts: 2756
Incept: 2008-05-16
Bangkok
Banned
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Banks = Fraud Factories.
Period.
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In America the choice of political party is little more than a choice of which corrupt management team implements the corporate agenda.
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Jubber
Posts: 14020
Incept: 2007-07-05
UK
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Wow, CNBS actually mentioned it, wonder if they will in US time...
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“The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of other people’s money.” Thatcher
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Popothebright
Posts: 2756
Incept: 2008-05-16
Bangkok
Banned
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Quote:
The wheels of justice do grind slowly, but their grinding is inexorable, especially when there are people with funds and a grudge on the other side of the courtroom.
But if they grind too slowly, the evidence gets lost, swept away and forgotten... New business relationships develop, and fill in the old wounds. What worries me most is that momentum is waning. Soon what happened in 2007 will start to feel like "old history", and the banksters will say "Oh, you're still going on about *that* old stuff? That was a decade ago."
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In America the choice of political party is little more than a choice of which corrupt management team implements the corporate agenda.
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Leicestersq
Posts: 221
Incept: 2009-10-12
UK
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Just a question.
Why would the banks care about what Madoff was up to?
If it was just money being forwarded from one of their accounts, are they responsible for WHY someone wants to forward that money? Maybe for small investors their ought to be some duty of care, but the big fish need to look after themselves.
If they dont care, then why would they even look to see if BM was legit?
And if information came into their possession that he might not be legit, what should they do? After all, if they are forwarding money, isnt it up to the individuals to decide what to do with their own money?
Methinks that these banks are being sued because they have capital to go after.
If however, HSBC and JPM were advising clients to go with Madoff, whilst suspecting that he was a crook, that is an entirely different matter.
So were they just forwarding the cash, or advising clients?
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Gillianx
Posts: 65
Incept: 2010-01-07
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The chances of this actually touching the banks: is there a number less than zero?
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Mikeri
Posts: 270
Incept: 2007-10-04
Natchez, MS
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Kudos Karl. We are going to make a lawyer out of you yet. I loved your "preponderance of the evidence" line. Exactly correct. And, in a civil trial, every lawyer, during opening statement, goes over this with the jury, as it is assumed jurors only know of "beyond a reasonable doubt" from the movies and such. Next step, understanding the difference between the "burden of production" from the "burden of persuation". Just because there is some evidence in a deposition or such that condemns the banks, does not establish that fact. It does meet the burden of production, allowing the trial to proceed to the jury. And, don't forget, as Paul Harvey used to say, when the defense brings its case in chief, we will hear "the rest of the story". A trial is like a 9 inning baseball game. In some innings you score runs, in some the other side scores. At the end, the jury decides.
Lastly, I agree with the above post, we will never see criminal prosecutions on any of this horrendous fraud. Poor Martha Stewart.
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Jubber
Posts: 14020
Incept: 2007-07-05
UK
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they can't even arrest his two sons, so how the **** is this going anywhere?
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“The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of other people’s money.” Thatcher
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Zzt
Posts: 3036
Incept: 2007-06-26
Glendale az
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" while the Banksters may be able to bribe Congress, it's a bit harder to deal with the court system."
A-yup.
**** CONgress, our last hope is the court system. If that fails, **** us.
The SCOTUS is the key.
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Snowman
Posts: 1798
Incept: 2009-03-09
avoiding yellow snow
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The JPM case is under seal, the HSBC case I can't find the details of the complaint. But both cases are really interesting.
Banks get sued all the time, "that's where the money is...", and JPM has been getting sued before on the Madoff topic. They were Madoff's main banker. One investor group (MLSMK) lost their suit as the judge said even though JPM could have connected the dots that Madoff committed fraud, there was no evidence presented that JPM had knowledge or actively participated in the fraud, and that the bank has no obligation to 3rd party non-customers. BUt something is very fishy here. JPM pulled $250m of THEIR OWN MONEY out of Madoff's accounts before the **** hit the fan, but so far no one has proven that JPM KNEW about the fraud BEFORE they pulled the money (they claim something wasn't right...). Common sense yes of course, but you need proof. I am lost for words that JPM isn't getting nailed on KYC negligence, but we all know "due diligence and know your customer" doesn't seem ever to be enforced.
HSBC is very different. Here, HSBC actually setting up feeder operations for Madoff, hedged their positions, did the custody etc etc. It appears to be a really symbiotic business deal. They also had (not mentioned in this suit) many feeder funds from their Asian business (HSBC bread and butter). But I would love to see what proof Picard has. It needs to be pretty rock solid and many, many law firms have tried, without success. I don't think anyone has been able to connect all the dots, the law firms seem to poke at one place or another. HSBC can claim stupidity, which isn't illegal.
maybe wikileaks may have answers.
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Joesswan
Posts: 583
Incept: 2008-10-24
The Rust Belt
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Indeed Snowman... all of this comes out after the Bankileaks threat. I assume the trustee suit is civil not criminal as well... I lamented at the time that Madoff was able to plead. I assume to save his family, but now we are starting to see why... and just how far up into the banks and government does this go?
The black swan?
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When Jefferson spoke of "my country," he was referring to Virginia.
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End_the_bubbles
Posts: 9519
Incept: 2009-03-25
The New 3rd World
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The banks always knew he was running a scam. How could they NOT know? He never made trades with the money. The banks were complicit in the scam all along.....
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In the long run even the most despotic governments with all their brutality and cruelty are no match for ideas. Eventually the ideology that has won the support of the majority will prevail and cut the ground from under the tyrant's feet and rise in rebellion to overthrow their masters.
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Damnitalready
Posts: 158
Incept: 2009-12-07
Texas
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Give JPM & HSBC time to give their side of the story, then wikileaks breaks the story with proof that JPM and HSBC are lying.
My (albeit weak) prediction...
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Steelhead23
Posts: 2041
Incept: 2008-09-09
Portland OR
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KYC - Know your customer - banks don't have customers, they have counterparties. From HFC, to front-running customer purchases, to shorting products they originated and sold, the big banks are giant frauds. As such, aiding and abetting Madoff is merely business as usual.
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"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" —Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild Benjamin Bernanke
For-profit commercial banks are a menace and should be eradicated
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Snowman
Posts: 1798
Incept: 2009-03-09
avoiding yellow snow
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@steel +1,000
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Steelhead23
Posts: 2041
Incept: 2008-09-09
Portland OR
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BTW- One wonders if a bankruptcy trustee gets a cut of the take. I suspect he/she would because if not JPM could waive around a few mill and "convince" him/her that there was no case. I have long felt that counterparty and customer suits would be the bank's undoing. I keep waiting for their pals in gov. to ride to their rescue. Don't ask me how, but I'm sure they'll dream something up.
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"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" —Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild Benjamin Bernanke
For-profit commercial banks are a menace and should be eradicated
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Snowman
Posts: 1798
Incept: 2009-03-09
avoiding yellow snow
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Steel, Picard gets 3% of whatever he can recover (legal limit). So, like a shark he is chasing the money. He's already fond $830m. Just another $49 billion to go...
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